Replaying Sonic the Hedgehog reveals it was kind of bad

Cindi Mayweather said:
How is this satisfying exactly?

TtIlNkQeHlUVa.gif


It's a linear path. if you spin, you go through gap. Then you hit the spring. Spin and you gain speed and momentum. Then you jump on another spring.

There's nothing involved about this. It just looks flashy.

This summary of Sonic's gameplay is a perfect description of that gif.
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I don't like the reductionist argument in gaming. You can make any game sound bad if you do that.

Symphony of the Night is just a series of linear paths that cross over. You just hit enemies until they die with weapons that all do damage (so it doesn't matter which) and move on to the next one. If you get hit you lose health and can die. There's nothing involved about dodging attacks, it just looks flashy.
 
I dunno if I'd go as far as saying Sonic 1 is a bad game, but I was always of the opinion that it was kinda weak and that Sonic 3 and Knuckles were waaaay better (didn't really play much of 2, but I hear it's a much better game than 1 as well).

edit: Oh I see you played 2 and didn't like it. Maybe 3 and Knuckles might be different?
 
Cindi Mayweather said:
So people think there's only two great Sonic games? (Sonic 2 and S3&K)
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Sonic 2
Sonic 3 & Knuckles
Sonic Rush
Sonic Colours
Sonic Generations

So five goat games, but there are also a lot more very good games (Sonic Adventure 2, Advance 1-3, Rush 2 & 3, Heroes, 1 CD). 1 is considerably weaker than 2 & 3 and it certainly is too slow.
 
Cindi Mayweather said:
Sure is a great platformer.
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It's a good platformer because controlling Sonic and moving with him is fun.

This seems to be a point that you either willfully or naively misunderstand.

The level design in Mario gives you a highly tuned set of obstacles and terrain that you are meant to avoid and maneuver around with Mario's relatively limited (but tight and efficient) movement capabilities. The level design in Sonic provides an environment with which Sonic can move around relatively freely and rewards players for experimenting with Sonic's various movement options with completely different paths, some of them being designed shortcuts. This is a very fundamental difference in the way these games are designed.

And because of this design methodology there's a great deal of replayability once you gain mastery over Sonic's movement, depending on the stage of course. Sometimes you'll take the obvious straightforward path, sometimes you'll challenge yourself to go high, sometimes you'll let yourself go low. Sometimes the level will be mostly linear, but in those cases the level themselves usually slow themselves down to become more of a traditional platforming challenge, like Marble Zone or Labyrinth.

It's a digital playground as stated before. You might as well complain that children are wasting their time going down the slide over and over or playing on the swings or playing around on the jungle gym because gosh, what's the point of doing all that? It's not like those stupid naive children are actually working towards a concrete goal, why do they even bother?
 
jman2050 said:
It's a good platformer because controlling Sonic and moving with him is fun.

This seems to be a point that you either willfully or naively misunderstand.

The level design in Mario gives you a highly tuned set of obstacles and terrain that you are meant to avoid and maneuver around with Mario's relatively limited (but tight and efficient) movement capabilities. The level design in Sonic provides an environment with which Sonic can move around relatively freely and rewards players for experimenting with Sonic's various movement options with completely different paths, some of them being designed shortcuts. This is a very fundamental difference in the way these games are designed.

And because of this design methodology there's a great deal of replayability once you gain mastery over Sonic's movement, depending on the stage of course. Sometimes you'll take the obvious straightforward path, sometimes you'll challenge yourself to go high, sometimes you'll let yourself go low. Sometimes the level will be mostly linear, but in those cases the level themselves usually slow themselves down to become more of a traditional platforming challenge, like Marble Zone or Labyrinth.

It's a digital playground as stated before. You might as well complain that children are wasting their time going down the slide over and over or playing on the swings or playing around on the jungle gym because gosh, what's the point of doing all that? It's not like those stupid naive children are actually working towards a concrete goal, why do they even bother?
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I just think games should offer more than something than controlling a character being fun. Comparing Sonic to kids getting on a slide over and over isn't really a good argument for its case.
 
Cindi Mayweather said:
I just think games should offer more than something than controlling a character being fun.
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Well Sonic games do that have discrete levels with unique themes, a straightforward progression system, multiple characters with unique abilities in later games, level gimmicks designed for both augmenting movement and for spectacle, boss fights, collectibles in the form of rings, an optional secondary progression system that demands more of the player (chaos emeralds), a hidden hard-to-get powerup that provides a different play experience (Super Sonic), a scoring system, the ability to fail via getting hurt and even dying, and the ability to 'finish' it, so I'd say these games provide a pretty complete package even beyond the fundamental core concept of having fun controlling Sonic.

So there's that.

Comparing Sonic to kids getting on a slide over and over isn't really a good argument for its case.
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Why not? Playing games are fundamentally about having fun so the analogy holds perfectly since the idea of age-appropriateness isn't relevant to the point. But if more "mature" examples are necessary, what about skateboarding? Or Parkour? Or heck, even swimming? Two guys playing catch in their backyard just because they can?
 
