lol you know if Brexit wins or does well in Scotland your road to independence is quite literally fucked right? Your only safe way to make a second Scottish referendum happen is to make sure Remain wins by a huge margin there.
Brexit |OT| UK Referendum on EU Membership - 23 June 2016
- Thread starter QuicheFontaine
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lol you know if Brexit wins or does well in Scotland your road to independence is quite literally fucked right? Your only safe way to make a second Scottish referendum happen is to make sure Remain wins by a huge margin there.
CyclopsRock
Member
I don't think that's a reasonable argument. For starters, the monarch and the HoL cannot stand in the way of the HoC passing whatever legislation it wants. And whilst FPTP has its limitations, the government we have now (and the size of its majority) mirrors almost perfectly the right vs left voteshare in the UK at the last election. It's not PR by any means, but I think it's hard to argue that we don't have a government that reflects the will of the people. Furthermore, it remains the case that literally everyone in the UK could vote against the status quo in Europe and we still could have a parliament and an electorate that no one here wants. That's not the case in the UK (though obviously it is in small pockets).
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Nor can the EU stand in the way of the HoC; we can after all vote to leave and pass whatever laws we want at that point. We don't have these laws because the EU forces us upon them, we have these laws because they are a condition of remaining in the EU and we want to remain a member of the EU and so we consent to pass them in order to do so. If we decide we don't want to remain a member of the EU, then the very next day we exit and lo and behold we don't have to follow those laws. But that means that the sovereignty argument is out of the picture; regardless of which way the referendum goes, the UK maintains parliamentary sovereignty. The actual debate needs to be about the benefits of following EU laws as a part of EU membership.
Sovereignty is essentially binary. You can't really have semi-sovereignty; you either are sovereign or you are not. The QiP would not stop being sovereign unless the EU made exiting the EU illegal. This is why the Civil War, for example, was critical in the creation of the American state, because it established the primacy of federal government. You can't hold primacy when your 'subjects' can leave any time they please.
ultratruman
Banned
CyclopsRock
Member
I know that, Sir
I was responding to someone who said it's hypocritical to say the EU lacks a democratic mandate due to the aforementioned aspects of the UK's political infrastructure. Imo the political process of the UK is a) more democratic and b) irrelevant at any rate. Even if we had Empress Elizabeth II, the EU wouldn't suddenly become more or less democratic. Either way, in a real politik sense, sovereignty isn't binary, and nor is democracy. The interplay between the two is essentially what the whole debate is about.
jamieson87
Member
I hear you, as I said on the last page. I'm undecided, but very much disenfranchised with the status quo.
Quite how we achieve a monumental shake up of the British political establishment, I'm unsure. But it's something I yearn for.
You do know that not all out voters are doing so because they're worried about immigration. These sweeping generalisations and using 'Brexiter' as a synonym for BNP/UKIP/Nazi supporter makes me sick.
It's likely to happen even with a Remain vote. The Tories are absolutely split, Labour have lost the working class and now possibly the young metropolitan vote who think they've been useless on the EURef. Far right groups like UKIP are representing the traditional left base and basically everything is up for grabs.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
I know that, Sir
Either way, in a real politik sense, sovereignty isn't binary, and nor is democracy. The interplay between the two is essentially what the whole debate is about.
Sovereignty isn't realpolitik and doesn't exist in realpolitik; it's a fundamentally normative notion. The notion of rightful/legitimate power is irrelevant to an ideological concept that posits that there are no important terms other than power as power itself.
Even more or less democratic is difficult; it is amenable to different degrees (unlike sovereignty), but there are so many different conceptions of democracy that determining what less/more democratic is becomes close to impossible. For example, one could argue that we actually have more democracy as a result of being part of the EU - we can elect a national government to hold our European government accountable and vice versa.
