Cindi Mayweather
Member
I'm pretty sure I did say that Mega Man had trial and error multiple times.
I don't necessarily consider trial and error bad. It depends on what kind it is. Sonic 1 feels like the bad kind to me.
Replaying Sonic the Hedgehog reveals it was kind of bad
- Thread starter Cindi Mayweather
- Start date
I'm pretty sure I did say that Mega Man had trial and error multiple times.
I don't necessarily consider trial and error bad. It depends on what kind it is. Sonic 1 feels like the bad kind to me.
Have to defend it a little bit, as I just played through it a few months back: Sonic 1 is not great, but it's certainly not bad. Sonic 2 was great, and Sonic 3+K was the pinnacle of the series (IMO). I always felt like what Sonic 1 lacked in gameplay and level design (my biggest knocks against it, and what I think your knocks against it are as well if I'm reading you right), it made up for in art style, music, and graphics, which at the time it released were qualities that made it such a successful system seller.
I can see where you are coming from with Labyrinth Zone though, always disliked that zone.
I can see where you are coming from with Labyrinth Zone though, always disliked that zone.
To this point you've done a pretty poor job at explaining why though.
Saying "that's the feeling I have" doesn't tell us anything.
"Sega was never good and never was a real presence next to Nintendo"
Seven Force
Banned
Reading through the Mario World Vs Sonic 1 visuals thread was like being in the fucking Twilight Zone
Mr Waluigi
Banned
I just replayed Sonic 1 after years of not touching it. Could OP be any more wrong in any other moment of his life?
Sonic 1 is piss easy. It does suffer from not knowing whether it wants to be more about speed (Green Hill, Star Light) or platforming (Marble, Labyrinth) but bad enemy placement is not an issue. Are you complaining that there is an Orbinaut right next to an air bubble? The idea is to dodge the enemy's attacks, you know. The air bubble is a trap if you're careless and an ultimatum if you're about to drown but it's not badly placed or cheap.
Sonic 1 is piss easy. It does suffer from not knowing whether it wants to be more about speed (Green Hill, Star Light) or platforming (Marble, Labyrinth) but bad enemy placement is not an issue. Are you complaining that there is an Orbinaut right next to an air bubble? The idea is to dodge the enemy's attacks, you know. The air bubble is a trap if you're careless and an ultimatum if you're about to drown but it's not badly placed or cheap.
Nocturnowl
Member
Pretty much the way I feel as well.
It's no surprise finding out that so much time went into making Green Hill Zone a great opening showcase for the game's momentum focused gameplay that they ended up cobbling the rest together in much less time where they had to fall back on more standard platforming, except with a character whose slow to start doing anything ever thus is just ends up plodding
Marble Zone suuuuuuucks.
SonicMegaDrive
Member
I only first noticed it a few years ago when that one YouTube video got posted. You know, the one with the two nerdy looking guys who said Sonic moves too quickly in order to avoid enemies. I've noticed since then a lot of people have parroted that opinion.
lastrealgameralive
Member
Try replaying it on a real system (Genesis).
Cindi Mayweather
Member
It's hard for me to explain. A lot of the later levels don't feel intuitive at all to me. In Mega Man, you play the level and realize you have a bit of a hard time with the boss with your current weapon so you play with the game a bit and find new uses for weapons. It's trial and error, but at its heart, it's a learning experience combined with testing your skill as a player. In Sonic 1, it doesn't feel a test in skill. There were many sections I blazed through, only to realize how dumb they were, like the loop in Scrap Brain (I think Act 2?). If you got too fast, you'll get caught with a dead end and die, but if you go the right speed and not too fast you'll have enough time to recover and adapt. And it's fine on its own, but it doesn't make it good game design. It fixes a gap in knowledge, but I consider a great platformer as something you can adapt to on the fly and doesn't resort to things like that. A good example are the sun stages in Mario 3. The sun chases after you and it's best to stay at a constant pace rather than sit there and let the sun harass you. It's something you can adapt to on the fly. In Megaman, you might be fighting a boss that takes a bit to kill with the P shooter, and still make it out. These examples test skill. But in Sonic 1, it feels like too many areas of the trial and error are less about skill and more about applying knowledge. As in, you know there's a gap at the end of that loop on the bottom section of Scrap Brain Act 2, but getting past the gap isn't hard. The only reason you died is because you didn't know it was there, not because it was hard and required platforming skills.
