Too many people in this tread are saying it's either objectively good or objectively bad.
Edit: Ah great...top of page...
Replaying Sonic the Hedgehog reveals it was kind of bad
- Thread starter Cindi Mayweather
- Start date
Too many people in this tread are saying it's either objectively good or objectively bad.
Edit: Ah great...top of page...
This is some shitty oppinion.
The game certainly has some problems, but it's still good.
2 and 3 & Knuckles are the best though...
CD... I don't really like that game except the movie at the beginning and the OVA it generated. Even then, I'll try to give it a chance replaying the mobile port (with Bluestacks).
The game certainly has some problems, but it's still good.
2 and 3 & Knuckles are the best though...
CD... I don't really like that game except the movie at the beginning and the OVA it generated. Even then, I'll try to give it a chance replaying the mobile port (with Bluestacks).
You know Sonic CD got a PC release right? It's on Steam, it's the Taxman version, only Sonic 1 and 2 didn't get released anywhere else but mobile.
Nostremitus
Member
Sonic has too many blindsiding unavoidable deaths when you are moving fast. If you aren't fast, you can't make jumps, loops, etc... But if you are moving fast you're gonna get hit by enemy ranged attacks or run into spikes... It's like they created a racetrack, but then gave your car flat tires.
I went back and played Sonic 2 earlier this week... It's not a fun game... Especially when you compare it to Nintendo's offerings that it directly competed against.
I went back and played Sonic 2 earlier this week... It's not a fun game... Especially when you compare it to Nintendo's offerings that it directly competed against.
Airola
Member
I think by the time Sonic 3 came out I was losing interest in Sonic games. I liked Sonic 1. I didn't love it but I liked it. When Sonic 2 came out, I recall I might've still liked Sonic 1 better.
For me, the later levels of Sonic 1 was the meat of the game. I never understood the appeal of running as fast as you can. Sonic was better when it was slow platforming and trying to hold on to at least one coin at all times.
And I liked Labyrinth Zone. It was tense as fuck!
To me, Sonic 1 showed all the series had to offer. While 2 and 3 were pleasant rehashes of the idea, all later Sonic games have been unnecessary. I can't enjoy Colors or Lost World at all. Sonic 1 is all I need from the series.
For me, the later levels of Sonic 1 was the meat of the game. I never understood the appeal of running as fast as you can. Sonic was better when it was slow platforming and trying to hold on to at least one coin at all times.
And I liked Labyrinth Zone. It was tense as fuck!
To me, Sonic 1 showed all the series had to offer. While 2 and 3 were pleasant rehashes of the idea, all later Sonic games have been unnecessary. I can't enjoy Colors or Lost World at all. Sonic 1 is all I need from the series.
SonicMegaDrive
Member
Hey, I'm OK with all this "revisionist history" when it comes to Sega games as long as it comes with the eventual side-effect of the aftermarket prices on Genesis, Saturn, and Dreamcast games crashing back down to Earth!
Z..
Member
I see this all the time and I really have to ask. Sonic 2 is better than 3 & Knuckles because...?
Voysa Reezun
Banned
I mean, to go "Sonic 1 is a bad game" and then say "unlike Super fucking Mario World" as if that game wasn't cape-bouncing through half the levels is some old bullshit. Sonic 1 actually made you play the levels, unlike SMW. And I like SMW.
But opinions.
But opinions.
I wish! Too many people know the value of those games. These damn prices just keep rising.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Anyways, beat Sonic 2 a few hours ago and I didn't like it. Metropolis Zone is the only great level in the game I think. I like Sky Chase and its music really takes me back. Hill Top has its moments. Death Egg is pretty bad. I still have the muscle memory in beating Metal Sonic after all these years down to his basic pattern and that shocked me. I think going through the stage without rings is pretty lame though.
I think Sonic 2 is also a bad game but for completely different reasons.
The ending when Tails catches Sonic still gives me chills though.
