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[PJV3]

Wow a world leader that says 'I'm not giving an opinion, it's up to the people of the U.K.' That makes a change.

Lol.

I like that accusing the British of Blackmailing our friends in Europe isn't somehow worse.

 

[Tak3n]

so with the killing now being political, it has really effectively shut down the campaigning.... it wont be the same, all will be polite and I fully expect a 55% win for remain now as like it or not I have seen constant calls on social media for people to vote remain as a show of solidarity for Mrs Cox, this killing as horrible as it sounds has benefited the remain campaign, and whilst no one will ever officially say it, most would agree it will have a positive effect for remain...

after the vote and the killing is at the back of peoples mind expect it to be used by the leave camp for leverage, and conspiracy theorists will claim government involvement

 

[PJV3]

so with the killing now being political, it has really effectively shut down the campaigning.... it wont be the same, all will be polite and I fully expect a 55% win for remain now as like it or not I have seen constant calls on social media for people to vote remain as a show of solidarity for Mrs Cox

Thank Christ, the country is hopefully rejecting attitudes from the 70s that will end up with the country in riots and flames.

 

[WhateverItTakes]

My postal vote arrived, thank god. I was off at uni and I missed a call from the council which was probably identity verification, so I was worried I wasnt on the system.

Now I can act appropriately indignant if leave wins. Of course if leave wins I'll be so sad I won't feel like it...

 

[KonradLaw]

It's not. Being against a referendum is a totally valid opinion.

Take Netherlands earlier with our referendum about Ukraine. Only 32% of people showed up. 60% of those were against. So now the opinion of not even 20% of people is creating a lot of problems with this. Is that fair?

We elect people to make those decisions, because then it is their job to be informed about these issues better and make an informed decision.

Referendums are great, but they need to have established requirements. Like..half of population voting to be valid. If there's not half then the result doesn't matter.

 

[ClosingADoor]

so with the killing now being political, it has really effectively shut down the campaigning.... it wont be the same, all will be polite and I fully expect a 55% win for remain now as like it or not I have seen constant calls on social media for people to vote remain as a show of solidarity for Mrs Cox, this killing as horrible as it sounds has benefited the remain campaign, and whilst no one official will ever officially say it, most would agree it will have a positive effect for remain...

after the vote and the killing is at the back of peoples mind expect it to be used by the leave camp for leverage, and conspiracy theorists will claim government involvement

If people want to vote remain now, or now want to show up for voting, that is their decision. Nobody is taking advantage of this terrible situation in a bad way as far as I have seen.

Referendums are great, but they need to have established requirements. Like..half of population voting to be valid. If there's not half then the result doesn't matter.

I'd even put it as far as needing 50% of the voting population going one way. So if your country has 10 million people who can vote, 5 million + 1 should vote for the option on the ballot to make it valid.

 

[PJV3]

If people want to vote remain now, or now want to show up for voting, that is their decision. Nobody is taking advantage of this terrible situation in a bad way as far as I have seen.


I'd even put it as far as needing 50% of the voting population going one way. So if your country has 10 million people who can vote, 5 million + 1 should vote for the option on the ballot to make it valid.

Yep, it's the people reacting for themselves to what's happening, it's still a free vote when you get to the ballot box.

 

[Kabouter]

Referendums are great, but they need to have established requirements. Like..half of population voting to be valid. If there's not half then the result doesn't matter.

My biggest issue with referendums is that they remove policy from context, and suppose that the voting public can judge what are often incredibly complex issues. I would much rather stick exclusively with representative democracy, vote for people who have a vision of how the country should be, and then let them judge and debate individual laws, treaties and so on on their merits. I also feel like referendums, being about a single issue, are much easier to be dominated by populism, fearmongering and so on than a general election is.

 

[le-seb]

My biggest issue with referendums is that they remove policy from context, and suppose that the voting public can judge what are often incredibly complex issues. I would much rather stick exclusively with representative democracy, vote for people who have a vision of how the country should be, and then let them judge and debate individual laws, treaties and so on on their merits. I also feel like referendums, being about a single issue, are much easier to be dominated by populism, fearmongering and so on than a general election is.

This referendum looks a lot like the one we've done in France regarding the Maastricht treaty.
Discussions held then were almost nothing about the subject of the poll.

