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[cabot]

Probably because this is not a nice government.

 

[CharmingCharlie]

Take Netherlands earlier with our referendum about Ukraine. Only 32% of people showed up. 60% of those were against. So now the opinion of not even 20% of people is creating a lot of problems with this. Is that fair?

We elect people to make those decisions, because then it is their job to be informed about these issues better and make an informed decision.

Were the other 68% prevented from taking part in the referendum for some reason ? I am guessing since they couldn't be bothered to vote they didn't really care either way. Now of those that did care (i.e turned out to vote) 60% were against it so yeah I would say that is fair.

Referendums like any tool of democracy are an imperfect thing. But on key issues it is a right and proper tool to use. Yes we elect people to take care of the majority of the decisions again it would be impossible to have a referendum for every single thing our politicians have to deal with. However key things such as the UK's continuing membership of the EU it is only proper that it be put to a referendum so that the entire country can have a say in the decision.

 

[Blue Lou]

This is doing the rounds on Facebook. It's from The Times' former Brussels correspondent, Martin Fletcher:

Appalled as I am at the prospect of my country voting to leave the European Union next week, I am hardly surprised.

For 25 years our press has fed the British public a diet of distorted, mendacious and relentlessly hostile stories about the EU - and the journalist who set the tone was Boris Johnson.

I know this because I was appointed Brussels correspondent of The Times in 1999, a few years after Johnson’s stint there for The Telegraph, and I had to live with the consequences.

Johnson, sacked by The Times in 1988 for fabricating a quote, made his mark in Brussels not through fair and balanced reporting, but through extreme euro-scepticism. He seized every chance to mock or denigrate the EU, filing stories that were undoubtedly colourful but also grotesquely exaggerated or completely untrue.

The Telegraph loved it. So did the Tory Right. Johnson later confessed: “Everything I wrote from Brussels, I found was sort of chucking these rocks over the garden wall and I listened to this amazing crash from the greenhouse next door over in England as everything I wrote from Brussels was having this amazing, explosive effect on the Tory party, and it really gave me this I suppose rather weird sense of power."

Johnson’s reports also had an amazing, explosive effect on the rest of Fleet Street. They were much more fun than the usual dry and rather complex Brussels fare. News editors on other papers, particularly but not exclusively the tabloids, started pressing their own correspondents to match them. By the time I arrived in Brussels editors only wanted stories about faceless Brussels eurocrats imposing absurd rules on Britain, or scheming Europeans ganging up on us, or British prime ministers fighting plucky rearguard actions against a hostile continent. Much of Fleet Street seemed unable to view the EU through any other prism. It was the only narrative it was interested in.

Stories that did not bash Brussels, stories that acknowledged the EU’s many achievements, stories that recognised that Britain had many natural allies in Europe and often won important arguments, almost invariably ended up on the spike.

Boris Johnson is now campaigning against the cartoon caricature of the EU that he himself created. He is campaigning against a largely fictional EU that bears no relation to reality. That is why he and his fellow Brexiteers could win next week. Johnson may be witty and amusing, just as Donald Rumsfeld was in the run-up to the invasion of Iraq, but he is extremely dangerous. What began as a bit of a jape could inflict terrible damage on this country.

Fight back!!!!!!

https://www.facebook.com/martin.fletcher.3998/posts/10154422902371062?pnref=story

 

[Arksy]

Were the other 68% prevented from taking part in the referendum for some reason ? I am guessing since they couldn't be bothered to vote they didn't really care either way. Now of those that did care (i.e turned out to vote) 60% were against it so yeah I would say that is fair.

Referendums like any tool of democracy is an imperfect thing. But on key issues it is a right and proper tool to use. Yes we elect people to take care of the majority of the decisions again it would be impossible to have a referendum for every single thing our politicians have to deal with. However key things such as the UK's continuing membership of the EU it is only proper that it be put to a referendum so that the entire country can have a say in the decision.

Well put. We've had countless referenda before, why not on something so important as the constitutional position of the country?

 

[ClosingADoor]

Were the other 68% prevented from taking part in the referendum for some reason ? I am guessing since they couldn't be bothered to vote they didn't really care either way. Now of those that did care (i.e turned out to vote) 60% were against it so yeah I would say that is fair.

Referendums like any tool of democracy is an imperfect thing. But on key issues it is a right and proper tool to use. Yes we elect people to take care of the majority of the decisions again it would be impossible to have a referendum for every single thing our politicians have to deal with. However key things such as the UK's continuing membership of the EU it is only proper that it be put to a referendum so that the entire country can have a say in the decision.