Sonic has always been a contradiction of itself.

You go slow, you defeat the purpose of the game and character.

You go fast and the level is either unplayable or they have you hold right to win.
 
I never understand this series opposed to something like Mario.

What, am I supposed to just blindly run until I run into an enemy? It's too fast you can't play like this. Not fun or skillz anyway.
 
Bloody hell people, that's the point of the games. You start slow to learn the level, which is the best path to take, where the enemies are, etc, THEN you can put that knowledge to use and GO FAST through the level, see if you can get the best score (Which is Time and Ring Dependant) so the basic aim of the game is to get through a level, without being hit, and collect the most rings in the quickest time possible.

How are so many people here failing to grasp that?
 
spazchicken said:
Sonic has always been a contradiction of itself.

You go slow, you defeat the purpose of the game and character.

You go fast and the level is either unplayable or they have you hold right to win.
Click to expand...
On the contrary, with quick reaction times and a good grasp of the gameplay mechanics it's quite possible to beat each level flawlessly. Of course, the important thing that anyone new to Sonic games must understand first is that blinding racing through levels never works. It's only through persistence that players develop the level of skill necessary to play Sonic games at their highest speed.
 
Cindi Mayweather said:
How is this satisfying exactly?

TtIlNkQeHlUVa.gif


It's a linear path. if you spin, you go through gap. Then you hit the spring. Spin and you gain speed and momentum. Then you jump on another spring.

There's nothing involved about this. It just looks flashy.

This summary of Sonic's gameplay is a perfect description of that gif.
Click to expand...
...because that is not automatic. When you nail that section in that way, it feels fantastic.

What, am I supposed to just blindly run until I run into an enemy? It's too fast you can't play like this. Not fun or skillz anyway.
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No, you're supposed to react to the threat.

I'd love to see you play a Cave shooter "What, am I supposed to just fly until I run into a million bullets?"
 
Cindi Mayweather said:
I just think games should offer more than something than controlling a character being fun. Comparing Sonic to kids getting on a slide over and over isn't really a good argument for its case.
Click to expand...

You can enjoy just going down the slide.

You can be pushed down the slide.

You can push yourself down the slide.

You can go down the slide on your belly.

You can go down the slide backwards.

You can go down the slide with someone right behind you.

You can send something else down the slide.

You can try running up the slide.

And when you finally tire of the slide, there are other slides that are taller, or wider, or curved, or have water running down them, all of which provide the same sort of fun but in a way that makes the whole experience new again, so the core joy of the slide stays alive so long as someone can keep coming up with new slides.

The playground also has monkey bars. You get better at monkey bars until you can get all the way across them, and at that point all that's left is doing it again, but even better. They're fun in their own way, but not as flexible.

You sound like a monkey bars person.
 
spazchicken said:
Sonic has always been a contradiction of itself.

You go slow, you defeat the purpose of the game and character.

You go fast and the level is either unplayable or they have you hold right to win.
Click to expand...

Don't get hung up on going fast or going slow or whatever.

Just go.

Just.

Go.
 
I don't think Sonic 1 is bad but I don't think it embraces it's best moments as much as its sequels.

As a kid, Sonic 1 was actually the first game I ever played or owned, but I never once went back to it after getting Sonic 2. Still enjoyed it, but it was too hard for me to beat. I often just played Green Hill over and over, because I wouldn't always make it through Marble Hill and I preferred the big loops and speed sections in Green Hill.

On Sonic's sequels, all of the levels have these 'green hill' elements. While stages do get progressively more difficult, and underwater stages and segments are always a chore (imo) the levels tend to have a good focus on speed and many of the elements that made me love Green Hill in the first game.

I still like Sonic 1 though, I think despite it not being as good of a game as its sequels, it wasn't a bad game, and it still holds up relatively well. If it were the only Sonic game ever released, I'd still play it.
 
Sciz said:
The playground also has monkey bars. You get better at monkey bars until you can get all the way across them, and at that point all that's left is doing it again, but even better. They're fun in their own way, but not as flexible.

You sound like a monkey bars person.
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I don't know, you had those freaky kids sometimes that could swing their feet up and through the monkey bars, contort themselves in all sorts of weird ways, lay on top of the bars or even walk over them.

That must be what speedrunning feels like.
 
jman2050 said:
I don't know, you had those freaky kids sometimes that could swing their feet up and through the monkey bars, contort themselves in all sorts of weird ways, lay on top of the bars or even walk over them.

That must be what speedrunning feels like.
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I remember those kids. I couldn't even do a pull up and I'm wondering how they even did that.
 
jman2050 said:
I don't know, you had those freaky kids sometimes that could swing their feet up and through the monkey bars, contort themselves in all sorts of weird ways, lay on top of the bars or even walk over them.

That must be what speedrunning feels like.
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They're the ones who go on to have successful Twitch careers or get hired for the Mario Club.
 
dark10x said:
...because that is not automatic. When you nail that section in that way, it feels fantastic.
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This. Is like landing a good combo. The game gives you the mechanics, you perform it.

spazchicken said:
Sonic has always been a contradiction of itself.