 

[Trumpets]

Just came back from Sweden, where I was invited to an Anglo-Sweden birthday celebration and I had never felt so ashamed of a potential Brexit. Everyone spoke English, spoke highly of Britain and were very accommodating. It's just really sad to see Britain trying to distance itself when Europe when Europe tries far harder to integrate us than one might think.

No one is planning to fit an outboard motor to the British isles and relocate us in the mid Atlantic. Like Norway we will still be a European country and you will still be able to visit your friends in Sweden, who will continue to speak good English.

 

[Maledict]

No one is planning to fit an outboard motor to the British isles and relocate us in the mid Atlantic. Like Norway we will still be a European country and you will still be able to visit your friends in Sweden, who will continue to speak good English.

I'm sorry but this is not true. We are walking away from the European project, and everything that has happened on the continent since WW2. This will create a gap between us and Europe, and it will diminish all of us. Expecting things to continue to be the same is just denying reality.

You cannot get divorced and then pretend everything will be happy and fine.

 

[Tak3n]

The odds for remain have come right in to 1.44, not been that low for a while

 

[Tak3n]

in response to Putins remarks

Leaving the European Union would make the UK as significant as Guernsey, France's economy minister has said.
Emmanuel Macron told Le Monde newspaper that Britain would become "a little country on the world scale [that] would isolate itself... at Europe's border".
He said the EU should send "a very firm message" about the consequences of a British vote to leave the bloc.
Pro-Brexit campaigners say Britain would prosper outside the EU and develop new trading relationships.

 

[Beefy]

I hope it's like 51% remain 49% leave. So Cameron still has major infighting to deal with.

 

[PJV3]

I hope it's like 51% remain 49% leave. So Cameron still has major infighting to deal with.

He will face that anyway, dodgy negotiations stunt and onwards he's been pretty transparent.

 

[Kabouter]

in response to Putins remarks

Ridiculous remark. Britain would of course still be a significant power, and would continue to be such (assuming nothing completely crazy happens), even if it would be reduced in stature and influence somewhat.

 

[Tak3n]

I hope it's like 51% remain 49% leave. So Cameron still has major infighting to deal with.

the problem is, if it is that tight, how can it not be held again in 5 years or so, I mean I am all for democracy but a vote that close is a mess for everyone, even if it is leave...

I will call it now, if remain win by that little the next Tory leader will be under pressure to call another referendum I reckon

 

[Trumpets]

I'm sorry but this is not true.

Which part of it isn't true, specifically?

 

[ClosingADoor]

the problem is, if it is that tight, how can it not be held again in 5 years or so, I mean I am all for democracy but a vote that close is a mess for everyone, even if it is leave...

I will call it now, if remain win by that little the next Tory leader will be under pressure to call another referendum I reckon

Why exactly? If Leave wins by 1%, do we also need a new referendum to make sure people really want it?

Pressure might be there, but they'd be idiots to give into that again.

 

[avaya]

in response to Putins remarks

This wasn't in response to it. Macron has been saying this for weeks in private. We've had multiple group meetings with him on it.

 

[Tak3n]

This wasn't in response to it. Macron has been saying this for weeks in private. We've had multiple group meetings with him on it.

I presumed it was as the article said this

Mr Macron's comments were published after remarks by Russian President Vladimir Putin, who suggested Prime Minister David Cameron, who favours staying in the EU, may have called the referendum to "blackmail" or "scare" Europe.

 

[Tak3n]

Why exactly? If Leave wins by 1%, do we also need a new referendum to make sure people really want it?

Pressure might be there, but they'd be idiots to give into that again.

I know but that is so tight, I just think if one or the other wins it by that small amount the other side will instantly be calling for another one

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

the problem is, if it is that tight, how can it not be held again in 5 years or so, I mean I am all for democracy but a vote that close is a mess for everyone, even if it is leave...

I will call it now, if remain win by that little the next Tory leader will be under pressure to call another referendum I reckon

Because the referendum is supposed to settle the issue for this generation, not become part of an ongoing saga

Same reason there shouldn't be another Scottish referendum for another forty years at least.

 

[avaya]

If remain win we will not face another vote on this for a long time. Suffice to say the business community is seething with Cameron over this.

 

[PJV3]

A close result is when a referendum causes more problems than it solves, it's been a fucking disaster and seriously thinking about holding another one is the worst idea I've heard.

 

[Tak3n]

If remain win we will not face another vote on this for a long time. Suffice to say the business community is seething with Cameron over this.

