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UK Labour Leadership Crisis: Corbyn retained as leader by strong margin

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The impression I got from Stephen Harper was that he was very right wing and rather un-Canadian. Yet he still won several elections. Canada isn't really as liberal as I thought. Though the balance has been restored after the Conservatives in Canada got beaten, badly. Corbyn won't rest until he's destroyed the centre-left in this country for many, many years. Fuck him and his selfishness.

and Stephen Harper was defeated by a unifying leader in Justin Trudeau, not in an ideologue in 2015

Stephen Harper's 2011 majority win stemmed from a weak Liberal party followed by back to back two weak Liberal leaders + a rise of popularity of the late Jack Layton as NDP leader (Social-Democrat). The vote splitting between the Liberals and the NDP helped Harper win a majority

only by retaking control of the party with strong leadership that appealed nation wide did the Liberalsl retake back their place as the Natural Governing Party in 2015

Labour needs to dump Corbyn
 

Hazzuh

Member
If that poll were accurate, we would never have voted to leave the EU.

People think they can have the single market without any immigration. They can't and hopefully that will become clear at some point soon, the Labour party leader should have the courage to say that.

CnT-Fo1WAAA9SvT.jpg:large


CnT-3-9WYAAEWQ2.jpg
 

twobear

sputum-flecked apoplexy
People think they can have the single market without any immigration. They can't and hopefully that will become clear at some point soon, the Labour party leader should have the courage to say that.
And do you think any of this will encourage anybody who thinks immigration is a real threat to England otherwise?
 
LOL at how people think free movement can be limited when the EU has been telling Switzerland to fuck off with their migrant cap. Free movement and EU migration isn't that big of a deal anyway.
 

Hazzuh

Member
And do you think any of this will encourage anybody who thinks immigration is a real threat to England otherwise?

I'm not really sure what to say to you... the poll seems to show that only a small minority think that immigration is the priority. All the Brexiteers were saying that immigration wasn't the #1 concern of Leave voters when people said the campaign was racist etc. Here is some polling from Lord Ashcroft which is consistent with ending immigration not being the main priority:

Nearly half (49%) of leave voters said the biggest single reason for wanting to leave the EU was “the principle that decisions about the UK should be taken in the UK”. One third (33%) said the main reason was that leaving “offered the best chance for the UK to regain control over immigration and its own borders.” Just over one in eight (13%) said remaining would mean having no choice “about how the EU expanded its membership or its powers in the years ahead.” Only just over one in twenty (6%) said their main reason was that “when it comes to trade and the economy, the UK would benefit more from being outside the EU than from being part of it.”

You don't even have to run on a campaign of "immigration is great!", just that it's worth it to stay in the single market.

Yes, I'm sure it will turn off some Labour voters who want to end immigration at all costs but A) It's the right thing to do! An EEA deal is clearly the best deal for the British people and B) It's a voter winner imo. Especially when people really realise what the costs will be to people who work in agriculture, manufacturing, financial services etc if we leave the EU.
 

Burai

shitonmychest57
A Labour party of realism that presents immigration as a necessary cost for free market access will get its arse handed to it by a UKIP that promises free market access and an end to immigration even though such a thing is completely unfeasible.

People still haven't twigged that they've been lied to and they won't do for some time.

If anyone thinks that David Davies' inevitable failure will be spun by the media and UKIP as anything other than "Not standing up for Britain and believing in how great we are" they've got another thing coming.

Anti-intellectualism is going to shape politics for a long while yet.
 
Because unfortunately PMQ's isn't about holding the government to account, or asking questions about policy, or seeing if they might address an issue. It's all about the insults and attacking the other party.

Doesn't matter if Corbyn asks good questions, Cameron and now May will just ignore them and attack him. Doesn't help that the Labour Party are making it really easy for her.

But it kinda is about holding the government to account. This half hour a week is the only one that's guaranteed to get on TV. Outside if that it's select committees and amendments and 2nd readings and all that boring shit. For his half an hour it's about shaping the media narrative, about making front pages and getting the press and TV to go at topic that you have brought up. If you do that well, the government will feel pressure. If you don't, you will be considered weak. That's what PMQs is. The attacking and the jokes are all part of that. If you want dry analysis, you have allllllll the rest of the procedural time.
 