A lot of nes games required platforming skills. In Sonic, I'd go through parts that didn't take any skill at all, but you could still die because you didn't know about it. So even though I lived, because I already know the game front to back, in my head I'm thinking,"that was poorly designed and not remotely challenging."
I hate Marble Zone. There are so many parts where you need to slow down and it becomes about precision instead of speed.
superNESjoe
Member
A lot of people parroted that because they felt the same way but never could put their finger on why, or could articulate it. There's one point made in that video that I started making in High School during the Gamecube era, and have argued ever since (although I wouldn't ever say they were never good), and that's that the game's entire gimmick is counter-intuitive to its design.
It's about going fast, your reward is going fast, but when you go fast you are going too fast to read the game. You are given very few frames to react to oncoming environment changes or enemies. Not very few seconds, very few frames. In many cases if you hit top speed you have a window of response so short that no person could be expected to react to it. You need to have the levels memorized to take advantage of that speed. Yeah, it's a reward for memorizing the levels and getting really good, but it feels counter-intuitive in the moment-to-moment gameplay.
When someone makes a great point, and it's adopted and repeated a lot, it doesn't diminish the value of that point.
*her life
I hope Cindi doesn't feel dogpiled on but this narrative has run dry.
I've noticed the same thing happening with Crash Bandicoot too. I get that it was kinda fun to make fun of the seemingly hopeless fanbase, but the way people then started to act like the original Naughty Dog games were actually bad was a bizarre thing to witness.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
I know it's Sonic and gotta go fast, but, sometimes a bit of patience is needed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXqGnne_aSk#t=1m44s
It's a pretty slow zone and I can see why people dislike it, but, despite that, I somehow don't dislike labyrinth zone, I dislike sonic 2's metropolis zone more than any sonic 1 zone even.
NinjaCoachZ
Member
FWIW, I feel like there are legitimate criticisms specific to Sonic 1 that are fair to make. I don't think Cindi is implying that the series as a whole was never good, but that the first game was pretty rough, which I can agree with to certain extents.
Marble Zone would be fine if it were the third level or something.
The problem is that it's the second. So you're fresh off the high of having blazed through Green Hill Zone and are ready for some more, but you have to wait 15 seconds for the slooooooowww block you're standing on to slowly swim through the lava. Eh.
Marble Zone would be fine if it were the third level or something.
The problem is that it's the second. So you're fresh off the high of having blazed through Green Hill Zone and are ready for some more, but you have to wait 15 seconds for the slooooooowww block you're standing on to slowly swim through the lava. Eh.
I don't mind marble zone, Its laybrinth zone and scrap brain zone that I hate. Labyrinth zone is the level that made me dislike all water levels in future games. Hydrocity Zone in sonic 3 made me love water levels all over again. Scrap brain just constantly reinforces the feeling that speed is bad, even after starlight zone was like a reward and a breath of fresh air after the suffocating slowness of labyrinth zone.
Voysa Reezun
Banned
It's my least favorite level in the game, too, but I think that it's a lot like Spring Yard or Star Light in that you have these very deliberately platform-y segments that, if you beat them, allow you to get free and go on a speed run as a reward. The problem is that Marble Zone has the least enjoyable straightaways; they're short and often are bisected by gaps that you have to jump.
I replayed the entire series several years ago, and still found the first game to be quite fun. My least favorite was CD. The time traveling mechanic was cool, but something about the pacing felt off/slow, and the bonus stages sucked. I find CD to be the most overrated in the Genesis series (and 3 the most underrated).
funkystudent
Member
Sonic 1 is like Super Mario Bros 1 for me.
Its great to play the first few levels and bath in the nostalgia but as a game it got massively leapfrogged by its sequels.
Its great to play the first few levels and bath in the nostalgia but as a game it got massively leapfrogged by its sequels.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
My favorite thing about this thread is that people assume this is my first time playing Sonic 1.
Like I didn't memorize that Labyrinth Zone boss when I was 7 years old.
But here's my point. Because you've memorized it doesn't make it good.
Like I didn't memorize that Labyrinth Zone boss when I was 7 years old.
But here's my point. Because you've memorized it doesn't make it good.
Mr Waluigi
Banned
Can't the male pronoun be used by default? Or is that "they"?