If we're going to have this argument, and going to have it in a constructive sense, we need to be a) precise about the terms we are using, and b) explain either why they are important or should be important. For example, I think there's an argument against the European Union (or at least, against anything more than a very skeletal European Union) that says that small communities tend to be more homogeneous than large communities, because they are more homogeneous democratic outcomes tend to advantage everyone rather than being zero-sum, and therefore wherever possible we should keep democratic decisions to the lowest level they can be decided at, because this produces mutually beneficial rather than zero-sum outcomes. There are counter-arguments to this, but the point is that it's a clear and structured argument that identifies a genuine problem.What we're mostly getting from leave is the idea that the EU is somehow a sinister cabal of the LuxemBorg chosen by Juncker to impose banana regulations on the innocent land of Blighty.
QuicheFontaine
Member
I consider the side that first resorts to avatar quoting and reaction gifs to have lost the argument ;-)
Halph n Halph
Member
Even the worst predictions from economists are that the impact of a leave vote will not be anything like as bad as the banking crisis we have just endured.
jamieson87
Member
I agree, but who is there to represent the young left? Who is our Syriza?
Yes, knee jerk comment in the thread, however with the out voters I know, it's most certainly true.
I can put them into 2 camps
"cuz teh immigrants" and "we get control of our country back without EU rules"
Both of which are completely wrong views, unless you don't want any EU deals, then no, you won't have any EU rules.
What I'm waiting for is IF out wins the shit will really hit the fan when people realize that
1, Immigrants are not only gonna allowed to stay but we will have tons of them piling into the country before we are allowed to shut the borders.
2, To get any sort of EU deal, we have to accept freedom of movement.
I still think and hope that remain wins, my views on that has not changed but my view on certain people has and speaking strictly from my own personal experience, the closer we get to the day, the more you see just how ignorant the people around you are, the more you get to see just what their true colours actually are and you just can't help but feel a bit saddened when you realize these people actually have a vote in the future of the UK and they are voting purely on ignorance and/or racism
The views expressed above are the posters own based on life experiences and are in no way to be taken as an insult to any member here regardless of which side they vote for.
Vlodril
Member
Syriza pretty much turned more like what came before and worse so i am not sure its a good thing to seek out.
ultratruman
Banned
Fair enough, I know a few yes voters who are like this. I still believe they're in the minority and hopelessly misinformed in terms of what separation from the UK would actually mean. I disagree but respect your opinion.
Personally, the primary reason I voted Yes was to avoid being dragged out the EU by England.
ClosingADoor
Member
Even if you are against the establishment - which I always find a bit of an unproductive term - what is your alternative in this case? A bunch of people who have no clue on how to run a country and are only talking about what is bad and don't have a clear message on how leaving the EU will fix it or what will happen.
All this talk people have against "the establishment" is so useless, since they don't come with alternatives most of the time.
I think we can all agree it plays a major role and dominates the discussion.
Um, the stock market has already fallen more than it did in 2008, and that's just on the worry about Brexit.
"10-20 years" of things not being fine = no biggie
FlammableD
Banned
Bloody Murdoch press...
Advocating Remain
Linking killer to terrorism and right wing?
Who got Murdoch
How'd those SNP oil price predictions hold out for you?
Sometimes it's right to be concerned about matters.
I can't wait to be approaching (or well into) my 40s when the economy starts picking up again!
On the contrary, I thought I'd read that they'd be significantly worse, partly because (unlike the banking crisis) this would be a much more localised recession.
JonathanEx
Member
While possible - I'll believe it from a poll company I've ever heard of...
FlammableD
Banned
And a website with a questionable wikipedia page...
Yeah, I'm sure it'll be all milk and honey for everyone after Brexit. After all, we'll have our country back, right? Even though we actually won't, since we'll still be bound by international laws and treaties with...*shudder* foreign nations. Perish the thought!
I know - let's hold a referendum on Britain leaving the Earth! We'll build massive rockets underneath the country and jet off into space, like Meteos! That'll teach those dirty immigrants!
Oh, and...
...should tell you all you need to know about this poll.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
start-up polling company that isn't a BPC member with no prior experience in political polling?
no thanks
no thanks
Scottish Socialist Party?
I don't know
I know next to nothing about them being a) not British and b) affiliated with PES. But I checked the members of EACL, which is one party that forms the GUE/NGL parliamentary group where SYRIZA MEP's are also in.
It seems to be a sizeable fringe party, anti-capitalist and seems to be very much on the left. And they're still campaigning for remain.
