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[Ashes]

Whether we leave or remain, the referendum was a colossally stupid mistake.

No. Almost half the country differ on this issue. The Referendum was a good idea democratically speaking.
You have to get used to the idea, that some people don't trust doctors with their health, or lawyers on legal matters, or economists forecasts.

 

[Acorn]

The majority of immigrations comes from outside the EU anyway.

If your issue with migration is job availability, then you would have to assume that somehow leaving the EU (which won't stop EU migration mind you) would be more than the jobs lost.

The funny thing is that the solution to all of the potential hazards of a Brexit would be to join the EU...

If we leave then rejoin(which would be inevitable in the next 20 years imo) we'd need to join the euro too. Great going.

 

[fanboi]

Strawpoll result as of now:

Brexit, Stay YAY OR NAY


1. Stay, YAY
41 votes (89%)

2. Leave, NAY
5 votes (11%)

 

[Moosichu]

That Wales story is basically a chain e-mail that's somehow found its way into national newspapers. I struggle to believe it for the same reason I struggle to believe Tesco won't serve members of our armed forces because it might offend Muslims, though it's obviously somewhat more believable.

And the woman's name?

Albert Einstein.

 

[danowat]

If we leave then rejoin(which would be inevitable in the next 20 years imo) we'd need to join the euro too. Great going.

Do you really think they'd let the UK rejoin if we left?

 

[Ushojax]

No. Almost half the country differ on this issue. The Referendum was a good idea democratically speaking.

That doesn't mean it was a good idea. We could have a referendum on the death penalty for the sake of being democratic, but that doesn't mean we should.

 

[Kabouter]

Do you really think they'd let the UK rejoin if we left?

Probably, yes. What would send a stronger message that being in the EU is better than being outside it?

No. Almost half the country differ on this issue. The Referendum was a good idea democratically speaking.
You have to get used to the idea, that some people don't trust doctors with their health, or lawyers on legal matters, or economists forecasts.

The question is whether or not the UK was so divided on the question of EU membership before the prospect of a referendum came to be. Campaigning can do a lot to swing people who either didn't care or who felt differently.

 

[Ghost]

I found http://fullfact.org this morning thanks to a facebook friend, I'm reading it now imagining that it's the only place the campaign exists, it's nice.

Favourite fact so far:

Immigrants and public services

There are about 3 million EU citizens currently living in the UK. The evidence suggests that impacts on jobs and wages have been small, and are most likely to affect lower-skilled workers.

Recently arrived EU immigrants pay more in tax than they consume in welfare or public services, so they benefit the public finances.

​The impact on public services is difficult to measure with certainty. Immigrants may add to demand for and pressure on public services, but also contribute to financing and providing those services, particularly in the NHS.

Impacts are likely to vary by local area. However, research shows that higher levels of immigration are not associated, at a local level, with longer NHS waiting times.

And in schools, increased numbers of pupils with English as a second language doesn't have any negative impact on levels of achievement for native English speaking students. If anything, pupils in schools with lots of non-native speakers do slightly better.

This article was written by academic experts at the UK in a Changing Europe initiative, with support from Full Fact, and used as the basis for a feature on ITV News at Ten. Any opinions or professional judgments of the authors are labelled as such.

Oh found a better one

The ratio of foreign-born workers to UK-workers affects the wages of the lowest paid

The report suggested that an increase in the ratio of foreign-born workers to UK-born workers in lower-paid service occupations caused a small but significant reduction in the average pay for low paid workers in that region.

It found that a 1.88% reduction in pay for semi-skilled and unskilled service workers would be expected to follow, on average, a 10% increase in the proportion of immigrants working in those jobs in a particular region.

Examples of jobs in this category include child minders, cleaners, shop assistants, call centre staff, bar staff and postal workers.

The reduction in average pay for semi-skilled and unskilled service workers is mainly due to a drop in wages for low-paid workers born in the UK. A small part is because immigrants tend to be paid less than native workers, bringing the average down further.

The Bank of England also found that an increase in the ratio of foreign-born to UK-born workers seemed to have an effect on the average UK wage nationally. This effect was much smaller than the effect found when the report focused on particular groups of occupation.

Whether the immigrant workers had come from inside or outside the EU made very little difference.