Now that I do understand

 

[Maledict]

So lets say Leave wins, by a small margin.

Cameron resigns, and Boris calls a new general election (as has been expected). A majority of MPs then campaign on staying in the EU (as the majority of parliament is pro-EU).

What then happens - the newly elected MPs will have a fresher mandate to use parliament to stop leave happening? given the election would be called fairly swiftly the party base won't have the time to deselect and chose new MPs for each area, so it's incredibly unlikely that parliament wouldn't have a majority of MPs who are pro-europe.

It's an interesting question - which would have the more appropriate mandate?

 

[avaya]

So lets say Leave wins, by a small margin.

Cameron resigns, and Boris calls a new general election (as has been expected). A majority of MPs then campaign on staying in the EU (as the majority of parliament is pro-EU).

What then happens - the newly elected MPs will have a fresher mandate to use parliament to stop leave happening? given the election would be called fairly swiftly the party base won't have the time to deselect and chose new MPs for each area, so it's incredibly unlikely that parliament wouldn't have a majority of MPs who are pro-europe.

It's an interesting question - which would have the more appropriate mandate?

We'd stay. Depends on turnout. But we'd stay. economy would tank while it happened though.

 

[Tak3n]

A close result is when a referendum causes more problems than it solves, it's been a fucking disaster and holding another one is the worst idea I've heard.

I fully accept that I will be wrong, but I just don't see how it settles the issue if remain wins with 51% and puts the EU issue to bed....however I fully expect people who want to remain to say it does, just like leave would, but in reality I suspect something different....Of course Cameron will take the win, after all is his party in power with just about 36% of the vote, so he does not care

 

[PJV3]

I fully accept that I will be wrong, but I just don't see how it settles the issue if remain wins with 51% and puts the EU issue to bed....

however I fully expect people who want to remain to say it does, just like leave would, but in reality I suspect something different....

Of course Cameron will take the win, after all is his party in power with just about 36% of the vote, so he does not care

If leave wins by 50%+1 we go, I don't want or expect anything different unless the economy tanks and the government falls.

 

[avaya]

If leave wins by 50%+1 we go, I don't want or expect anything different unless the economy tanks and the government falls.

But both of those things will happen on exit. I want to know what narrative the exiters will spin when the shit hits the fan.

 

[Tak3n]

But both of those things will happen on exit. I want to know what narrative the exiters will spin when the shit hits the fan.

As my man Michael Gove said

"there will be bumps in the road"

 

[Kabouter]

As my man Michael Gove said

"there will be bumps in the road"

That's just about the least reassuring thing one could say in response to worries about economic decline and instability as a result of a decision he's pushing.

 

[PJV3]

But both of those things will happen on exit. I want to know what narrative the exiters will spin when the shit hits the fan.

That's when the people can decide to elect a Boris or a pro EU government. the UK can back down if it wants.

We will see what people are prepared to tolerate to be in control.

 

[avaya]

That's when the people can decide to elect a Boris or a pro EU government. the UK can back down if it wants.

We will see what people are prepared to tolerate to be in control.

This is assuming the exiters even allow the blame to be cast on the decision itself. I'm sure there will be demagoguery and scapegoating to come, not least from the shit rags.

 

[RedSparrows]

The sooner these fuckwits disappear off Facebook the better. You know the kind: 'I see through bias, I'm like a fucking ninja of political thought, I see all the MSM lies and know the only way is Leave'.

Fuck. Off.

 

[Tak3n]

That's just about the least reassuring thing one could say in response to worries about economic decline and instability as a result of a decision he's pushing.

it was just a joke as in my other thread I got launched upon for daring to admit I like the man

 

[avaya]

The sooner these fuckwits disappear off Facebook the better. You know the kind: 'I see through bias, I'm like a fucking ninja of political thought, I see all the MSM lies and know the only way is Leave'.

Fuck. Off.

It's like for like GOP shit tier. 51st state red state indeed.

 

[Tak3n]

Cox Death Impact
Stephan Shakespeare, the founder and chief executive British polling firm YouGov, told USA TODAY he did not think Cox's murder would lead to a shift in attitudes toward the vote, "but the nature of the campaigning will be changed and that probably will have an impact" on opinion.

oo errr, YouGov agree with me, as the tone will change as scare tactics get turned off, this lends well to remain as they have the 'status quo' ace up their sleeve

 

[Graphics Horse]

We'd stay. Depends on turnout. But we'd stay. economy would tank while it happened though.