The thing about Mario is you've got options. I don't have to use the cape, and the levels are still great.
I think Sonic 2 is also a bad game but for completely different reasons.
The ending when Tails catches Sonic still gives me chills though.
The thing about Mario is you've got options. I don't have to use the cape, and the levels are still great.
SonicMegaDrive
Member
I know right? For years we told them the only thing the Genesis had to offer was Altered Beast, Mortal Kombat, and about 700 sports titles. Somebody snitched.
So, rather than be snide, I thought I'd try to write an actually informative post.
Sonic and Mario are fundamentally not the same kind of game. This is a point that gets lost incredibly often. They're in roughly the same genre! They were competitors, often pitted against each other in marketing! But that's incredibly misleading, and I think it's a major cause for disappointment and confusion when a lot of people play Sonic, because they go in expecting it to be roughly the same kind of game as Mario. They even have many of the same trappings - you run, you jump, you bounce on enemies, you collect golden coins/rings, and you try to reach the end of the level.
The problem is, that's kind of where the similarities end.
Mario is, fundamentally, an obstacle course. The goal is to get from one end of the stage to the other, and there are enemies and traps and tricky platforming sections in the way that are trying to stop you, and the crux of the gameplay comes from overcoming the enemies and traps and tricky platforming sections. Stages are largely very linear, with one route from start to finish, forcing you to overcome a specific set of challenges. Enemy hits are meaningful. At best, you can only take two or three hits unless you find another mushroom or powerup. While there are pretty worthless enemies, like Goombas, enemies like Koopas or Lakitus have a second gameplay utility to the player that is often useful or even required to complete the level. Ideally you want to grab every single coin you see, as they get you all-important 1ups. In a difficult Mario level, the difficulty is largely derived from the challenge of overcoming the obstacles placed between you and the end of the stage without dying.
But Sonic is not an obstacle course. Sonic is a playground.
Sonic is about execution and repetition. Sonic has large sprawling levels that you will almost certainly not see in their entirety in a single run. Sonic has slopes and loops and springs that play into the game's physics to create speed and momentum, so you can learn where they are and take advantage of them to get through the level as quickly as possible. Getting hit isn't a big deal - as long as you have just one ring, you live, and now you know where an obstacle is. Enemies exist primarily to slow you down and force you to react, rather than to kill you. Rings are used primarily as a metric of how much you've fucked up - the more rings you have, the less you've been hit and the less you've died. And at the end of the stage, you are scored on how quickly you beat the level, and how little you got hit (by way of how many rings you finished with). Sonic is not about getting to the end of the level alive - usually, that's not that hard to do, unless you really fuck up. Sonic is about replaying the level, learning the best routes out of the many that are present, and getting the execution down so that you get through the level as quickly as possible without being hit.
So yes, getting to the end of a Sonic stage alive is easy, because it's meant to be - your first run is just for learning the lay of the land. The difficulty isn't in getting to the end of the stage, it's in getting to the end of the stage skillfully. So yes, enemies are not super aggressive or interactive with the level, because they primarily exist to slow you down. So yes, all the alternate routes lead you to basically the same place, because the point of the alternate routes is for the player to explore them and try to map out the best overall route through the level. Sonic is a game that's meant to be replayed and mastered, not simply overcome from beginning to end.
This is a very different kind of game than most other platformers and trying to judge it in the same way you judge a Mega Man game or a Mario game is folly.
Sonic and Mario are fundamentally not the same kind of game. This is a point that gets lost incredibly often. They're in roughly the same genre! They were competitors, often pitted against each other in marketing! But that's incredibly misleading, and I think it's a major cause for disappointment and confusion when a lot of people play Sonic, because they go in expecting it to be roughly the same kind of game as Mario. They even have many of the same trappings - you run, you jump, you bounce on enemies, you collect golden coins/rings, and you try to reach the end of the level.
The problem is, that's kind of where the similarities end.
