Her speech was a little meh but look out for Kirsten Gillibrand in the future too! She's great!
The Democratic National Convention OT |2016|: The One With the Policy
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neurosisxeno
Member
Her speech was really mediocre. She still has a lot of potential (Booker/Gillibrand 2024?) for the future.
I didn't actually know that this happened. God damn, Bernie Sanders is the truest hero of the Democrats right now.
Lys Skygge
Member
The BoBs on my Facebook are so fucking delusional. I keep seeing things like "Don't worry Bernie! We'll continue the fight for you! #NeverHilary #ImWithBernie #BernieOrBust #voteforJillStien"
Joseph Kennedy can be somebody to look out for further down the line, like 15-20 years.
It doesn't ring hollow if you are the child of parents who went through and overcame marital problems. Or if you ever find yourself in that position.
Aaronology
Member
I am as well, but that doesn't answer the question I asked you. What do you want to happen this November?
You Are Viewtiful
Member
The genuineness of her opposition to the Colombia trade deal was in question back in 2008 for reasons already stated (people very close to her supported it). The emails in question that reveal her eventual support were not public communication but were released as part of a foia request. I don't think she was lobbying congressmen in 2011 under duress even if it was an Obama administration policy position. It wouldn't be the first time she did a 180 on an issue becuase the "context" was right for it to be expedient.
Neither Trump nor HRC.
Brawly Likes to Brawl
Member
I'm very curious to see how many of the busters will show up at the polls during the next midterms
Fuck Tulsi Gabbard. She was constantly on Fox News trashing Obama and has said shady shit about Muslims.
SneakersSO
Member
Same here. Won't be voting for either of them. Jill Stein got my vote, and i'm a lifelong democrat. Well, former democrat - i'll be withdrawing from the party on my voter registration as soon as I am able to.
Lys Skygge
Member
I had to temporarily unfollow some of my Facebook friends. It's really hard not to call them out on their bullshit. Hopefully after a week or two of grieving, they'll come around to Hillary. Its what Bernie wants.
neurosisxeno
Member
Those e-mails that were from the FOIA request were from when she was SoS. She was doing the Administrations bidding, and the President can't unilaterally accept Trade Deals, Congress has to sign them into law. You're being willfully ignorant. She has said when she wasn't SoS--consistently--that she didn't support it. The only times she did support it was when she was working as SoS. How is this confounding you so?
She was also against Marriage Equality as recently as like 2014. I wouldn't say "Fuck Tulsi Gabbard", but beyond her service record and support for Sanders she isn't the one you really want leading a progressive political revolution.
And of course the media is focusing on them. Funny, I don't remember the media paying too much attention to the dissenters at the GOP Convention last week.
EatinOlives
Member
I don't know that completely ignoring Bernie's very obvious unity gestures today and yesterday, if not outright antagonizing him for it, can qualify as "grieving".
I can understand a certain state of shock and some internal processing happening after something you've devoted countless hours of your time, your money, and your effort has not come to pass. But it's not like the writing hasn't been on the wall for weeks (if not months), and it's not like Bernie didn't already explicitly endorse her prior to the convention. It's not grief so much as it is lashing out hatred at anything and anyone. They've ceased to have any kind of message or demands.
They didn't make nearly as much a fuss. They're still bringing up the Cruz thing and the fact that most of the big names in the republican party weren't there.
The thing is, I feel a lot of Bernie supporters are independently minded.
Bernie is like 74 years old, he has been playing the long game his entire life and probably understands the need to be pragmatic and disciplined despite all. Of course, a lot of his supporters are younger and more thirsty for for political change, not by some malicious intent mind you but because of youth idealism, which in itself is admirable. I would encourage a change of rhetoric to turn them around- instead of "supporting" Clinton, they should vote for Clinton- vote against Trump, I don't equate "support" and "voting" even though I have long held the belief a vote IS an endorsement.
But at the very very least, don't fucking vote Trump. I can understand not voting/third party, but going from Bernie to Trump makes no sense. If you are going from Bernie to Trump, its not Bernie who is the traitor, its you.
Chaos2Frozen
Member
They had plenty of months to grieve already though...