NinjaCoachZ
Member
They/them/theirs is generally accepted as the gender-neutral pronoun.
Brian_FETO
Banned
This is dead on
Every time I'd sit down to play Sonic 1 as a kid I'd be like "yeah! Green Hill Zone!"
Marble Zone hits and I'm like "ehh nevermind"
Cindi Mayweather
Member
I don't feel dogpiled at all. I expected it.
Playing Sonic 2 later. Hopefully it's not shit.
Playing Sonic 2 later. Hopefully it's not shit.
Some of your arguments are perfectly reasonable.
I don't feel your conclusion follows from your post though. Every game has questionable decisions and rough portions, even some of the well-regarded classics you definitively claim are much better than Sonic 1.
What there is to memorize in that boss?
You either get hit by the projectiles and spikes or you don't. If you fuck up you either lose rings or the shield, but the game isn't surprising you with the obstacles. It shows you why you failed, cause you just misjumped, and puts the water there to press you to climb.
It is a straight test of skill against elements you faced during the rest of the level. By the point of LZ3's boss, you _must_ know how those little lances moves and how those cat statues fire projectiles.
Arguing that you have to memorize it is ridiculous. Remembering that there is a lance after two cat faces helps you nothing cause you still gotta do the jumps either way.
Brian_FETO
Banned
Keep fighting the good fight, the science will win out in the end
If the original games are as bad/worse, then which are the good ones?
SonicMegaDrive
Member
Just for kicks, I threw in my copy of Sonic 1 and went through a few levels. I don't have the game memorized to the point where i know exactly where all of the enemies are placed and yet I still had no issue avoiding enemies even going full tilt. Granted, my reaction time is probably a lot keener than many as I do tend to prefer faster-paced games like shooters and racing games. I don't know what to tell you. In my opinion, gamers weaned on older styled games shouldn't have any difficulty playing Sonic. It wasn't an issue 25 years ago. I think games todays are a lot less demanding of the player in general and people weaned on them/used to them often have a hard time going back.
Teletraan1
Banned
Sonic was a 1 trick pony that was only good when the levels were masterwork. Outside of that handful of content the whole series was trash imo.
ROUGE_BLOCK
Member
Yeah I agree OP as I recently beat Sonic 1 and man that game does not hold up very well. Some levels like Green Hill Zone, the Spingyard city or whatever it's called are great because it has ramps and the objective is too move fast as you can through the level.
Other fucking levels like Green Marble Zone or Labyrinth Zone as you said are weighed down by how traditional platform levels they are built in a game about moving really fast with nontraditional platform stages. Anytime Sonic is slowed down so he can move through water really slowly avoiding spikes while avoid enemies while spikes literally spawn out of nowhere from the place you just jumped too. I will say thank God for save states as I played the 360 ports on the XB1, because man did I die from so many cheap ass random deaths that was quintessential of games from that era.
However Sonic 2&3 have way better game design and hold up so much better, the first Sonic game may the most infamous one because it was the first but the sequels are just better designed games. Sonic Mania itself looks to take a lot of inspiration from the fast moving levels of the first Sonic mixed in with the weird city designs of the sequels. Which looks great IMO.
Other fucking levels like Green Marble Zone or Labyrinth Zone as you said are weighed down by how traditional platform levels they are built in a game about moving really fast with nontraditional platform stages. Anytime Sonic is slowed down so he can move through water really slowly avoiding spikes while avoid enemies while spikes literally spawn out of nowhere from the place you just jumped too. I will say thank God for save states as I played the 360 ports on the XB1, because man did I die from so many cheap ass random deaths that was quintessential of games from that era.
However Sonic 2&3 have way better game design and hold up so much better, the first Sonic game may the most infamous one because it was the first but the sequels are just better designed games. Sonic Mania itself looks to take a lot of inspiration from the fast moving levels of the first Sonic mixed in with the weird city designs of the sequels. Which looks great IMO.
Seven Force
Banned
Play up to Oil Ocean and then pretend the rest of the game doesn't exist.
Real talk though, the quality falls off a cliff after Oil Ocean.
I feel like they're the same kind of people who probably continually run off-track on technical turns in racing sims.
Now that I think of it, the way you play the 2d Sonic games is rather similar to racing a course. You start off doing slow laps to get a hang of the track, and then gradually add speed each lap until you're clipping apexes and exiting corners carrying a lot of speed. The Sonic games are usually more forgiving if you do fuck up though.