Mario is, fundamentally, an obstacle course. The goal is to get from one end of the stage to the other, and there are enemies and traps and tricky platforming sections in the way that are trying to stop you, and the crux of the gameplay comes from overcoming the enemies and traps and tricky platforming sections. Stages are largely very linear, with one route from start to finish, forcing you to overcome a specific set of challenges. Enemy hits are meaningful. At best, you can only take two or three hits unless you find another mushroom or powerup. While there are pretty worthless enemies, like Goombas, enemies like Koopas or Lakitus have a second gameplay utility to the player that is often useful or even required to complete the level. Ideally you want to grab every single coin you see, as they get you all-important 1ups. In a difficult Mario level, the difficulty is largely derived from the challenge of overcoming the obstacles placed between you and the end of the stage without dying.
But Sonic is not an obstacle course. Sonic is a playground.
Sonic is about execution and repetition. Sonic has large sprawling levels that you will almost certainly not see in their entirety in a single run. Sonic has slopes and loops and springs that play into the game's physics to create speed and momentum, so you can learn where they are and take advantage of them to get through the level as quickly as possible. Getting hit isn't a big deal - as long as you have just one ring, you live, and now you know where an obstacle is. Enemies exist primarily to slow you down and force you to react, rather than to kill you. Rings are used primarily as a metric of how much you've fucked up - the more rings you have, the less you've been hit and the less you've died. And at the end of the stage, you are scored on how quickly you beat the level, and how little you got hit (by way of how many rings you finished with). Sonic is not about getting to the end of the level alive - usually, that's not that hard to do, unless you really fuck up. Sonic is about replaying the level, learning the best routes out of the many that are present, and getting the execution down so that you get through the level as quickly as possible without being hit.
So yes, getting to the end of a Sonic stage alive is easy, because it's meant to be - your first run is just for learning the lay of the land. The difficulty isn't in getting to the end of the stage, it's in getting to the end of the stage skillfully. So yes, enemies are not super aggressive or interactive with the level, because they primarily exist to slow you down. So yes, all the alternate routes lead you to basically the same place, because the point of the alternate routes is for the player to explore them and try to map out the best overall route through the level. Sonic is a game that's meant to be replayed and mastered, not simply overcome from beginning to end.
This is a very different kind of game than most other platformers and trying to judge it in the same way you judge a Mega Man game or a Mario game is folly.
Voysa Reezun
Banned
SMW's levels aren't that great. Hazards are easy to bypass and there's no real difficulty until you open up the Special World. There are also so many power-ups that, combined with the fact that you can store a power-up, losing them carries virtually no risk (though you won't lose them very often because the game doesn't offer much of a challenge).
I do think that SMW's levels tend to be pretty wide open, with most of the challenge coming from exploring to find alternate exits more than anything. Other than maybe Ghost Ship and Tubular, I can't think of an actual level that puts up much of a challenge. Maybe doing the cape bounce under the goal gate in that one level to get to the secret goal gate and the three-up moon is a challenge, but I got that pretty easily because I cape bounced through everything else routinely because the game didn't design a number of levels to discourage me.
SMB 3 gives you a flying meter so that you have to economize your flight and really make the most of it, and I'm not sure why they took it out of SMW and let you stay in the sky forever if you want.
If you were going to argue that SMB 3 is better than Sonic 1 (or even 2 or 3+K), I think that's a viewpoint that I totally understand even if I disagree with it. And I'm not saying that SMW is a bad game. As someone who likes exploration more than almost anything else in his platformers, I dig that part of SMW. There are quite a few good hidden exits with only a few stinkers (like the key where you have to guide some coins-that-will-become-blocks up to a ledge that you can't even see with pixel-perfect accuracy).
But honestly, as a platformer, it pales in comparison to every other big-name platformer from that era, especially Sonic 2 and 3+K where the Spin Dash mechanic opens up the game. Sonic levels with their vertical branching are also designed far better than the levels in SMW.