Tak3n

Banned
well the labour party just made a cool 4.5 million in two days, according the the BBC 183,000 have paid the sum of £25 in the last 48 hours
 
Watching PMQs earlier, and as much as I admire the guys politics, Corbyn has just got to go. He's not commanding any respect from anyone in the house at all. PMQs was total carnage. Talk about open season on Corbyn from all sides.
 

EmiPrime

Member
Representatives of the German car manufacturers will roll into Brussels and together with the British negotiators get a deal for Britain that involves access to the single market and immigration controls.

After all is it not as the great prophet Fah'raj once said: "The Krauts need us more than we need them! Alhamdullilah!"
 

Pie and Beans

Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
I guess with all these protest voters paying up and pouring in Corbyn is going to stay and the Labour party is...what? Forced to split? I wish people could see he is just not a competent leader in any way shape or form which is what the vote is for. People just don't fucking understand voting at all anymore do they? It's like everythings been Pop Idol'd and theres no way to get sanity back.

Watching the destruction of politics in the UK is just draining me of so much energy these days. It all honestly feels hopeless and theres another 10 years of just straight up fucking darkness ahead.
 

Jezbollah

Member
I guess with all these protest voters paying up and pouring in Corbyn is going to stay and the Labour party is...what? Forced to split? I wish people could see he is just not a competent leader in any way shape or form which is what the vote is for. People just don't fucking understand voting at all anymore do they? It's like everythings been Pop Idol'd and theres no way to get sanity back.

Watching the destruction of politics in the UK is just draining me of so much energy these days. It all honestly feels hopeless and theres another 10 years of just straight up fucking darkness ahead.

If Corbyn wins the leadership contest I honestly don't see anything else than a Labour split.

It's either that, or May putting Labour out of it's misery by calling an election for early next year.
 

Ushojax

Should probably not trust the 7-11 security cameras quite so much
If Corbyn wins the leadership contest I honestly don't see anything else than a Labour split.

It's either that, or May putting Labour out of it's misery by calling an election for early next year.

The best case scenario if Corbyn wins is for an early GE and for Labour to get bitchslapped. The scary thing is that I can't even see him resigning in that situation, he would want another leadership contest.
 

Azzanadra

Member
I think Corbyn should stay. Old Labour, New labour- I don't see either of them winning in the near future. With Corbyn at least, you have a good man whilst sticking to progressive ideals and not the others who idolize a psychopathic warmonger. The Tories have a near-complete grip on UK politics, at least at the federal level and that's just a historical and inconvenient truth.

It sucks it has to be the Tories though, Canada's "natural governing party" (as much as I hate the term) is the Liberal Party, so the only way I can really see the Tories losing is by their own hand- if they self destruct, which I don't see happening anytime soon either as I do believe Theresa May is quite competent. Maybe if Boris was PM. Ah well.

Quite a depressing situation it is, though for what its worth I don't think UK tories are *that* bad, I don't think they are bad as Canadian conservatives or Republicans- not that its saying much.

and Stephen Harper was defeated by a unifying leader in Justin Trudeau, not in an ideologue in 2015

Stephen Harper's 2011 majority win stemmed from a weak Liberal party followed by back to back two weak Liberal leaders + a rise of popularity of the late Jack Layton as NDP leader (Social-Democrat). The vote splitting between the Liberals and the NDP helped Harper win a majority

only by retaking control of the party with strong leadership that appealed nation wide did the Liberalsl retake back their place as the Natural Governing Party in 2015

Labour needs to dump Corbyn

Ultimately the reason Trudeau won was the way he ran his campaign. It was very much infused with emotion and positive energy. I also fully believe the NDP could have won (or done better) if they channeled "angry" Tom because yes, the Canadian people are angry we are ruled by this Republican wannabe. Instead the NDP moved to the right and didn't really excite any passions so they lost, badly. Perhaps Corbyn could tap into the same sort of emotion?
 
I guess with all these protest voters paying up and pouring in Corbyn is going to stay and the Labour party is...what? Forced to split? I wish people could see he is just not a competent leader in any way shape or form which is what the vote is for. People just don't fucking understand voting at all anymore do they? It's like everythings been Pop Idol'd and theres no way to get sanity back.

Watching the destruction of politics in the UK is just draining me of so much energy these days. It all honestly feels hopeless and theres another 10 years of just straight up fucking darkness ahead.

It is opinons like this that make me shake my head. Yes, it is the apocalypse! Transitions and disruptions like this are part of the process of the evolution of society.