I mean, just don't read the article at all because it's based off some voodoo poll from a company no-one has ever heard of, isn't a member of the BPC, and has never conducted an EU ref poll before.
ferrasvansen
Member
The first post suspension poll from a recognised group will not be out until late tomorrow night, so that rogue poll from a total unknown organisation is null and void, tomorrow You Gov will release a poll on Brexit and questions related to the murder of Jo Cox.
Yes, and Parliament could leave the EU at any time. You're dodging the point.
PJV3
Member
At least it's nearly over, the political boil is finally going to get lanced. It's weird after all this time people can't say we only voted to join the EEC.
I wonder if anyone thinks the same of him now. Detestable prick of a man.
-Plasma Reus-
Service guarantees member status
Wow.
Using xenophobia so blatantly. It's insane.
Using xenophobia so blatantly. It's insane.
Jimbob Smalls
Banned
It's pathetic tbqfh.
phisheep
NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
Yeah, that's an annoying leaflet. Especially since it says on the front that it is "official election communication" and the only place it hints at being from the Leave Campaign is that box at the bottom. Also that mythical £350m a week has suddenly become "at least ...", and we get "less than half of it back" which ignores the rebate again (or possibly ignores everything else).
A few of my friends were taken in by it. It has now been consigned to their bins.
In other despicable news, an acquaintance has a severely disabled daughter who needs assistance in the polling station - and he is insisting that she vote Leave. This upsets her, so I'm going to try to "kidnap" her first thing Thursday and help her vote the way she wants to.
Amibguous Cad
Member
If you think realpolitik isn't a normative theory, you've drunk their Kool aid.
Anyway, I guess as an Ameeican I can afford to take a broader view, but a lot of the debate I've seen seems a little short sighted. You're talking about undermining the institution that brought an end to centuries of bloodshed, and the whole thing turns on tax policy? Does anyone doubt that the continent will be back to lighting itself on fire every few decades in the absence of a robust international sovereignty?
Anyway, I guess as an Ameeican I can afford to take a broader view, but a lot of the debate I've seen seems a little short sighted. You're talking about undermining the institution that brought an end to centuries of bloodshed, and the whole thing turns on tax policy? Does anyone doubt that the continent will be back to lighting itself on fire every few decades in the absence of a robust international sovereignty?
Wrestlemania
Banned
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10153902959309580&id=735044579
You just can't win against this horseshit, can you? They're delusional.
You just can't win against this horseshit, can you? They're delusional.
Look, to be fair they are just after what was, unfortunately those days have long gone.... you know I often sit there and reminisce how nice it was before the Internet etc etc, I dont blame people for feeling nostalgic, I blame the Government for telling them for 20 years that their lives are getting harder because of the EU
Can she not postal vote?
If things were so good as they claim, why did they originally vote to join?
jimbobsmells
Member
He's looking in the wrong place. Decades of our own Neo-liberal and corporate loving governments have done that, not the EU specifically.
PJV3
Member
Nutty, it's like our own government and those outside the EU don't exist and have an impact. Everything is EU.
Wrestlemania
Banned
No, they're fucking idiots. And by the time any change happens they are statistically more likely to be dead than the vast majority of people who will have to live with the consequences of their pathetic yearning for a time before they think Europe fucked us over with all those pesky rules and foreign invaders.
well, we will have to disagree on them being idiots, but to put another side forward there will be people voting in this referendum that have never experienced a UK outside of the EU
so one could argue this seniors have seen both sides of the argument
SomethingInTheSea
Member
Well to be fair, things ARE a lot harder for young people today than they were 20 years ago, everything's more expensive but wages haven't risen as fast, they come out of uni loaded up with debt that they struggle to pay off, housing is much scarcer and more expensive.
Both the main political parties have screwed them over in favour of older people who are more reliable voters, how many times have they promised not to raise Tuition fees and then immediately done so once winning an election ( both labour and the lib dems have lied to them this way, often at people's very first election so way to encourage them to give a damn ).
I couldn't blame young people for being totally disallusioned with the establishment and wanting to give them a good kicking by voting out.
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