What if both main parties in a snap election pledged to stay?

 

[avaya]

What if both main parties in a snap election pledged to stay?

The tories simply can't. They are going to splinter hard. The rot runs deep and its pathological.

 

[Mii]

Will Brexit go down as the largest unforced error of the post-war era? Or does that honor still belong with the US over the 2nd Gulf War?

 

[Kabouter]

oo errr, YouGov agree with me, as the tone will change as scare tactics get turned off, this lends well to remain as they have the 'status quo' ace up their sleeve

Still seems entirely possible that the scare tactics that have already been used by the leave campaign will retain enough of their effect that leave wins. The effect of months and months of scare tactics is surely not going to be undone in the span of a few days.

Will Brexit go down as the largest unforced error of the post-war era? Or does that honor still belong with the US over the 2nd Gulf War?

It might, it might not. Nobody knows really, uncertainty is the name of the game here. We can safely assume the UK will suffer some economic damage as a result of this, but how it will turn out in the long run? We don't know, for one thing, a lot would depend on what (if any) sort of trade deal the British government makes with the EU.

 

[Maledict]

it was just a joke as in my other thread I got launched upon for daring to admit I like the man

Sorry, but no. Let's not jump between threads mis-characterising what happened.

You got critisced because your liking of the man was based off a complete fabrication that was literally the opposite of reality - and your own stated reasons for voting for Brexit. When challenged on it, you then shrugged and said that you disagreed despite numerous evidence to the contrary. You're like a climate change denier - just because SOMEONE somewhere disagrees with it doesn't mean that there isn't a consensus.

People dislike Gove for extremely good reasons. You've failed to give one.

 

[avaya]

Will Brexit go down as the largest unforced error of the post-war era? Or does that honor still belong with the US over the 2nd Gulf War?

I'd posit this shit is an outcome of the 2nd gulf war. The Labour parry shred itself over that since Blair shed tremendous political capital.

No Iraq, you could say that the Labour Party would not be in the shambles it is in today and even in a referendum on this issue the migrant question would not be turbocharged by the Syrian crisis. It's all linked.

 

[cabot]

the problem is, if it is that tight, how can it not be held again in 5 years or so, I mean I am all for democracy but a vote that close is a mess for everyone, even if it is leave...

I will call it now, if remain win by that little the next Tory leader will be under pressure to call another referendum I reckon

Turn it the other way around, I'd be immensely pissed if we leave the EU on a 51% result.

With shit turnout, that's a joke.

 

[Maledict]

Turn it the other way around, I'd be immensely pissed if we leave the EU on a 51% result.

With shit turnout, that's a joke.

Cameron's idioicy ion not setting a threshold for a vote of this consequence is yet another mark against the man. He's an idiot when it comes to any sort of planning or strategy - it's just short term, focus group tested crap that always goes wrong long term.

 

[Jimbob Smalls]

My biggest issue with referendums is that they remove policy from context, and suppose that the voting public can judge what are often incredibly complex issues. I would much rather stick exclusively with representative democracy, vote for people who have a vision of how the country should be, and then let them judge and debate individual laws, treaties and so on on their merits. I also feel like referendums, being about a single issue, are much easier to be dominated by populism, fearmongering and so on than a general election is.

People vote for what they feel matters to them, which is how it should be.

If the EU was making everyone feel great and running like a well oiled machine we wouldn't even be here.

 

[Tak3n]

Sorry, but no. Let's not jump between threads mis-characterising what happened.

You got critisced because your liking of the man was based off a complete fabrication that was literally the opposite of reality - and your own stated reasons for voting for Brexit. When challenged on it, you then shrugged and said that you disagreed despite numerous evidence to the contrary. You're like a climate change denier - just because SOMEONE somewhere disagrees with it doesn't mean that there isn't a consensus.

People dislike Gove for extremely good reasons. You've failed to give one.

I did say why I liked him, just people disagreed with that reason, but lets not get started again....

I can just like him, and lets leave that there, no point rehashing old ground

 

[Tak3n]

Cameron's idioicy ion not setting a threshold for a vote of this consequence is yet another mark against the man. He's an idiot when it comes to any sort of planning or strategy - it's just short term, focus group tested crap that always goes wrong long term.

are you a Labour voter, as I notice you don't have a lot of nice things to say about the Tories