There is a genuine ideological split in the party. It isn't going to go away just by getting rid of Corbyn, in fact it will possibly just rip the party apart either way. I also think it is rather tragic that people think that the Conservatives are going to have an open path into power ad inifinitum. Given predicted trends over the course of the 21st century, it is unlikely that the Tories will be able to rise to the challenges at all. They are ideologically incapable of doing so. Neither are centrist labour. Climate change and its consequences present a scale of threat which is far beyond the minor structural adjustments that UK government advocates in practice (well it seems to be even recanting on some of those). For many, I don't think it has ever been just about Corbyn. What is important is commitment to genuine change, and proposed policies to act on. Corbyn has got the former and some of the latter, despite the media shennanigans.

That Youguv poll is not surprising at all given the shambles that Labour are going through. I am willing to bet the party would be doing a lot better if the MPs actually backed their leader...I think some people can't seem to understand that the major difference between a lot of Labour MPs and Corbyn is ideological, not on his 'leadership' qualities. It is obvious.
 
There is a genuine ideological split in the party.

It's a split, but they're not split down the middle. At least, the PLP certainly aren't. With the Tories, they were really split down the middle on the EU which is why, post-referendum, they've largely been solid. Look at how many nominations Corbyn got. Look at how many voted in favour of him in the VonC. Look at how he's struggling to fill a cabinet. Corbyn represents a niche slice on the Labour party, one that'll never be a significant force again. So having him lead the party would be akin to having Reese-Mogg leading the Tories or something - he's perfectly fine to have in the party and clearly his electorate keep re-electing him so he's representing them well enough, but he doesn't represent a significant chunk of what the party supports.

Not saying I disagree with you, by the way, I think you're basically right. But a right-of-Corbyn leader wouldn't require a badly behaved PLP that may well end up in a split, where as a Corbyn-McDonnel one does.
 

Hazzuh

Member
It is opinons like this that make me shake my head. Yes, it is the apocalypse! Transitions and disruptions like this are part of the process of the evolution of society.

There is a genuine ideological split in the party. It isn't going to go away just by getting rid of Corbyn, in fact it will possibly just rip the party apart either way. I also think it is rather tragic that people think that the Conservatives are going to have an open path into power ad inifinitum. Given predicted trends over the course of the 21st century, it is unlikely that the Tories will be able to rise to the challenges at all. They are ideologically incapable of doing so. Neither are centrist labour. Climate change and its consequences present a scale of threat which is far beyond the minor structural adjustments that UK government advocates in practice (well it seems to be even recanting on some of those). For many, I don't think it has ever been just about Corbyn. What is important is commitment to genuine change, and proposed policies to act on. Corbyn has got the former and some of the latter, despite the media shennanigans.

That Youguv poll is not surprising at all given the shambles that Labour are going through. I am willing to bet the party would be doing a lot better if the MPs actually backed their leader...I think some people can't seem to understand that the major difference between a lot of Labour MPs and Corbyn is ideological, not on his 'leadership' qualities. It is obvious.

How exactly it "obvious" to you this isn't about his leadership qualities when everyone has made clear that is what it is about:

Thangam Debbonaire, ex-Shadow Culture Minister
https://www.facebook.com/thangam.deb...57204442320083

Mr Corbyn appointed me and press released this without my knowledge or consent whilst I was in the middle of cancer treatment. He then sacked me the next day when he realized he had given away part of someone else's role. But didn't bother to tell me that either. By then my office had been besieged by press and the story was out that I was Shadow Minister. I decided to make the best of it and to serve. I worked on his Arts policy whilst I was still having treatment but in Bristol..

When I went back to Westminster, I discovered that he had sacked me but hadn't told me and did not have any ideas for how I was supposed to explain it to Bristol West members or constituents.
Lilian Greenwood, ex-Shadow Transport Minister
http://www.liliangreenwood.co.uk/lil..._party_members

Incredibly, Jeremy launched a Shadow Cabinet reshuffle on the same day. This was the reshuffle that had been talked about since the Syria vote a month earlier. A vote where I supported Jeremy’s position. The reshuffle that meant all our staff spent Christmas not knowing whether they'd have a job by the New Year. By mid-afternoon the press were camped outside the Leader's office. They were there for the next 3 days.