If the 2d Sonic games are race tracks, Sonic CD would be the Nurburgring.
NinjaCoachZ
Member
What I think is interesting about Sonic CD is that the game parallels the same level buildup as Sonic 1, but with Quartz Quadrant and Wacky Workbench thrown in.
Green Hill Zone = Palmtree Panic
Spring Yard Zone = Collision Chaos
Labyrinth Zone = Tidal Tempest
Star Light Zone = Stardust Speedway
Scrap Brain Zone = Metallic Madness
The main difference is that Sonic CD doesn't have a Marble Zone counterpart. Hell there's pretty infamously a ton of evidence in the game that there was supposed to be ("R2" is missing from the files - Palmtree Panic is R1 and Collision Chaos is R3, and there's a part in the ending that shows Sonic in a weird location with an enemy not seen in the final game). But there isn't.
Why'd this happen? Because even the creators of Sonic CD knew that Marble Zone was shit.
Green Hill Zone = Palmtree Panic
Spring Yard Zone = Collision Chaos
Labyrinth Zone = Tidal Tempest
Star Light Zone = Stardust Speedway
Scrap Brain Zone = Metallic Madness
The main difference is that Sonic CD doesn't have a Marble Zone counterpart. Hell there's pretty infamously a ton of evidence in the game that there was supposed to be ("R2" is missing from the files - Palmtree Panic is R1 and Collision Chaos is R3, and there's a part in the ending that shows Sonic in a weird location with an enemy not seen in the final game). But there isn't.
Why'd this happen? Because even the creators of Sonic CD knew that Marble Zone was shit.
daTRUballin
Member
Don't forget about the whole "Donkey Kong Country 1 was never good" argument either.
Voysa Reezun
Banned
Sonic 2's Spin Dash really opens the game up and allows you to decide on how to approach lips, valleys, etc. You can use it as an attack, as a way to make a speed run, or as a way to explore via launching yourself off of areas where you'll shoot into the air.
The level design in water levels is improved as I said earlier because of the emphasis on rewarding players who can stay vertical with water-free or water-limited paths. In general, the stuff that works well is basically like Casino Night or Emerald Hill where you get platforming sections followed by speed run sections, except in Sonic 2, you can approach the platforming sections differently because of the ability to use speed dash on some of the obstacles to forge a path ahead.
The levels that are more platforming-heavy are really good, too. Mystic Cave, for example, is legitimately good platforming in a game and series that people don't give enough credit to for the platforming. I'd say Hill Top is also really good with the platforming.
And finally, the level design is so varied and creative. Casino Night and Sky Chase come immediately to mind.
The only thing I hate about this game are those FUCKING praying mantis enemies in Metropolis Zone. Fuuuuuuck those guys flinging projectiles at me while I'm stuck on a slow-moving platform.
But yeah, if you don't like Sonic 2, IMO you just should stop playing Sonic at all. To me, Sonic 2 blends platforming, exploration, and the exhilaration of simply using the game mechanics in a way that isn't matched by any platformer until SM64 comes out four years later. There's a reason that I voted it number one on my Games of Gen 4 list.
The level design in water levels is improved as I said earlier because of the emphasis on rewarding players who can stay vertical with water-free or water-limited paths. In general, the stuff that works well is basically like Casino Night or Emerald Hill where you get platforming sections followed by speed run sections, except in Sonic 2, you can approach the platforming sections differently because of the ability to use speed dash on some of the obstacles to forge a path ahead.
The levels that are more platforming-heavy are really good, too. Mystic Cave, for example, is legitimately good platforming in a game and series that people don't give enough credit to for the platforming. I'd say Hill Top is also really good with the platforming.
And finally, the level design is so varied and creative. Casino Night and Sky Chase come immediately to mind.
The only thing I hate about this game are those FUCKING praying mantis enemies in Metropolis Zone. Fuuuuuuck those guys flinging projectiles at me while I'm stuck on a slow-moving platform.
But yeah, if you don't like Sonic 2, IMO you just should stop playing Sonic at all. To me, Sonic 2 blends platforming, exploration, and the exhilaration of simply using the game mechanics in a way that isn't matched by any platformer until SM64 comes out four years later. There's a reason that I voted it number one on my Games of Gen 4 list.