A large problem here was also that the government told that there was a 30% minimum for the referendum to be valid, so some didn't show in the hopes that number wasn't reached. It almost wasn't.

To me it also says that a large majority didn't care enough, so they were happy to have the decision be made by their elected officials. If you don't show, that sends the message you are fine with the way things are, so continue that way. 74,57% of people showed up for the national elections. 32% showed up for the referendum. That's a strange difference.

If a political party runs on the message that they will get you out of the EU, and that party wins, then they should try and do that. But right now you have a party writing out a referendum that they themselves are divided about even. That is not a good way to go about it.

The majority of people have no clue on what the EU does, what the actual costs are, what the benefits are, and what the downsides are. And there are clear lies being spread around about it that people believe it. I don't think that is a healthy way to hold a referendum in about such a major issue.

Well put. We've had countless referenda before, why not on something so important as the constitutional position of the country?

Countless referenda? I take it this list is incomplete then, because it only lists 3 for the UK: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referendums_in_the_United_Kingdom#United_Kingdom

 

[jufonuk]

This is probably one of the dumbest things England could have done.

 

[Uzzy]

Petition getting a lot of attention on government website



http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...oting-signatures-parliament-mps-a7088966.html

Sure, the 80+ MPs UKIP should have can make their case on behalf of the public who elected them.

 

[Linkstrikesback]

Sure, the 80+ MPs UKIP should have can make their case on behalf of the public who elected them.

Question: since MPs are elected by a local majority to represent the best interests of a local population at parliament, which regions specifically do you propose should be told that despite having a labour, Tory or other majority in the local election, that they should have a UKIP mp instead?

 

[Tak3n]

This is doing the rounds on Facebook. It's from The Telegraph's former Brussels correspondent:



https://www.facebook.com/martin.fletcher.3998/posts/10154422902371062?pnref=story

I am not sure, but I get the impression he does not like Boris Johnson?

 

[KonradLaw]

If people want to vote remain now, or now want to show up for voting, that is their decision. Nobody is taking advantage of this terrible situation in a bad way as far as I have seen.


I'd even put it as far as needing 50% of the voting population going one way. So if your country has 10 million people who can vote, 5 million + 1 should vote for the option on the ballot to make it valid.

I kind of dislike the idea of awardng people who are too lazy to vote. In fact, I think voting should be mandatory, with decent-sized fine (say..1% of your earnings of last year) for those who abstain.

 

[Ding-Ding]

I kind of dislike the idea of awardng people who are too lazy to vote. In fact, I think voting should be mandatory, with decent-sized fine (say..1% of your earnings of last year) for those who abstain.

Why dont you march them to the polling booth under armed guard as well

 

[Uzzy]

Question: since MPs are elected by a local majority to represent the best interests of a local population at parliament, which regions specifically do you propose should be told that despite having a labour, Tory or other majority in the local election, that they should have a UKIP mp instead?

None. I'd favour a mixed member proportional system/AMS so all those regions can keep the MP they elect, while we also get a far more proportional make up of Parliament.

 

[Jimbob Smalls]

This is probably one of the dumbest things England could have done.

Yes, better we combated the increasing feeling of dissatisfaction amongst the plebs with force.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Why dont you march them to the polling booth under armed guard as well

Belgium and Australia have mandatory voting. Don't see them having to round people up to do it.

 

[Tak3n]

a very interesting article from the BBC fact checking immigration, and I feel it comes down on both sides of the argument

Yes to more pressure on the NHS, no Ex-Pats will not be ordered home, nor will Migrants at Cali be allowed across

however there will need to be a border at NI if we leave, and those allready here can not be removed

For the last few months, we've looked into a number of claims made about the impact of immigration on public services.
We've discovered that there are no figures to show the exact cost to the NHS, but the three million EU citizens already here are likely to stay even if we leave the EU. Find out more about this here.
We've checked other claims related to future immigration and the NHS in this piece, where we concluded an increasing population would put additional demand on A&E but the extent of that increase has not been demonstrated.

The question: Julia Watson asks BBC Radio 4's PM programme "If Britain leaves the EU, would the border between England and France be moved back from Calais to Dover?"
The answer: France and the UK are bound by the Le Touquet agreement, a deal they signed in 2003, which established the UK immigration checks on French territory. Le Touquet is not an EU agreement and, if the UK votes to leave the EU, the deal will not automatically be affected.