It knocked all the coverage of the rail fare rise and our public ownership policy off every news channel and every front page. I respect completely Jeremy’s right to reshuffle his top team. But why then? It was unnecessary and it was incompetent.
Despite our agreed policy, despite Jeremy's Director of Policy and I agreeing our position, without saying anything to me, Jeremy gave a press interview in which he suggested he could drop Labour’s support for HS2 altogether. He told a journalist on a local Camden newspaper that perhaps the HS2 line shouldn’t go to Euston at all but stop at Old Oak Common in West London – but he never discussed any of this with the Shadow Cabinet, or me, beforehand. I felt totally undermined on a really difficult issue.
Richard Murphy, creator of Corbynomics
http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2...yns-economics/

I had the opportunity to see what was happening inside the PLP. The leadership wasn’t confusing as much as just silent. There was no policy direction, no messaging, no direction, no co-ordination, no nothing. Shadow ministers appeared to have been left with no direction as to what to do. It was shambolic. The leadership usually couldn’t even get a press release out on time to meet print media deadlines and then complained they got no coverage.
Stewart Owadally, Welsh Remain Campaign Director
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-36651135

The letter, written by both Mr Owadally, who is a Labour member, and Wales Stronger In Europe's head of press Alex Kalinik, said: "We were consistently given short shrift when we requested visits from Labour figures via the Labour Party in London.

"Our political champions from the Labour Party were often unable to get hold of research or rebuttal materials from Labour HQ to help make their case.

"In the end we often coordinated press for Labour figures because the Labour Party was not willing to do so - but these were less powerful because they were not from the official party infrastructure.

"Most strikingly felt of all was the complete disinterest from Jeremy Corbyn.

"As leader of our party, he should have thrown the full weight of his resources - as leader, as the leader's office, and as the steward of the party itself - into the Labour campaign for a Remain vote, but this did not happen.
I think there was another EU referendum one about how people were left hanging by the leadership and had to do everything themselves.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36633238

And documents passed to the BBC suggest Jeremy Corbyn's office sought to delay and water down the Labour Remain campaign. Sources suggest that they are evidence of "deliberate sabotage".

One email from the leader's office suggests that Mr Corbyn's director of strategy and communications, Seumas Milne, was behind Mr Corbyn's reluctance to take a prominent role in Labour's campaign to keep the UK in the EU. One email, discussing one of the leader's speeches, said it was because of the "hand of Seumas. If he can't kill it, he will water it down so much to hope nobody notices it".

A series of messages dating back to December seen by the BBC shows correspondence between the party leader's office, the Labour Remain campaign and Labour HQ, discussing the European campaign. It shows how a sentence talking about immigration was removed on one occasion and how Mr Milne refused to sign off a letter signed by 200 MPs after it had already been approved.

The documents show concern in Labour HQ and the Labour Remain campaign about Mr Corbyn's commitment to the campaign - one email says: "What is going on here?" Another email from Labour Remain sources to the leader's office complains "there is no EU content here - we agreed to have Europe content in it". Sources say they show the leader's office was reluctant to give full support to the EU campaign and how difficult it was to get Mr Corbyn to take a prominent role.

Do you think all of these are fabricated? That seems to be Corbyn's position as well so you are in good company.
 
I think Corbyn should stay. Old Labour, New labour- I don't see either of them winning in the near future. With Corbyn at least, you have a good man whilst sticking to progressive ideals and not the others who idolize a psychopathic warmonger. The Tories have a near-complete grip on UK politics, at least at the federal level and that's just a historical and inconvenient truth.

The thing is, The tories don;t have a complete grip on politics. Their majority is tiny. Despite the seemingly fracturing of the two main parties (Ukip/tories, Corbynistas/Labour) Centre Left is still very appealing for a lot of voters. Problem is Labour is in a complete shambles at the moment. They have brand recognition, they got a natural springboard for an election. I can see why people like Corbyn, but personally i think he has been a useless sack of shit to be honest. Perhaps my younger self may have been swept up in all the idealistic charms of the man, but i don't think he can offer a credible government. Also when your most trusted aide is McDonnell... i think it says a lot.

I think that a lot of people like him because he just represents an ideology, but the man himself? He doesn't give the same good feelings that Obama did for example, or Caroline Lucas. I'm no their biggest fans but Nicola Sturgeon and Ruth Davidson for example have something about them, a backbone, or pragmatism i think JC lacks.