This is a relatively small effect

Between 2004-2006 and 2012-2014 the ratio of foreign-born to UK-born workers rose by about 8% in low-skilled and semi-skilled service occupations across the UK as a whole. This was the largest change in any of the four occupational groups classified by the report.

So for a low-skilled or semi-skilled occupation paid £8 per hour, this would work out to a drop of between 1 and 2 pence per hour, each year.

Many issues have an affect on the wages of the lowest paid. Academics commonly list global changes in technology and trade, or national differences in education, attitudes to gender, and union activity as having a much more significant effect than having a higher proportion of immigrants in the workforce.

 

[Acorn]

Do you really think they'd let the UK rejoin if we left?

Eventually yes, EU is all about expansion, plus they'd have the power leverage to push everything we opt out of on us.

 

[Mr. Sam]

Thanks. I had a feeling it was ho-ee.

So it's entirely possible she did make and distribute that poster? Pretty messed up and should surely be enough to have her removed fekn the party?

She wouldn't have made it, she's pro-Leave. That and she'd be talking in the third person, the weirdo.

 

[liquidtmd]

Whether we leave or remain, the referendum was a colossally stupid mistake.

Disagree. You cannot handwave away what may well be half the populations opinion

If Remain wins tomorrow, and I hope at this point they do, I desperate hope the UK and EU at large really heeds and learns from this so such a defined split doesn't happen again.

 

[Ashes]

Some decisions really should definitely be left out of rhe general public's hands.

Woh. Some people are more equal than others?

 

[Acorn]

Disagree. You cannot handwave away what may well be half the populations opinion

If Remain wins tomorrow, and I hope at this point they do, I desperate hope the UK and EU at large really heeds and learns from this so such a defined split doesn't happen again.

It wasn't half the country pre referendum calling. Just like it wasn't nearly half for our ref before it.

 

[lifa-cobex]

If we vote leave, immigration will go up before the deadline comes into force.

You'll face even more hardship in the short term as the market floods with unskilled workers wanting to get in before the 2020 deadline.

Absolutely. Short term will be detrimental to me.
But I'm an (relatively) safe in my job and I'm willing to work hard to keep it.
I'm all about long term.

At least I would have the opportunity to vote for better immigration control where as I wouldn't get anything of the sort being part of the EU.

No offence Gaf but the reason I didn't speak up about my leanings was because I kinda guessed I would get jumped on by multiple members and have to spend the next day explaining myself.
I'm not against the EU. I like the idea but I think the poor sector will get hit in the future.
I can only vote for my own beliefs. I'm continuing doing research on both sides.

Have a good vote.

 

[Ashes]

That doesn't mean it was a good idea. We could have a referendum on the death penalty for the sake of being democratic, but that doesn't mean we should.

You're right in this regard. Sometimes the tyranny of the majority is a bad thing.

 

[fanboi]

Absolutely. Short term will be detrimental to me.
But I'm an (relatively) safe in my job and I'm willing to work hard to keep it.
I'm all about long term.

At least I would have the opportunity to vote for better immigration control where as I wouldn't get anything of the sort being part of the EU.

No offence Gaf but the reason I didn't speak up about my leanings was because I kinda guessed I would get jumped on by multiple members and have to spend the next day explaining myself.
I'm not against the EU. I like the idea but I think the poor sector will get hit in the future.
I can only vote for my own beliefs. I'm continuing doing research on both sides.

Have a good vote.

Have you been jumped on now?

But good of you to make a researched choice instead of 'gut feeling'.

 

[Ghost]

Absolutely. Short term will be detrimental to me.
But I'm an (relatively) safe in my job and I'm willing to work hard to keep it.
I'm all about long term.

At least I would have the opportunity to vote for better immigration control where as I wouldn't get anything of the sort being part of the EU.

No offence Gaf but the reason I didn't speak up about my leanings was because I kinda guessed I would get jumped on by multiple members and have to spend the next day explaining myself.
I'm not against the EU. I like the idea but I think the poor sector will get hit in the future.
I can only vote for my own beliefs. I'm continuing doing research on both sides.

Have a good vote.

You should read the website I just quoted https://fullfact.org/ it confirms/denies many points on both sides.

 

[avaya]

Nationalism is a sad disease.