I probably shouldn't have made this another Sonic vs. SMW thread, but you really emphasized that the game is so good as a platformer by using that interjection, and it's not even the best platformer with the Super Mario World name. Sonic is just so much more interesting in its level design, I think. Then again, I think that classic Sonic's level design is the best level design in a platformer straight up, so I clearly have a strong bias toward it.
One of my three favorite games of all-time is NiGHTS, in which Yuji Naka also uses the concept of vertical branching to offer the player options as to how to navigate toward the exit, and so I'm just a sucker for that type of design (and for Yuji Naka - I need to get a copy of Rodea the Sky Soldier, but I digress).
Cindi Mayweather
Member
I love arcade games, but I don't see Sonic as an arcade game.
Games like Contra and Metal Slug are still kinda hard even when you've gotten to the point where you can 1c the game. You could easily lose your life in those games.
Sega games like Nights and Jet Set Radio often have an arcade twist to them. Jet Set Radio is one of my favorite games and it's one of those type of games where I could complete it in an hour if I wanted to. But knowing the game front to back doesn't take away from my enjoyment.
I'm pretty familiar with some of them. Like Mega Man 2, I have my own order and can get to Wiley Castle in 20~ minutes or so. But there's still a possibility I can fuck up and get a game over due to my play style. For example, I have a very speed-ish manner of taking on Airman's stage. It's very flashy and it's the first stage I go for. When I play that stage, I do not wait for the spike platforms to go down. I simply jump on the very, very edge of that platform. It's very risky, requires some good aiming. I...don't get that with Sonic. It's a pretty flat experience. The moments that are tricky are more annoying than fun to me. And I don't find it as fulfilling as beating Mega Man 3 or something without dying. I don't know why.
I compare Sonic more to Mega Man X. I don't like Mega Man X more than it's predecessors. I find it very weak. Unlike say, Mega Man 2 which I find requires me to still have some skill, I bust through MMX like it's nothing and it bores me as much as Sonic these days. Sure, I'm used to some games more than others. But in some cases, it feels like there's no balance. Whereas, I recently replayed SMB3 with no warp pipes, no p wings;etc and found it to be really challenging and fulfilling. I didn't get that with either Sonic game playthrough.
And it also depends on the game. As I said before, I find Super Castlevania IV to be really easy. But I still enjoy it. Easy games isn't a problem for me as long as I think them fun. I just don't find Sonic 1 and 2 fun anymore and they go against everything I enjoy about the platformer genre.
I think YI is better, but the point was to compare Sonic 1 to games of its time. YI came out like 3-4 years after Sonic 1. SMW came out a year before. So I used 1990-1992 as years to compare to Sonic 1. I think SMW is much better than Sonic 1 and would rather play it than that game. I also find in my Sonic playthrough that I think "classic" Sonic has the worst level design in a popular 16 bit platformer. But that's my opinion. I think Yoshi's Island and Rocket Knight Adventures tie for having the best.
IronicSonic
Member
How is this any different from a nice speedrun in Sonic games?
Cindi Mayweather
Member
I'm sorry but this does not seem fun at all. Getting to the end skillfully even though it's easy? What's the point then? Skill only matters if something is there to challenge you. Sonic being a playground is the exact problem with it in a genre that's typified by design that tests skill.
Sure, it may be folly to judge a Sonic game based on Mega Man or Mario but let's be honest, most platformers are judged by those same metrics. This just shows Sonic as a poor platformer, and in effect, a poor game.
Show me a Sonic stage as challenging as getting through a Mega Man. MM isn't even that hard. I do not find playing Sonic rewarding at all, but I do find speed running Mega Man rewarding. People have said in this thread that getting good at the stages in Sonic "rewards" you with the ability to go fast, but in most cases it's rewarding the player with the ability to auto pilot through the stage. It's boring. You can't autopilot in Air Man. One wrong pixel and that's a life.