I always been left of centre, but also have a pragmatic, realistic side as well. Perhaps i can't see that different type of politics that Jeremy eludes too, but at the moment i think we need more than that. His party is a shambles at the moment.

Labour themselves are a shambles as well, there seems to be a clear lack of talent or recognisable faces coming through, they got a pretty big rebuilding job to do.
 

Maledict

Member
Corbyn's priorities for his election as leader fill me with despair. It's not that I disagree with his focus on equality and discrimination (as a gay man I'd be an idiot to). It's just that you don't win an election based off that. It's the same with the zero hours contract stuff - it's something good you do for a minority of people after you get the backing of the majority on a wider agenda. Blair didn't campaign on specific issues like that - he had a vision of more equal, fairer Britain, and they had a truck full of policies for the big political areas the majority of people worry about - education, crime, housing.

When the only policy detail coming out in the press about your campaign is adding an extra layer of administration to business to make them publish all pay details and staffing breakdowns then even I despair. It puts Labour right into the anti-business box that hurts it so much. Do we REALLY think that adding more requirements onto small businesses right now is the way to get elected?
 

Dougald

Member
I like many of Corbyn's ideas, but Labour right now fills me with despair. There is absolutely no way they will get elected with him at the helm, and I'd rather have a more centre Labour government which can do some good, than a shrinking, ineffective opposition. Corbyn can talk about anything he likes but as long as it's not going to get him in government, it doesn't matter
 

Maledict

Member
It's also infuriating that everything is a fight against something. Again, to reference Blair - they laid out a clear vision for the country and it didn't rely on every other sentence being "The Tories are evil". Everything from Corbyn is a fight against something, it's always a protest - a push back. Nothing is ever defined on it's own, it's always in reference to something else.
 
It's also infuriating that everything is a fight against something. Again, to reference Blair - they laid out a clear vision for the country and it didn't rely on every other sentence being "The Tories are evil". Everything from Corbyn is a fight against something, it's always a protest - a push back. Nothing is ever defined on it's own, it's always in reference to something else.

The eternal struggle goes on.... and on..... and on.

At least it will whilst we have no credible opposition. :/
 

Hazzuh

Member
Jeremy Corbyn's answer when asked about Diane Abbott's #r4today comments about @OwenSmith_MP's past work for Pfizer.

Cn4bA6lXgAEqTRr.jpg

Seems like Corbyn is suggesting that pharmaceutical companies shouldn't do any medical research? Bit weird.
 
It's also infuriating that everything is a fight against something. Again, to reference Blair - they laid out a clear vision for the country and it didn't rely on every other sentence being "The Tories are evil". Everything from Corbyn is a fight against something, it's always a protest - a push back. Nothing is ever defined on it's own, it's always in reference to something else.

This so much.
 

Dougald

Member
It's also infuriating that everything is a fight against something. Again, to reference Blair - they laid out a clear vision for the country and it didn't rely on every other sentence being "The Tories are evil". Everything from Corbyn is a fight against something, it's always a protest - a push back. Nothing is ever defined on it's own, it's always in reference to something else.

Yes. My boss (admittely a Tory) put it well when he said Corbyn would be more at home on a British Leyland picket line shouting at management.

Labour need to be relevant to the 21st Century, both for their sake and this country


Seems like Corbyn is suggesting that pharmaceutical companies shouldn't do any medical research? Bit weird.

Reads to me like "Privatization is always evil and State run is always good". No middle ground.
 
Seems like Corbyn is suggesting that pharmaceutical companies shouldn't do any medical research? Bit weird.

That is a bit weird. Pretty sure the NHS doesn't do any research right now, does it? I think they add some funding to some things, but it's basically all third party if not private.
 

twobear

sputum-flecked apoplexy
Reads to me like "Privatization is always evil and State run is always good". No middle ground.

In the run-up to the last leadership election, his manifesto said that he doesn't think that privately owned companies are evil and that everything should be public, only that privately owned companies are at their best when they're supported and moderated by a robust state. If you want to read that as 'no middle ground', then go ahead, but it's a pretty dodgy misreading.

That is a bit weird. Pretty sure the NHS doesn't do any research right now, does it? I think they add some funding to some things, but it's basically all third party if not private.

The NIHR?
 