Though it dominates the world, the nation-state owns no long history of legitimacy. It developed in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, its nationalism “a doctrine invented in Europe,” writes the political scientist Elie Kedourie, that “pretends to supply a criterion for the determination of the unit of population proper to enjoy a government exclusively its own.... Briefly, the doctrine holds that humanity is naturally divided into nations, that nations are known by certain characteristics which can be ascertained, and that the only legitimate type of government is national self-government.”

Not the least triumph of this doctrine is that such propositions have become accepted and are thought to be self-evident, that the very word nation has been endowed by nationalism with a meaning and a resonance which until the end of the eighteenth century it was far from having. These ideas have become firmly naturalized in the political rhetoric of the West which has been taken over for the use of the whole world. But what now seems natural once was unfamiliar, needing argument, persuasion, evidences of many kinds; what seems simple and transparent is really obscure and contrived, the outcome of circumstances now forgotten and preoccupations now academic, the residue of metaphysical systems sometimes incompatible and even contradictory.

Nationalism differed radically from the hierarchical feudal organization that preceded it in the West. It offered every member of society who was included within its definition the security, invested with powerful emotion, of merger into a welcoming crowd. Not the king or the nobility but the people would be its essential polity: L'etat c'est moi et moi et moi.That was the increase in political freedom its invention installed. But com-plementarily, notes the economist Barbara Ward, “its essential nature is [as well] to leave other people out.... It can even divorce from all community of brotherhood and goodwill fellowmen who simply happen to live on the other side of a river.”

The power of the state, when nationalism succeeded in acquiring it — enlarging such power in the process — amplified that essential tension. Whole populations discovered political and emotional investment in their national causes. But outlanders became certainly more alien; the Other was confirmed in his Otherness; and between nation-states so radically divided — divided, as they believed, by nature itself — opened gulfs of threatening anarchy. Bridging them was difficult in the best of circumstances and no hierarchical authority survived to mediate as the Church had once done. In international affairs the worst case came to be counted the most reliable.

Then industrial technology and applied science enormously amplified the nation-state's power and when the smoke cleared the cities of the dead and gradually the nation of the dead revealed themselves to view. “Once men lose all grip on reality,” observes Barbara Ward, “there seems to be no limit to the horrors of hatred and passion and rage they can dredge up from their psychological depths, horrors which normally we use all our social institutions to check. Unleashed nationalism on the contrary removes the checks.”

Which suggests, reverting to Elliot's clue, that no living organic structure could be found sufficiently strong to resist the new death organization because the entire nation was implicated: the death organization was the nation-state itself. It followed that once mechanisms could be devised with which to attack civilian populations, civilian populations would be attacked. The enemy was the enemy nation, which was no more than the corporate body of all the enemy citizens, each of whom, in uniform or not, regardless of age or sex, was individually the enemy.

 

[lifa-cobex]

Have you been jumped on now?

But good of you to make a researched choice instead of 'gut feeling'.

Last page of multiple members start questioning me. Kinda feel like a snowball effect will occur the more reasons I put.
But yea, Not something I'm gonna put a gut feeling too.

You should read the website I just quoted https://fullfact.org/ it confirms/denies many points on both sides.

I read it a couple of days ago. Not bad.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

She wouldn't have made it, she's pro-Leave. That and she'd be talking in the third person, the weirdo.

Ah, fair enough. Although the third person thing, my old boss used to refer to himself in the third person all the time. I think that's why it didn't stick out to me.

Woh. Some people are more equal than others?

Some political decisions, like if we stay in the EU, should be left to those we elect to run the country rather than put to a public vote.

 

[Ashes]

Have a good vote.

You too. You're right. There's too much bickering. I for one will trust you.

 

[Izuna]

Absolutely. Short term will be detrimental to me.
But I'm an (relatively) safe in my job and I'm willing to work hard to keep it.
I'm all about long term.

At least I would have the opportunity to vote for better immigration control where as I wouldn't get anything of the sort being part of the EU.

No offence Gaf but the reason I didn't speak up about my leanings was because I kinda guessed I would get jumped on by multiple members and have to spend the next day explaining myself.
I'm not against the EU. I like the idea but I think the poor sector will get hit in the future.
I can only vote for my own beliefs. I'm continuing doing research on both sides.

Have a good vote.

If you are still doing research, then understand we are not jumping on your views.