Getting to the end is easy. Getting to the end quickly and without being hit is not easy. That's the point of it. It's a game that tests your level of execution, not just whether or not you can do it at all. The best analogy I can think of is something like Devil May Cry. Getting to the end of a level is one thing, and very doable. Getting SSS ranks throughout is an entirely different thing and much more difficult. (Hey, later Sonic games even implement scoring ranks!)
Most platformers are judged by the same metrics as Mega Man or Mario because most platformers are the same kind of game Mega Man or Mario is and almost no other platformer is the kind of game Sonic is. Sonic is a poor Mario game, but that doesn't make it a bad game on its own merits. If you don't like it, though, that's totally fine! Maybe it's just not your thing.
IMO the cape in SMW works very well. As an inexperienced player you won't be flying across levels, but with enough practice you can manage this, and it's rewarding to finally master the thing. Even so, I can't recall using the cape all that much on levels I hadn't already played through, as it frequently lead to death. However it was nice to be able to skip large stretches of the levels when going back to look for the secret exits.
As for Sonic, I've really tried to like the games but they just didn't click with me. Go fast, and you bump into something, go slow and, well, Mario is plain better. The game is also full of gimmicks: The loops are weird, not really based on physics so you can sort of walk through them. Going through tunnels requires zero player input, and fells to me like something added to make the game look cool on video. Even the spring to spring chains are more cool looking than anything else as they fling Sonic fast across the level with almost zero player input.
Mind, Sonic did show gamers that the MD could keep up with the SNES, making it an important milestone simply because of that.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Devil May Cry is an incredibly poor example.
Getting to the end of a stage in DMC is not easy. The enemies are aggressive. Style is important, but not as important as survival. In DMC3, there's a long stretch without a save point and you have to fight Agni and Rudra. DMC games are famous for their challenge, especially on high difficulty modes. Most games that where you have to get through the stages skillfully without getting hit and stuff, are actually challenging. Not getting hit in Sonic? Who honestly cares. It's Sonic. Not getting hit in Mega Man? Now we're talking. It's funny you keep saying Sonic is this, and Sonic is that, as if these things are unique to Sonic. I make challenges in MM games where I used the p shot only. No boss weapons. It's really hard to care about playing an easy game skillfully. What's the point?
Sonic being different than other platformers doesn't really make a case for Sonic. Easier to deduce it's just a poor platformer.
Voysa Reezun
Banned
Sonic is also a game that is clearly set up to increase replayability via speed runs. The goal is to find the fastest path through a given level via mastering the game's mechanics and choosing the paths that will offer you the most chance to gather speed.
Aaron Strife
Banned
Does anyone else think it's weird that these threads seem to pop up almost weekly (if not daily) whereas someone making a thread about the Mario NES trilogy sucking would be rightly shat on?
Number Wang
Member
Your usage of "Revisionist History" is a complete misnomer. Popular consensus on an opinion does not make that opinion fact, nor does it turn it into a past event. "Revisionist history," as it exists in this thread, is a just a half-assed attempt to repurpose the term as a pejorative term.
Voysa Reezun
Banned
Bilollipop
Member
I've grown up playing Sonic games all my life, so I'm definitely biased in my views. First game I played was Sonic and Knuckles Collection for the PC. I ended up playing the games in reverse order, finally getting to Sonic 1. Initially I disliked it. No spindash, cheap deaths from hitting spikes twice in a row, and it wasn't easy to bounce off Robotnik over and over to kill him easily.
I don't know when, but I started playing it differently and that's when I truly began to enjoy it as its own thing. The key thing about Sonic 1 is that speed is a reward (though this is true in the others, the spindash's quick speed up lessens the reward). There are few parts where you will just hold right and get through the level. There are visual cues that let you know you should start rolling and once the rolling begins the game will rarely betray you. Each level is very clearly defined in the first 10 seconds as Speed Zone or Platforming Zone.