The question: Nicola asks BBC Radio 4's PM programme "What would be the implications for Northern Ireland if the UK leaves the EU? Would border controls come back into effect?"
The answer: Throughout the EU referendum campaign, both the Remain and Leave sides have made frequent claims about what might happen to the border in the event of a UK exit from the EU. If there is a major difference in immigration policies between Ireland and Northern Ireland, border controls would have to be re-introduced.

The question: Pedro asked BBC Radio 4's PM programme "What will happen to EU migrants currently living in the UK in the case of Brexit?"
The answer: There are currently about 3 million citizens from other EU countries living in the UK at the moment. It is unlikely they would be forced to leave in the event of a Brexit.
No Leave politicians or campaigners have suggested that EU migrants already here should leave if the UK left the EU.
And some lawyers argue that the Vienna Convention would let EU citizens settled in the UK and UK citizens living in other EU countries stay where they are, if the UK decided to leave the EU (although it's worth noting that two EU countries - France and Romania - are not signed up to the convention).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36502534

 

[Undead]

I kind of dislike the idea of awardng people who are too lazy to vote. In fact, I think voting should be mandatory, with decent-sized fine (say..1% of your earnings of last year) for those who abstain.

I'd prefer some sort of exam to test their knowledge on the subject of the vote before being allowed to have it.

 

[Tak3n]

I can not find the data and who done it, but this just got tweeted by the leave camp, they have not said how the data was farmed either... so treat with caution

 

[gutter_trash]

Brexit won't happen. Many people will get cold feet on voting day and decide to stay.

 

[Ding-Ding]

Belgium and Australia have mandatory voting. Don't see them having to round people up to do it.

I know but it doesn't make it right. Freedom of speech is also a freedom not to speak

 

[jelly]

I know but it doesn't make it right. Freedom of speech is also a freedom not to speak

You can draw a knob on your ballet if you want, don't have to vote.

It's a good thing because some people might just consider what they are voting for. Engagement of some level is better than nothing.

 

[OverBlood 3]

are you a Labour voter, as I notice you don't have a lot of nice things to say about the Tories

Who fucking does?

 

[Tak3n]

you guys seen this poll

http://www.pollstation.uk/eu-referendum/poll/

135,000 votes so far

81% leave

 

[Tak3n]

Who fucking does?

I like their changes to the 'only claim for 2 children rule' from next year

 

[Kathian]

you guys seen this poll

http://www.pollstation.uk/eu-referendum/poll/

135,000 votes so far

81% leave

Lol

 

[Ding-Ding]

You can draw a knob on your ballet if you want, don't have to vote.

It's a good thing because some people might just consider what they are voting for. Engagement of some level is better than nothing.

And you can deliberately spoil your vote under the present system, you dont need compulsory voting to do that.

Just because you might be interested in politics, why have a system trying to force others into the same

 

[Rich!]

Visited my grandparents today for the first time in a while. Turns out my grandad is a huge supporter of staying in the EU. He's also a multi-millionaire.

We had a good discussion about it all, and I'm still not entirely sure where I stand. I think he may have swayed me into an "in" vote.

 

[IpKaiFung]

you guys seen this poll

http://www.pollstation.uk/eu-referendum/poll/

135,000 votes so far

81% leave

Open to UK Internet users. No registration required.

Yeah, that's super reliable

Spoiler

/s

 

[ferrasvansen]

you guys seen this poll

http://www.pollstation.uk/eu-referendum/poll/

135,000 votes so far

81% leave

I remember a similar poll for Scottish independence, was closer to 90% for yes, funnily enough the actual result was a tiny bit different.

 

[jufonuk]

Yes, better we combated the increasing feeling of dissatisfaction amongst the plebs with force.

I mean voting ourselves out

 

[Tak3n]

I remember a similar poll for Scottish independence, was closer to 90% for yes, funnily enough the actual result was a tiny bit different.

obviously when I saw 81% I thought this is nonsense, thought I would point it out

 

[ferrasvansen]

obviously when I saw 81% I thought this is nonsense, thought I would point it out

Yeah no worries it gave me a laugh anyway. Sometimes a bit of light humour during political discussion is a good idea, breaks up the tension.

 

[Rich!]

I can not find the data and who done it, but this just got tweeted by the leave camp, they have not said how the data was farmed either... so treat with caution

I work in nursing.

Not sure if that really represents fact. The biggest issue with nursing today is the british goverment - most in particular jeremy cunt

 

[Tak3n]

I work in nursing.