Maledict

Member
In the run-up to the last leadership election, his manifesto said that he doesn't think that privately owned companies are evil and that everything should be public, only that privately owned companies are at their best when they're supported and moderated by a robust state. If you want to read that as 'no middle ground', then go ahead, but it's a pretty dodgy misreading.

Look at what he literally said this morning about NHS research and private companies? That's what we are talking about, not what he wrote last year.
 

Dougald

Member
In the run-up to the last leadership election, his manifesto said that he doesn't think that privately owned companies are evil and that everything should be public, only that privately owned companies are at their best when they're supported and moderated by a robust state. If you want to read that as 'no middle ground', then go ahead, but it's a pretty dodgy misreading.

Er, I wasn't responding to a post containing the manifesto
 

Pie and Beans

Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
It is opinons like this that make me shake my head. Yes, it is the apocalypse! Transitions and disruptions like this are part of the process of the evolution of society.

You may have the patience and psychological detachment required to just watch the Tories carve more flesh off the bone while Labour "sorts out its soul", but maybe thats because you're not looking at the ebb and flow from a more immediate and necessary viewpoint. We're in the process of leaving the fucking EU because the wrong party was at the wheel. Thats an absolute no-way back situation that Corbyn has allowed and no-doubt secretly wanted to happen.

Every year Labour spends as a beached whale, services are cut and may never return due to momentum. It took Blair and a Labour government two terms to fully turn some stuff around while things like rail remained irrevocably fucked. The longer the wait, the more damage becomes permanent. I'm not okay with that, the sane side of the Labour party isn't okay with that.

Corbyn doesn't give a shit about actually leading a government. He doesn't want to compromise, he doesn't want to have to 'deal', but damn, I guess all this social media attention and popularity feels good so he won't let anyone get in to do the actual job.

I find myself having the confusing thoughts right now of "Well yes, May actually wants to do the job so I guess...in a way, I support that?" despite loathing the Tory party to its very core. That's not good fucking news for Labour!
 

twobear

sputum-flecked apoplexy
Look at what he literally said this morning about NHS research and private companies? That's what we are talking about, not what he wrote last year.

Yes, and I'm saying, given his history on the issue it seems like his problem is more with research being farmed out en masse to private companies rather than any of it being done by them at all.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
The NIHR?

I'm not actually too clued up about the NIHR, but my impression was that their research was mostly operational (i.e., how can we make X work in a hospital/what is the effect-cost ratio) and not on producing new medicines or treatments or whatever.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
It's also infuriating that everything is a fight against something. Again, to reference Blair - they laid out a clear vision for the country and it didn't rely on every other sentence being "The Tories are evil". Everything from Corbyn is a fight against something, it's always a protest - a push back. Nothing is ever defined on it's own, it's always in reference to something else.

This is true of the anti-Corbynites as well, though. Eagle's headline policy was being the daughter of a seamstress. Smith doesn't have any of his own policies, but he can give you a knock-down price on a bunch of everybody else's.
 

twobear

sputum-flecked apoplexy
I'm not actually too clued up about the NIHR, but my impression was that their research was mostly operational (i.e., how can we make X work in a hospital/what is the effect-cost ratio) and not on producing new medicines or treatments or whatever.

Perhaps, but I'm sure that's something that private companies would love to do too. In any case, research on new medicines and treatments is also done by public sector researchers in NHS hospitals and clinical trials involve NHS patients, and hence involves the NHS in a central and important way.
 
D

Deleted member 80556

Unconfirmed Member
How exactly it "obvious" to you this isn't about his leadership qualities when everyone has made clear that is what it is about:

Do you think all of these are fabricated? That seems to be Corbyn's position as well so you are in good company.

Man, that's just pure incompetence.

It's an incredible contrast to see the Democratic party in the US take advantage of the Republican's idiocy, but Labour doesn't even try because they have no clear common goals. I say that as an outsider, so I might be wrong. It's a shame to see a progressive party being so incapacitated to do anything against the conservative party. Clearly showed with the Brexit vote.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Perhaps, but I'm sure that's something that private companies would love to do too. In any case, research on new medicines and treatments is also done by public sector researchers in NHS hospitals and clinical trials involve NHS patients, and hence involves the NHS in a central and important way.