I'm not confounded. I don't believe she was doing it under duress because her job required it. I think it was her actual position given the totality of the circumstances dating back from 2008 when her chief campaign strategist was meeting with Colombia's ambassador to obtain congressional support for the deal and her husband Bill also supported it.
That is my credibility determination. I don't *have* to believe her 2008 pronouncements and I think there are reasons not to.
Lys Skygge
Member
I'm reading through some comments on Facebook with Hillary voters trying to sway BoBs. I hate to see people refer to Hillary as "the lesser of two evils". Its definitely not going to help win over supporters. Hillary is honestly a pretty amazing candidate. After spending months learning about her, and listening to the amazing speeches throughout the DNC, and Bills great anecdotes tonight has me incredibly excited to vote for her.
It's not about voting for the lesser of two evils. It's about voting good over evil.
It's not about voting for the lesser of two evils. It's about voting good over evil.
It's so strange that despite the incredible scrutiny and hatred Barack and Michelle Obama faced over the stupidest things during his first term, they are both going out with some really high favorability rankings. Especially Michelle. Everyone loves her now. There's a reason her speech went viral.
I love Hillary and would be voting for her no matter what but she is so damn lucky to have people like that rooting for her and helping her campaign. If anyone is going to help sell her to other people outside the Democrat base (and aside from Bernie's stans), it is them.
I love Hillary and would be voting for her no matter what but she is so damn lucky to have people like that rooting for her and helping her campaign. If anyone is going to help sell her to other people outside the Democrat base (and aside from Bernie's stans), it is them.
To be clear, this is more wishful thinking and mild projection and not generally reflective of her views. There are some general platitudes about it not meeting her "gold standard", and some caveats about free trade and globalization in general, but nothing on the record (as far as I'm aware) about changing specific parts of it, revising it, or much of anything else. Just that it doesn't meet her standards in the vaguest sense, and some desire to implement domestic measures that could offset the negative externalities of the TPP. Also, you can't just revise it without having to renegotiate the thing with the other parties, and she's made no indication of wanting to do that.
Is it complicated? Sure, but she's a capable person, an alleged policy wonk, it's done and can be read (especially if you have a staff), and it's well within her ballpark to understand it. She was, after all, plugging it as SoS.
Moreover, for someone who's perpetually eyeing her base, she should be well versed to discuss it in depth, given the hostility to the deal among a significant portion of the Democratic electorate. Instead, she largely ignores the issue, and for plenty of likely reasons: not to alienate corporate donors, to avoid reminding Sanders voters and progressive voters about her flip flop and tepid opposition on it, not to be seen campaigning against a key initiative of the current administration, and because the media literally almost never raises the issue. She can just toss out generalities in the interim, and hope it gets passed in the lame duck session, as is likely, and wash her hands of the whole affair. Ditto TTIP by and large.
Also, this:
Politifact said:
BigJonsson
Member
Whoa
Jerry Springer on CNN
Jerry Springer on CNN
Bill has a fearsome power. Expect a Police Academy reboot because of that speech.
Jerry Jerry Jerry Jerry Jerry Jerry Jerry Jerry Jerry Jerry Jerry Jerry Jerry Jerry Jerry Jerry Jerry Jerry Jerry Jerry Jerry Jerry Jerry Jerry Jerry Jerry Jerry Jerry Jerry Jerry Jerry Jerry Jerry Jerry Jerry Jerry Jerry Jerry Jerry Jerry Jerry Jerry Jerry Jerry Jerry Jerry Jerry Jerry
It would actually be a good idea to lay out the reasons to vote for HRC without reference to fear of a Trump presidency.
Not voting or voting third party if you want some of the change Bernie was suggesting is still self defeating. With Hillary you will get some of t guaranteed. With trump you will get none of it.
It's not even about voting the lesser of two evils. It's about voting in the types of policies you want to shape the country. Getting 50% of what you want even is better than getting zero
If there was a reasonable opposing candidate I'd understand this thought. Since there is not, still proceeding to waste your vote just means you will never ever be the reason for any type of change, and for that we will need to rely on other more pragmatic voters that know that change doesn't come with one mere election (like oppressed people have known since forever)
You have really not made a good case that this is worth doing.