The platforming sections are a good kind of stressful -that one part of marble zone,
The speed sections are extremely satisfying to zip through as you time the jumps to get on that higher path and shave off seconds to get a better time than the last. I've been saying how purposely rolling makes it a better game, but honestly there aren't too many things as satisfying as rolling through some loops and timing a jump just right to land on the upper path.
Recently I attempted and completed my first Chaos emerald run and it was an entirely different experience. Some people say having rings as Sonic's health devalues them, but once you're trying to hang onto at least fifty it's so much fun. You play more careful and search around the stages for shields and ring monitors and discover so much more. Now the special stages are kind of...meh, and the good ending isn't really all that satisfying like in the sequels but hot dang does it feel good to do all that in one run.
I know Sonic 1 is flawed in its balance of Speed and Platforming, but I didn't enjoy it as a game until I used rolling as a mechanic not just as a thing that happens when I exit certain loops and stuff. Running headfirst into things in the speed sections of Sonic 2/3/K didn't happen as much as the quickest way to build speed after a sudden stop is to spindash...which puts you into a nigh-invincible ball of death. The quickest way to build speed in Sonic 1 is to run forward, but the correct way to maintain this speed is to roll. Otherwise you'll just keep losing rings and patience. Once you've slowed down and unrolled, you're probably not in a very "hold right to progress area." Try playing later Sonic games without using the spin dash, you'll find yourself barreling into enemies a lot more often than you would otherwise.
I don't know when, but I started playing it differently and that's when I truly began to enjoy it as its own thing. The key thing about Sonic 1 is that speed is a reward (though this is true in the others, the spindash's quick speed up lessens the reward). There are few parts where you will just hold right and get through the level. There are visual cues that let you know you should start rolling and once the rolling begins the game will rarely betray you. Each level is very clearly defined in the first 10 seconds as Speed Zone or Platforming Zone.
The platforming sections are a good kind of stressful -that one part of marble zone,
you know the one
The speed sections are extremely satisfying to zip through as you time the jumps to get on that higher path and shave off seconds to get a better time than the last. I've been saying how purposely rolling makes it a better game, but honestly there aren't too many things as satisfying as rolling through some loops and timing a jump just right to land on the upper path.
Recently I attempted and completed my first Chaos emerald run and it was an entirely different experience. Some people say having rings as Sonic's health devalues them, but once you're trying to hang onto at least fifty it's so much fun. You play more careful and search around the stages for shields and ring monitors and discover so much more. Now the special stages are kind of...meh, and the good ending isn't really all that satisfying like in the sequels but hot dang does it feel good to do all that in one run.
I know Sonic 1 is flawed in its balance of Speed and Platforming, but I didn't enjoy it as a game until I used rolling as a mechanic not just as a thing that happens when I exit certain loops and stuff. Running headfirst into things in the speed sections of Sonic 2/3/K didn't happen as much as the quickest way to build speed after a sudden stop is to spindash...which puts you into a nigh-invincible ball of death. The quickest way to build speed in Sonic 1 is to run forward, but the correct way to maintain this speed is to roll. Otherwise you'll just keep losing rings and patience. Once you've slowed down and unrolled, you're probably not in a very "hold right to progress area." Try playing later Sonic games without using the spin dash, you'll find yourself barreling into enemies a lot more often than you would otherwise.
I mean, at a certain point we're dealing with semantics and frankly you're being kind of deliberately obtuse and not listening. Yeah, sure, on higher difficulties, clearing stages in DMC is difficult in a way Sonic is not. That's not really my point, though. My point is that there's a big skill gap required between simply clearing a stage in DMC and clearing it with high style and a high overall rank. DMC is a game where simply clearing it is only one aspect of the game, and the replay value and high-level play really revolves around getting sick-ass combos and high style ranks.
Not getting hit in difficult Sonic stages isn't easy!
Those are arbitrary rules you're imposing on yourself, not a core part of the way the game is designed.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
How is this satisfying exactly?