Dragoon En Regalia
Member
Labyrinth Zone ranks low for me, but it's well-designed in a number of ways. There's adequate pacing and placement of bubble spawns throughout each act to encourage exploring around safety spots, the rising/falling pulleys are a better, interactive version of Marble Zone's magma blocks, and you get more open routes and environments to spring and jump through vs. Marble Zone. What it lacks in speed and flow Star Light Zone makes up for, and Scrap Brain summarizes the game while spiking challenge in a way that forces you to examine options on the fly.
If you haven't been exploring to collect rings while curling/jumping defensively to get lives and special stages, then I can understand how Sonic 1 seems punishing in an unfair way, but it didn't come across to me like that. I just replayed the game yesterday for a few hours and had a blast, even if it's only good with moments of greatness. Moments like being sent back to Labyrinth Zone in Scrap Brain Act 3, the ultimate ruins appropriated by Eggman to become a dungeon, work surprisingly well; then you have cycling special stage access up through Star Light just in case you missed previous rings, plus a general balance between precision platforming and goofball areas like those in Spring Yard. At times it feels more like a proof of concept than the full-feeling adventures in Sonic 2/3 & Knuckles, but it doesn't overstay its welcome and/or leave me seething in frustration.
Boy Wander
Member
I actually enjoy Sonic 1 the most of the Genesis titles. I'm sure I'm in a minority here but it hits the right nostalgia buttons for me.
ienjoyrawfish
Member
Bolded is the key. It's particularly obvious that this applies to 95%+ of the "Sonic was never good" crowd. I'd like to think that this isn't indicative of modern gaming, because it's pretty depressing if the medium has been debased so much that a game designed for children in 1991 is considered unfair and difficult by today's standards.
If these adolescent revisionist historians can't even handle Sonic, I'd love to see them attempt Contra, R-Type and the like.
"These games were terrible even back then"
"It's just cheap design to make money for arcades"
"How are you supposed to dodge that? You've got no time to react"
"There's no way you'd do this without memorisation"
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Metropolis is the best zone in the game though.
Professor Beef
Banned
I'm sure your review will be spectacular with that attitude.
Man, Marble Zone is probably my favorite Zone in Sonic 1. The opinions you learn about 25 years after the fact thanks to the internet are... well... soul destroying, really.
superNESjoe
Member
It definitely is more lenient in the beginning of the game. It gets much more restricting further on.
Even then, as with you I didn't have an issue with it as a kid, I enjoyed the game, it's just something I noticed and found fault with later on. I still think it's a valid point. Unlike the video you referred to I am not as adamantly vocal that the game was never good or that it's garbage. I just think it is counter-intuitive. It won't feel that way to everybody, and despite my feelings I'm also able to play and enjoy it just fine like you did.
NinjaCoachZ
Member
I'm sorry :'(
Well, FWIW, I was kinda more ribbing it if anything. I don't reeeaaally think it's shit. That's just kind of my way of poking fun at the things I like or have memories of, etc...
I think it's more accurate to say my opinion is that I don't think it really works as a second level. Like I said earlier, if it was level 3 or 4 then I think it'd be all right. My problem with it is that when I revisit the game I'm always on an adrenaline rush from Green Hill Zone, so the slow, waiting-around nature of Marble Zone is kind of whiplash-inducing. It's a good level in itself, but I think it just throws off the game flow, know what I mean?
Cindi Mayweather
Member
I agree a lot of NES games have questionable stuff. It's one of the core themes of that era, but I don't think this extends to a lot of the classics. Well, the good classics.
I will also agree a lot of games have questionable content.
But in a platformer, test in skill and level design are huge. If your game lacks in the skill department, but it has a lot of areas that you die on only because you didn't knew they existed, can it really be said to be well designed?
This isn't being reflected in my post because it's hard for to describe being able to get past something on my first time because as a kid, I already memorized it, but still manage to say,"well, that's dumb." Like in Marble Zone. There's a section where you ride the block to the other side, go in the secret wall and get the 1 up. There is no spring conveniently placed right next to the 1 up box to continue. Nope. Gotta go on the block and ride it to the other end, and ride it AGAIN to the other opposite end to make the jump. It's poorly designed, slow, plodding. and just because I was able to stomach it as a kid doesn't make it good as an adult. That design decision was patent trash.