Yes, I agree, but I don't think you could develop many new medicines solely with public sector involvement. The costs of developing these things are absolutely gargantuan (I think the current industry average is £1,940 million pounds per drug that hits the market) and the public sector doesn't have that sort of money to throw around. Not to mention that the UK is very, very good at it - pharmaceuticals are one of our top five exports and are responsible for a reasonably large part of the UK economy. Obviously we need to be very careful private interests don't undermine public interests, but at the same time, getting as many private companies involved in medical research is probably one of the best things we can be doing both for the economy and for the improvement of the standard of medicine in the UK and around the world.
 

twobear

sputum-flecked apoplexy
Man, that's just pure incompetence.

It's an incredible contrast to see the Democratic party in the US take advantage of the Republican's idiocy, but Labour doesn't even try because they have no clear common goals. I say that as an outsider, so I might be wrong. It's a shame to see a progressive party being so incapacitated to do anything against the conservative party. Clearly showed with the Brexit vote.

It's difficult to do anything about Tory idiocy when most of the country disagrees about how idiotic it is. See, for instance, Osborne's economic nonsense about the country 'maxing out its credit card', and that if spending isn't cut immediately and severely, 'the UK will be the next Greece'. I don't know if you'd find a credible economist in the country that agrees with those claims, but they were accepted as political orthodoxy and he had broad popular support for doing it. Even the fact that they failed and set the economy back by several years was successfully spun as being a vindication of his economic plan.

Which brings me around to what I was saying yesterday: the left wing in the UK political sphere in the UK is dead, gone, buried. We are in for a generation of Tory government and I see no good reasons to think otherwise. The Tories can say or do anything they like and spin it as a success no matter how badly wrong it goes. They are, by this point, simply too entrenched in the apparatus of power and have too strong a control over its reigns. Even when they lose, they win.

Yes, I agree, but I don't think you could develop many new medicines solely with public sector involvement. The costs of developing these things are absolutely gargantuan (I think the current industry average is £1,940 million pounds per drug that hits the market) and the public sector doesn't have that sort of money to throw around. Not to mention that the UK is very, very good at it - pharmaceuticals are one of our top five exports and are responsible for a reasonably large part of the UK economy. Obviously we need to be very careful private interests don't undermine public interests, but at the same time, getting as many private companies involved in medical research is probably one of the best things we can be doing both for the economy and for the improvement of the standard of medicine in the UK and around the world.

Which is why I didn't say that all medical research should be conducted by public companies; I was only pointing out that even if the NHS doesn't conduct its own research into new medicines and treatments (or conducts only a minimal amount), it is implicated in a lot of it due to owning the hospitals and research centres, and being responsible for the majority of patients that operate as clinical trial subjects.
 

Maledict

Member
Man, that's just pure incompetence.

It's an incredible contrast to see the Democratic party in the US take advantage of the Republican's idiocy, but Labour doesn't even try because they have no clear common goals. I say that as an outsider, so I might be wrong. It's a shame to see a progressive party being so incapacitated to do anything against the conservative party. Clearly showed with the Brexit vote.

The U.K. Is what happens when Bernie Sander's wins the primaries.

Politics is about compromise, building alliances and forging coalitions. Ideologues on either side are totally unsuited to leading - be they Cruz or Corbyn.
 

kmag

Member
Yes, and I'm saying, given his history on the issue it seems like his problem is more with research being farmed out en masse to private companies rather than any of it being done by them at all.

And I'm saying, it doesn't matter what his problem actually is with the policy. What matters is that some like yourself who obviously pays attention to things and knows a bit about Corbyn is having to such supposition to work out what he actually meant. To the layman and the general public (if they're not playing Pokemon Go) it just reads as anti business...

...especially considering his other big headline policy splash today is blatantly anti-business, but that's what he gets for letting May steal all the low hanging fruit last week.

Corbyn has a communication issue above all else. Politics is the art of effective communication.
 

kirblar

Member
It's also infuriating that everything is a fight against something. Again, to reference Blair - they laid out a clear vision for the country and it didn't rely on every other sentence being "The Tories are evil". Everything from Corbyn is a fight against something, it's always a protest - a push back. Nothing is ever defined on it's own, it's always in reference to something else.
Joker's dog chasing cars line is pretty appropriate for both ideological extremes.