It should be very obvious that the far-right, who take the poor the least in account, want Brexit because the EU stops them from making things worse for the poor.

There is no immigration referendum promised, and this country has used immigration for its benefit since recent history. The idea that we will suddenly become more competitive on a global scale outside of the EU, because of less (outside of EU) immigration, is not just a risk, it merely doesn't make sense.

If there is an argument for why this would happen, I would be happy to hear it. I have a vote too, so it would be in your best interest to let me know what I don't.

 

[the_batman]

Hope that helps

yes, thanks for taking the time.

Woh. Some people are more equal than others?

well aren't the elected officials there for a reason? to make important decisions for citizens?

 

[fanboi]

Last page of multiple members start questioning me. Kinda feel like a snowball effect will occur the more reasons I put.
But yea, Not something I'm gonna put a gut feeling too.



I read it a couple of days ago. Not bad.

Ehem, I wouldn't call a level headed discussion pointing out the pros of staying juming on you? Seems like they want to have a good discussion.

 

[Psychotext]

They should do a test beforehand for your vote to count to prove that you actually have a Scrooby what you are voting for.

Yup. It's not democracy, but fuck it... apparently I'm not a fan of democracy.

 

[CCS]

yes, thanks for taking the time.



well aren't the elected officials there for a reason? to make important decisions for citizens?

You're welcome. Always glad to help.

Man, I wouldn't say I'm panicking, but I'm certainly nervous as hell guys.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

Do you really think they'd let the UK rejoin if we left?

Remember the parable of the Prodigal Son.

 

[Ashes]

some political decisions, like if we stay in the EU, should be left to those we elect to run the country rather than put to a public vote.

You are correct. But people voted for the Tories who had this as a pledge in their manifesto.

 

[liquidtmd]

Ehem, I wouldn't call a level headed discussion pointing out the pros of staying juming on you? Seems like they want to have a good discussion.

Maybe, but in here it is noticeable that anyone indicating they want to Leave get multiple posters quoting them and asking 'why' many times, whereas Remain posters tend not to.

It may be level headed and overall the tone in here has been good, but even as a remainer I get why there may be some posters who refrain from declaring in here

 

[Flintty]

Some decisions really should definitely be left out of rhe general public's hands.

I disagree. Why shouldn't the people have a say? A referendum was promised by Labour who then went back on that promise. Cameron got in and now has to deliver on his promise. It's clear that people want in on this decision and rightly so, whether you disagree with the result or not.

This is a chance to shake up the UK political climate in a major way, people should be welcoming it.

 

[lifa-cobex]

Ehem, I wouldn't call a level headed discussion pointing out the pros of staying juming on you? Seems like they want to have a good discussion.

I'm only one person trying to explain myself to multiple.
Lets say five ppl wright two different questions.
I end up answering ten. Then those ten answers end up being questioned.

Give It a couple of hours and I'll end up writing essays to answer ppl. If I end up ignoring ppl, I'll be accused of cherry picking.
I could be spending time doing research.

 

[phisheep]

Remember the parable of the Prodigal Son.

Remember also that the fatted calf was killed in the process.

Source: Luke 15:23

 

[EdwardTeach]

We will still get mass immigration?
All I would want is a sensible immigration policy.
Basically a Visa.
Being part of the EU, I know this would never happen.

After we leave we will still have to agree to free movement of people to have access to the EU market. This is the case for Switzerland and Norway. There is no chance the EU will be more lenient with the UK. They will be inclined to make an example of us to discourage any further breakaways.

 

[fanboi]

I'm only one person trying to explain myself to multiple.
Lets say five ppl wright two different questions.
I end up answering ten. Then those ten answers end up being questioned.

Give It a couple of hours and I'll end up writing essays to answer ppl. If I end up ignoring ppl, I'll be accused of cherry picking.
I could be spending time doing research.

If they are they are idiots

But good, keep researching

 

[QuicheFontaine]

Remember also that the fatted calf was killed in the process.

Source: Luke 15:23

Is that a critique of CAP? This metaphor is getting away from me now...

Edit:

I never really got that parable anyway. So the guy spends his inheritance, goes out gambling, drinking and whoring it up, then comes back and gets the same reward as the well-behaved son?? What sort of message is that sending? That being well-behaved is for chumps?