It's a linear path. if you spin, you go through gap. Then you hit the spring. Spin and you gain speed and momentum. Then you jump on another spring.
There's nothing involved about this. It just looks flashy.
This summary of Sonic's gameplay is a perfect description of that gif.
It's a linear path. if you spin, you go through gap. Then you hit the spring. Spin and you gain speed and momentum. Then you jump on another spring.
There's nothing involved about this. It just looks flashy.
This summary of Sonic's gameplay is a perfect description of that gif.
How is this satisfying exactly?
It's a linear path. if you spin, you go through gap. Then you hit the spring. Spin and you gain speed and momentum. Then you jump on another spring.
There's nothing involved about this. It just looks flashy.
This summary of Sonic's gameplay is a perfect description of that gif.
do you have arguments of your own or do you just copy and paste them from some other source?
further, you don't just accidentally play Sonic 1 like that, but real nice work implying that you do. I agree with the other dude above. If you think these games are bad, you're just bad at the game - they aren't any different to the other Platformers of that era. games with rules, strict controls and gameplay that rewards mastery of both. if you don't find them fun, that's fine. but they're certainly not bad by any means.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Yes. I've not made any arguments of my own in this entire thread.
Saw this gif for Sonic Mania.
It shows more of the auto platforming I was talking about. I just don't get the appeal, but different strokes. I'm amazed I managed to love these games as a kid.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Sure is a great platformer.
SonicMegaDrive
Member
I know it's been said countless times over the past week already, but damn does Sonic Mania look good. I'm actually impressed by how much it seems to just 'get it'.
I'm curious to know just how much involvement Sonic Team has with the game. I'm assuming very little.
I'm curious to know just how much involvement Sonic Team has with the game. I'm assuming very little.
Dunno about that. I do like Sonic games though.
These are all perfectly valid points, though. Good platformers are about flow you should be able to fly through them without hitting anything, even if it's your first time seeing them. Sonic's trial-and-error, stop-and-go design has always interrupted that flow.
You could probably take a different route that's more platform heavy. The speed sections can sometimes be a reward for those that took a certain paths. Usually the upper path has these speed sections while the lower sections are platform heavy. It can be hard to stay on the upper path at all times though.
There's an upper path in Flying Battery Zone that's super fast and helps take you to the end of the level. It's easy to miss just running through and if your timing sucks you'll waste time getting up there. Going another path, it's more platform heavy. But it's worth it because going fast can be fun and a reward.
There's an upper path in Flying Battery Zone that's super fast and helps take you to the end of the level. It's easy to miss just running through and if your timing sucks you'll waste time getting up there. Going another path, it's more platform heavy. But it's worth it because going fast can be fun and a reward.
Man Cindi I'm surprised and pleased to see this thread. I've been saying for years that the original sonic games never actually were good. The design is fundamentally at odds with itself ... It's game design by way of marketing campaign.
The game's aesthetic and controls positively reinforce momentum and speed, but the levels (outside of the self playing loopy parts) punish speed and reward caution.
I played these games as a kid like many people did, and I understand nostalgia, but these games simply don't hold up under scrutiny.
The game's aesthetic and controls positively reinforce momentum and speed, but the levels (outside of the self playing loopy parts) punish speed and reward caution.
I played these games as a kid like many people did, and I understand nostalgia, but these games simply don't hold up under scrutiny.
ViewtifulJC
Banned
"sonic is too easy to be a good platformer"
"super mario world is great"
????????????????????????????????????
"super mario world is great"
????????????????????????????????????
If "difficulty in clearing a stage" is the most important metric to judge a platformer, Kirby games must be total irredeemable shit!
well in Mario all you really do is jump too, same with Kirby.
The "auto-pilot" sections you keep to referring to aren't the whole game. You know this, but you're being purposely obtuse. they have always been reward for the platforming sections before them. I'm not commenting on Sonic Mania because this conversation is about the 90s games and specifically Sonic 1. to act like the whole level is just one continuous easy loop where you hold right..yeah, that may be true for Sonic Advance 2, but it has never been the case for any of the original Genesis/MD games.