I know.
But if it isn't worth doing, isn't the situation a bit like being forced to drink poison because you don't want to get shot.
Probably it's not quite that bad but you get the picture.
distantmantra
Member
Super heated on CNN right now. Damn.
Jerry springer literally stepped up and called it his show lol.
One, I don't even know what that means.
Two, that argument has been made over and over and over on this very message board, never mind across the internet when it's only a simple Google search away. This comes up every time people get into arguments with Busters - "Maybe you should list the reasons to vote for her instead of trying to guilt/fear-monger me into it!". So someone posts the arguments. For the thousandth time. And then it's immediately ignored and we go back to the start in another thread.
I was just making a point. I have already formed by opinion of HRC.
Reasons to vote for HRC:
1) She's to the left of Obama on pretty much every domestic policy area.
2) She's highly competent and good at forging relationships and getting shit done.
3) She will not repeal Obamacare or allow restrictions to LGBT rights or the rights of women to reproductive healthcare, all of which are generic Republican policy positions.
3) During her first term she will likely fill the Supreme Court with two, possibly three, justices, cementing a progressive liberal majority on SCOTUS for at least twenty years, contributing to decades worth of judicial precedent towards the continual expansion of rights and freedoms towards currently oppressed minorities.
Are those enough reasons for you?
Then that post makes no sense. People are already doing that and have been doing that.
Rollo Tomasi
Member
Watching the DNC these last couple nights has given me hope for this election but the minute I load up Facebook and see the top rated comments on some of these articles...its a shitshow. Especially on CNNs stuff. Ugh. The worst part is half of them are just copy paste jobs and full of the usual buzzwords.
A former Hillary delegate that was on CNN said it took her a month to get over the loss of the nomination to Obama back in 2008. I wonder if that is even a possibility for some of the Bernie supporters I see on FB with this election.
A former Hillary delegate that was on CNN said it took her a month to get over the loss of the nomination to Obama back in 2008. I wonder if that is even a possibility for some of the Bernie supporters I see on FB with this election.
I would add another as someone whose feelings towards HRC range from mild dislike to neutral: The tokenism argument, Not that I liked it as an argument against Bernie during the primaries, but if it has to be between Trump and Clinton, having a female president is definitely a plus. Don't have any kids, but if I did, I would like a daughter (and son, now that I think about it) to grow up in a world knowing the most powerful position in the world was once occupied by a female.
*accuses other people of being cultlike when it comes to Clinton*
*Asks for people to post reasons to like clinton after they have already done so*
*Goes on to say that they have an unshakable opinion on her*
I mean, I hope you realize that you've acted ridiculous in this thread.
November is a long way off. Trump will continue doing and saying awful shit, and if over 3 months of exposure to that isn't enough to convince Busters then nothing will - and frankly they were never true supporters of what Bernie was trying to accomplish in the first place.
Lys Skygge
Member
I really hope this is the case. Its so crazy to see so much negativity on social media despite the DNC being overwhelmingly positive. The only place that seems genuinely excited about the DNC is GAF.
echoshifting
Banned
I would say about a third of the Berners on my facebook feed have gone off the reservation, voting for this or that third party candidate or refusing to vote. The rest have fallen in line...this seems to match up pretty well with the polling.
I don't expect these people to come around. They are defiant.
By and large, these are better reasons to vote for certain Democratic legislative candidates than anything. There is a legislative branch, after all.
Umm no. You'd have to be blind to fail to notice that I don't have the highest opinion of HRC. I don't think finally stating the obvious means "I'm acting ridiculous".
I mean, unless you expect the legislative branch to turn down supreme court nominees for four years, you kinda need a democratic president for that.
If you say so. Excuse me while I try to get my eyes unglued from the ceiling.
Spiritreaver
Member
It sucks yeah, but there's a few large subreddits that tend to support HRC. Also there wasn't a single post on my FB today that wasn't for Hillary. Though it's not fair as 95% of my 4500+ FB friends are gay.
The only guy who didn't like Hillary said he was still voting for her for all her progressive policies and for SCOTUS.
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