 

[milanbaros]

We will still get mass immigration?
All I would want is a sensible immigration policy.
Basically a Visa.
Being part of the EU, I know this would never happen.

I really don't think leaving the EU will reduce migration. Maybe the economic downturn that follows will make the UK less attractive.

 

[ferrasvansen]

God damn scary film, remembering watching it when i was 13. Funnily enough Russia is a bit of a loose cannon right now and i would rather stay in Europe for that reason alone, never mind all the other reasons that matter to me.

 

[Ashes]

I'm only one person trying to explain myself to multiple.
Lets say five ppl wright two different questions.
I end up answering ten. Then those ten answers end up being questioned.

May I ask a question about immigration unrelated to the referendum?

 

[EdwardTeach]

Disagree. You cannot handwave away what may well be half the populations opinion

If Remain wins tomorrow, and I hope at this point they do, I desperate hope the UK and EU at large really heeds and learns from this so such a defined split doesn't happen again.

It is a complex decision that the general populace isn't really equipped to make. A lot of people will be voting tomorrow with a total misunderstanding of the facts.

 

[Flintty]

God damn scary film, remembering watching it when i was 13. Funnily enough Russia is a bit of a loose cannon right now and i would rather stay in Europe for that reason alone, never mind all the other reasons that matter to me.

We will still be a NATO member, which is where it counts. The EU has little impact on defence in comparison.

 

[Acorn]

Probably late but John oliver has done a bit about brexit.

 

[ferrasvansen]

We will still be a NATO member, which is where it counts. The EU has little impact on defence in comparison.

I never mentioned anything about military, i meant the fact as a group we can use financial penalties to maybe help Russia change its mind.

 

[Acorn]

Why is it not possible to fine brexit politicians for quoting the b.s 350m shit?

All we hear is NSO warning them which does nothing.

 

[HazySaiyan]

God damn scary film, remembering watching it when i was 13. Funnily enough Russia is a bit of a loose cannon right now and i would rather stay in Europe for that reason alone, never mind all the other reasons that matter to me.

Between that, QED and Protect and Survive I don't know how the British public got through the 1980s.

Why is it not possible to fine brexit politicians for quoting the b.s 350m shit?

All we hear is NSO warning them which does nothing.

Would be pointless anyway, the Leave campaign would just spin it as 'the Establishment trying to silence them' or something.

 

[liquidtmd]

It is a complex decision that the general populace isn't really equipped to make. A lot of people will be voting tomorrow with a total misunderstanding of the facts.

I don't entirely disagree but you could extend that line of thinking to General Elections or indeed anything.

Cynicism aside, the longer term consequences of no Referendum would be a seething underbelly of frustration that would manifest itself in different ways.

Have faith.

 

[Hasney]

Due to moving, I have to get up at 4am tomorrow to make it to the polling station and work on time. Think I'll be on the energy drink while I'm at the gig that night. Fun times!

 

[Flintty]

I never mentioned anything about military, i meant the fact as a group we can use financial penalties to maybe help Russia change its mind.

There's not a lot EU can do other than trade sanctions, which is something they can do without UK. UK would have the means to implement our own sanctions, potentially more robust than EU (of course, it could go the other way). Additionally, the effectiveness of trade sanctions against a nation the size of Russia is questionable. That said, we can still be united with Europe on such matters, projecting a strong alliance without paying a huge fee to be part of their club.

 

[Beefy]

Freeeeeedom!!

Spoiler

Vote Remain

 

[phisheep]

I never really got that parable anyway. So the guy spends his inheritance, goes out gambling, drinking and whoring it up, then comes back and gets the same reward as the well-behaved son?? What sort of message is that sending? That being well-behaved is for chumps?

That a son is a son no matter what, that being together is better than being apart, that family outweighs individual rewards, that forgiveness is possible and repentance accepted. That you can change your mind without rancour and repentance need not attract punishment, that there is a price worth paying for togetherness.

Need I continue?

Edit: going to be really quiet in the shop today. No customers, beings as all the roads clogged with Glastonbury traffic. May end up posting more than I meant to.

 

[Dambrosi]

So, we in Sunday School now? Man, things are getting biblical in this thread.

As ever, PhiTeacher handing down that sweet Gospel Truth.