All barking, no ability to actually do anything productive if they get in power, only destructive.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
It's difficult to do anything about Tory idiocy when most of the country disagrees about how idiotic it is. See, for instance, Osborne's economic nonsense about the country 'maxing out its credit card', and that if spending isn't cut immediately and severely, 'the UK will be the next Greece'. I don't know if you'd find a credible economist in the country that agrees with those claims, but they were accepted as political orthodoxy and he had broad popular support for doing it. Even the fact that they failed and set the economy back by several years was successfully spun as being a vindication of his economic plan.

It's more than just that, though. I think a large proportion of Conservative voters are economically closer to Labour than they are to the Conservatives, but they feel Labour is too cosmopolitan/liberal. This is true (even more so, in fact) for UKIP.


This is a pretty common research conclusion in PolSci. Basically, they ask a bunch of questions on policy stances, and then see which stances correlate - meaning, if someone tells you how they feel about X issue, how well can you guess what they think about other issues? Generally speaking, there are two dimensions. People end up being economically left/right and socially expansive/inexpansive (the paper I took the image from above calls them cosmopolitan/communitarian, but I don't think that's a very useful way to think about it).

It's not really "libertarianism vs. authoritarianism" like you see on online political compasses because they don't actually track very well people's claims of how much they value liberty/freedom, so while libertarianism vs. authoritarianism might be a matter of genuine debate between identifiable principles, it's largely an academic one that doesn't appear to matter to most people's decision making. Instead, it's more something like "how widely you perceive your identity", with lower values meaning you tend to offer less support to people not like yourself (i.e., gays, or non-white ethnicities, or poor people, etc.).

The increasingly pertinent conclusion is that the left/right divide is beginning to matter less and less. Inglehart and Dalton have both put out papers pointing out that your economic left/right stance is becoming steadily less and less predictive of how you vote, and it seems to correlate with the design of key institutions that fostered and mobilized a base - economic leftism started to die with the death of the unions. Among people below the age of 30, politics almost *entirely* splits on the expansive/inexpansive dimension, and your social views actually predict your economic views, unlike older generations where being economically leftwing can sometimes still include being socially very conservative, and vice versa being economically right wing can still allow for a very permissive attitude towards homosexuality and non-white ethnicities.

What's happening in British politics is that parties are having to realign from their traditional left/right axes and move towards expansive/inexpansive ones, but we're in a FPTP so that's like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. Labour is losing out because Labour is positioning itself in the wrong spot entirely. In the graph above, if you weight the centre of each party's support according to the number of supporters, and try to find the geometric mean, it's about here:


In other words, the Labour Party is struggling because more centrist Labourites economically are defecting to the Lib Dems, sure, but *much* more importantly, more inexpansive Labourites socially are defecting to UKIP. By contrast, the Conservatives actually have a really 'uncontested' part of the British electorate. You can even see that the winning point in British politics is effectively the economically moderate, socially centrist side of the Conservatives - it's little wonder that the Coalition and then in turn Cameron won (and I suspect as May goes on her popularity will begin to recede).

Now, obviously this is reducing politics to a rather simple level. There are non-ideological reasons to select parties, such as perceptions of competence, that don't feature in this. People may not believe a party when it announces a policy position change, and so not follow it. Rather than always vote for the nearest party ideologically, people may simply not vote if the nearest party is too far away. Parties actually have the ability to 'shape' the political landscape very slowly over time by prioritizing some issues and downplaying others. Nevertheless, it serves as a good illustration of the point that Labour is losing not really because of economics but because of social issues, because it's closer to the correct point on the economic axis than it is to the correct point on the social axis.

Labour lived when the primary motivating factor for both metropolitan liberals and the working classes was economic issues. It is dying because that is no longer the case. The big problem is that the winning point has now moved *outside* the opinion spread of Labour's core support base - to win, they need to move the party to a point where it is too centrist for effectively all of its own (current) support. The Conservatives, by contrast, just need to make sure the nutters don't take charge, because the winning point is a point that exists inside the Conservative's current base (although having said that the nutters are now in charge, so we'll see how long that lasts...).

EDIT: As a side note, interestingly the SNP is actually a hugely amorphous party. You'll find a huge swathe of different opinions in there; there doesn't seem to be much agreement on anything except the idea that Scotland should be independent.
 

twobear

sputum-flecked apoplexy
Long, interesting post.

Thanks for that, lots of food for thought. Although, I wasn't necessarily saying that the entire argument revolves around the economy, only using it an example of how powerless anybody who disagrees with the Tories manufactured 'facts' is to do anything about it.
 
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