Not sure if that really represents fact. The biggest issue with nursing today is the british goverment - most in particular jeremy cunt

They have not linked to their data, which is frustrating, as lets be honest, people have incredible respect for nurses, so if their data is solid they should be ramming this on every newspaper and advert they can

 

[theaface]

They have not linked to their data, which is frustrating, as lets be honest, people have incredible respect for nurses, so if their data is solid they should be ramming this on every newspaper and advert they can

This is at least the third time in two days that I've seen you post pro-exit stuff with dubious at best sources. Ignorance isn't even an excuse as you yourself have admitted that you don't even know if it's reliable. Why bother?

Both sides of the debate have been rightly criticised for speculating and guesswork - shouldn't you hold yourself to a higher standard instead of peddling misinformation to support your own position as pro-exit?

 

[Tak3n]

This is at least the third time in two days that I've seen you post pro-exit stuff with dubious at best sources. Ignorance isn't even an excuse as you yourself have admitted that you don't even know if it's reliable. Why bother?

Both sides of the debate have been rightly criticised for speculating and guesswork - shouldn't you hold yourself to a higher standard instead of peddling misinformation to support your own position as pro-exit?

I post both sides, I have many a time said I think remain wins, I think I have been fair....just because I am a out voter does not mean I don't like the banter...and last night I pulled down the poll that everyone is now quoting today, as I could not trust the source...

So I feel you are being unfair... we dont want to be a thread where only 'remain positive stuff is aloud' that is not democratic at all

oh and they are one of the official leave campaigns, so it is not like I got it from Jimmy down the bike shed

 

[mr-paul]

You shouldn't be surprised people are pulling you up on the rubbish when you haven't posted a single decent reason why you're voting out. Yesterday you even admitted that the state our country is in was because of our own government/previous governments, not the EU, but for some reason, are still voting out!

And no, they're not one of the official leave campaigns. They're the one that even the "official" Vote Leave has discredited several times through the campaign.

 

[Carl2291]

I can not find the data and who done it, but this just got tweeted by the leave camp, they have not said how the data was farmed either... so treat with caution

It's wouldn't be all that surprising.

A big thing for the Leave campaigners is pushing the "£350 Million" back into our services, the NHS included. Add in the fact that Jeremy Hunt is pro-remain and a fair few will be swung.

 

[pulsemyne]

They have not linked to their data, which is frustrating, as lets be honest, people have incredible respect for nurses, so if their data is solid they should be ramming this on every newspaper and advert they can

Of course they haven't linked the data as it's likely a load of fucking shit. Just like most "data" the leave campaign presents.

 

[The Pope]

Please don't leave.

 

[Tak3n]

You shouldn't be surprised people are pulling you up on the rubbish when you haven't posted a single decent reason why you're voting out. Yesterday you even admitted that the state our country is in was because of our own government/previous governments, not the EU, but for some reason, are still voting out!

And no, they're not one of the official leave campaigns. They're the one that even the "official" Vote Leave has discredited several times through the campaign.

Then dis-credit it....that is how it works....we post...we debate...we challenge, rather than turn it in to a attack anyone who does not vote remain...

I told you my reasons for voting out, I am not going to be bullied into changing because you think my reasons are shit....if you only want remain stuff to be posted the ask a mod to rule on it

and you know what, come the result I will be one of the first ones here, congratulating remain if they win, and looking at ways to move forward, people like you wont, you will be here to attack anyone who had voted leave if we win...and it is so unnecessary.... if you don't like my opinion then fine.

 

[theaface]

we dont want to be a thread where only 'remain positive stuff is aloud' that is not democratic at all

I fully agree. But whatever you, me or anyone else shares, if it's posited as fact, should at least be scrutinised in terms of if it's coming from a credible source first.

I, like most, have massive respect for the NHS staff in this country and though my mind is made up, I'd be interested in knowing what their stance is and why. Just because a Leave group posts a quick and dirty info graphic saying something is so doesn't necessarily make it so.

Hell, I've had a leaflet through my door from Vote Leave saying in big bold capital letters 'FACTS', talking up the supposed £350m a week that's stopping us building hospitals, even though it's demonstrably false. I agree that both sides should be heard, but we should be above posting any old thing that may or not be true. Quite simply, there's too much at stake to treat this referendum so lightly and too many people have already had their views swayed by half-truths and outright fabrications.

Then dis-credit it....that is how it works....we post...we debate...we challenge

No, it really isn't. No one deserves a free pass to make up or post any old crap and say 'prove it's wrong'.

 

[Carl2291]

And no, they're not one of the official leave campaigns. They're the one that even the "official" Vote Leave has discredited several times through the campaign.

Leave.eu has more followers on Twitter than StrongerIn and VoteLeave. They are a very influential group and to say they aren't an official campaign is folly.