The "auto-pilot" sections you keep to referring to aren't the whole game. You know this, but you're being purposely obtuse. they have always been reward for the platforming sections before them. I'm not commenting on Sonic Mania because this conversation is about the 90s games and specifically Sonic 1. to act like the whole level is just one continuous easy loop where you hold right..yeah, that may be true for Sonic Advance 2, but it has never been the case for any of the original Genesis/MD games.
I have never felt it punished me for speed. I still play these games as an adult. It's an alternative platformer that doesn't follow the exact rules of Mario. Why is any of that a problem though? Why is that considered bad?
You want a game that punishes you for speed that's Sonic CD. Peel out is wasted on that game as no level has enough room for your speed and much of a level is more vertical than it is horizontal like most western PC platformers of the time.
You want a game that punishes you for speed that's Sonic CD. Peel out is wasted on that game as no level has enough room for your speed and much of a level is more vertical than it is horizontal like most western PC platformers of the time.
Bilollipop
Member
Yes it looks flashy, but that's part of the appeal. The flashy section gives way in about 5 seconds to open you up to multiple paths that trial and error leads you to better times and a better score.
Any section in a Sonic game that's like that has literally one purpose, to launch you into an area that then leads to multiple paths.
In that Mania gif you posted, you can see that at the end. I'm willing to bet that bouncing carefully on the bumpers leads to the upper/better path, but it's easy to fall off them and continue forward. There was even an opening to the left, maybe that leads to a different path, or a shield/extra life monitor.
You already mentioned that the game probably isn't for you, and I hold nothing against you for that or this thread, it's just that there's been a silly amount of "Hey Sonic is bad and always has been, let's make a thread weekly about it."
ViewtifulJC
Banned
super mario world is a door/key hunt across completely unchallenging levels with two good songs, a non-aesthetic visual aesthetic, slippery controls, and powers the game developers never ask you to get competent with.
but that game is the sacred cow and sonic was never good
?????????????
but that game is the sacred cow and sonic was never good
?????????????
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
All these gifs of Sonic zipping through loop-de-loops just make me want to play it. It looks fun.
I mean, what on earth could be fun about whizzing through slides and chutes, jumping between them, stylishly stomping enemies and leaping past spikes in a way that doesn't have you break momentum.......?
The answer is everything. It's a digital playground.
There might be issues with momentum-stopping and fundamental reward here and there (Sonic CD, I'm looking at you), but to question the base premise of Sonic is odd to me. Maybe you don't have fun guiding an anthropomorphic marble zipping through a rube goldberg machine, but how can you not see that there's something fundamentally amusing about it for many people?
I mean, what on earth could be fun about whizzing through slides and chutes, jumping between them, stylishly stomping enemies and leaping past spikes in a way that doesn't have you break momentum.......?
The answer is everything. It's a digital playground.
There might be issues with momentum-stopping and fundamental reward here and there (Sonic CD, I'm looking at you), but to question the base premise of Sonic is odd to me. Maybe you don't have fun guiding an anthropomorphic marble zipping through a rube goldberg machine, but how can you not see that there's something fundamentally amusing about it for many people?
Lupin the Third
Member
Play the Master System Sonic 1 instead.
This is the only Sonic I have on VC so I've spent a good amount of time on it. There's still some design garbage. I seem to remember one boss where, if you die, the leadup to him has no rings. So after that first loss, it's one hit death every time. And if it's the same boss, I seem to remember it being hard to hit or positioning itself such that you can easily take damage, or something....it was a mess. I think I gave up around there. (Bridge Zone boss, maybe?)
CrispyBoar
Banned
I feel the same way, as Green Hill Zone & Star Light Zone are the only memorable zones in the game.
Otherwise, no reason to play Sonic 1 over the others.