 

[Moosichu]

Overhead someone saying we should leave the EU because there are too many Indians....

I'm glad the Gaf thread has nothing like that going on.

I really hope we are remain. The EU is so good. I'm proud of it, in the same way I'm proud of the UK or England. Yes, there's a lot of shit, but where isn't there any?

 

[ferrasvansen]

Overhead someone saying we should leave the EU because there are too many Indians....

I'm glad the Gaf thread has nothing like that going on.

I really hope we are remain. The EU is so good. I'm proud of it, in the same way I'm proud of the UK or England. Yes, there's a lot of shit, but where isn't there any?

Yeah it's sad hearing such things, I've heard it said about Somalians, Syrians and various other communities, the racist undertones in the UK are picking up momentum. I fear for the next generation, hatred is boiling under, how long before it explodes into mindless violence.

 

[Tak3n]

I fully agree. But whatever you, me or anyone else shares, if it's posited as fact, should at least be scrutinised in terms of if it's coming from a credible source first.

I, like most, have massive respect for the NHS staff in this country and though my mind is made up, I'd be interested in knowing what their stance is and why. Just because a Leave group posts a quick and dirty info graphic saying something is so doesn't necessarily make it so.

Hell, I've had a leaflet through my door from Vote Leave saying in big bold capital letters 'FACTS', talking up the supposed £350m a week that's stopping us building hospitals, even though it's demonstrably false. I agree that both sides should be heard, but we should be above posting any old thing that may or not be true. Quite simply, there's too much at stake to treat this referendum so lightly and too many people have already had their views swayed by half-truths and outright fabrications.



No, it really isn't. No one deserves a free pass to make up or post any old crap and say 'prove it's wrong'.

In my defence, they have 100,000 followers, and I posted with the heading

I can not find the data and who done it, but this just got tweeted by the leave camp, they have not said how the data was farmed either... so treat with caution

I did not post....Look at this...NHS nurses want out! I could post a thousand things from the remain camp as well which could as best be described as flaky....

moving forward as i hope we can agree to disagree, the new polls are out soon so lets look forward to them

 

[Ashes]

That would be the Nursing Times poll.

 

[Tak3n]

That would be the Nursing Times poll.

so the poll is solid...that paper is not right wing or anything

 

[Beefy]

Yeah it's sad hearing such things, I've heard it said about Somalians, Syrians and various other communities, the racist undertones in the UK are picking up momentum. I fear for the next generation, hatred is boiling under, how long before it explodes into mindless violence.

I blame the Government for all of it as well.

 

[Jasup]

It's wouldn't be all that surprising.

A big thing for the Leave campaigners is pushing the "£350 Million" back into our services, the NHS included. Add in the fact that Jeremy Hunt is pro-remain and a fair few will be swung.

And this is how it looks like in the bigger picture

 

[phisheep]

Yeah it's sad hearing such things, I've heard it said about Somalians, Syrians and various other communities, the racist undertones in the UK are picking up momentum. I fear for the next generation, hatred is boiling under, how long before it explodes into mindless violence.

I'm mildly optimistic on this. Only because we've had it before with black Commonwealth immigrants around the time of dear old Enoch's Rivers of Blood speech - and things settled down pretty well after that.

Sure there are extreme out-and-out racists around, but there is much much less casual unthinking racism than there was at the time.

I think this lot will blow over as well.

Leave.eu has more followers on Twitter than StrongerIn and VoteLeave. They are a very influential group and to say they aren't an official campaign is folly.

Well, they aren't an official campaign. Because an official campaign is recognised as such by the Electoral Commission, that's what official means in this context.

Then dis-credit it....that is how it works....we post...we debate...we challenge, rather than turn it in to a attack anyone who does not vote remain...

I have been mostly insulating myself from the claims of the respective campaigns, because so many of them are just off-the-wall wrong. But you could sort of meet the rest of us half-way by doing some sort of sense-checking on stuff rather than just posting undigested claims. That would be a reasonable service. But I don't feel obliged to spend the effort rebutting something just because it is posted in this thread.

I told you my reasons for voting out, I am not going to be bullied into changing because you think my reasons are shit....if you only want remain stuff to be posted the ask a mod to rule on it

Honestly, I don't think you are being treated particularly unfairly here, and certainly you are not the only potential Leave voter to have posted. Might be overreacting a bit.

Mind you, I can't remember seeing your reasons for voting Leave (I know, it's been a long old thread!) so I'd appreciate a link or something so I don't have to go trawling for them. Genuinely interested.