You go slow, you defeat the purpose of the game and character.

You go fast and the level is either unplayable or they have you hold right to win.
Click to expand...

The purpose of the game was never going fast. It's only one of the gameplay mechanics.


It's lovely how many of you are totally missing the point.
 
dark10x said:
...because that is not automatic. When you nail that section in that way, it feels fantastic.


No, you're supposed to react to the threat.

I'd love to see you play a Cave shooter "What, am I supposed to just fly until I run into a million bullets?"
Click to expand...

It's not automatic, and I never said it was, but I don't see how it's great to pull off either. You got to the higher section of the level. It's not a big accomplishment.

When I think of satisfying game moments, I think of something else, like beating Quick Man's stage without flash stopper or get a Jet rank in Jet Set.

I can understand if you find that satisfying in the way it looks. I love how Mario looks when he gets all showy when he flies in the air in Mario Galaxy. But I'm not seeing what's good about that gif. It just looks like standard Sonic to me: spin to gain speed, use momentum to get to a high place.

And yes, I was a monkey bar kid. That, and swings.
 
Sonic 1 on the Master System was the first game I ever beat on my own.

I'll never forget the sensation when I finally bust Robotniks glass and chased him off, the sound of the glass breaking actually made me jump I was that tense. The sheer elation, the joy.

I played that game so many times, same with all my Master System games as I only had a few. I memorised every damn bit. Alex Kidd in Miracle world was another one.
 
bosseye said:
Sonic 1 on the Master System was the first game I ever beat on my own.

I'll never forget the sensation when I finally bust Robotniks glass and chased him off, the sound of the glass breaking actually made me jump I was that tense. The sheer elation, the joy.

I played that game so many times, same with all my Master System games as I only had a few. I memorised every damn bit. Alex Kidd in Miracle world was another one.
Click to expand...

Likewise, I played the hell out of Sonic and Tails on my Game Gear (aka Sonic Chaos). Great game.
 
I grew up with an NES and SNES in my house and I was always into Mario, obviously. When I went to my cousin's house and played Sonic, I thought it was garbage. It wasn't a console fanboy thing either, since I liked other Mega Drive games he showed me.

I've tried to give the MD Sonics multiple chances since then and they've never clicked. It's my firm belief Sonic was never good. Don't @ me.
 
Krabboss said:
I grew up with an NES and SNES in my house and I was always into Mario, obviously. When I went to my cousin's house and played Sonic, I thought it was garbage. It wasn't a console fanboy thing either, since I liked other Mega Drive games he showed me.

I've tried to give the MD Sonics multiple chances since then and they've never clicked. It's my firm belief Sonic was never good. Don't @ me.
Click to expand...

@ing you ;)

When it comes to things I don't get, I try not to poo-poo them too much. Like, I don't 'get' first person shooters, but I don't think they're bad. Obviously there must be something of merit there as millions of people enjoy playing them. They just don't mesh with my personal tastes. And that's OK. Different strokes and all.
 
Cindi Mayweather said:
It's not automatic, and I never said it was, but I don't see how it's great to pull off either. You got to the higher section of the level. It's not a big accomplishment.

When I think of satisfying game moments, I think of something else, like beating Quick Man's stage without flash stopper or get a Jet rank in Jet Set.

I can understand if you find that satisfying in the way it looks. I love how Mario looks when he gets all showy when he flies in the air in Mario Galaxy. But I'm not seeing what's good about that gif. It just looks like standard Sonic to me: spin to gain speed, use momentum to get to a high place.

And yes, I was a monkey bar kid. That, and swings.
Click to expand...
"A big accomplishment"? It's not about that, it's about the feeling of satisfaction you get when chaining that type of play together across an entire level. Being able to move through each stage effortlessly while avoiding hazards and taking the fastest route. It's not about the end result, rather, the feeling you get while performing those actions.

When combined with the eye catching visuals and excellent upbeat music, it just FEELS great. That's really all there is to it.
 
Aaron Strife said:
Does anyone else think it's weird that these threads seem to pop up almost weekly (if not daily) whereas someone making a thread about the Mario NES trilogy sucking would be rightly shat on?
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Nintendo held the gaming industry with an iron grip in their closed ecosystem. Their games had to be the best even if I knew this wasnt always the case.
Sega had arcade games and ports to other systems, so it was easier to draw comparisons. They had to compete with the best arcade and game developers and they mostly succeeded.
 
Man.

I know it's just an opinion, but it kinda bums me out seeing so many people saying Sonic CD sucks. It's such an intricate, thoughtful, carefully designed game. And because people don't want to understand it, they say it's a romhacky mess or some similar dismissal.

There's a guy earlier in the thread talking about how it throws obstacles in your way to stop your forward momentum, and in any other Sonic game I could see that as a criticism, but in CD that's the whole point, the time travel is a reward for getting the lay of the land and applying your skill and knowledge and exploration and precision and planning and aglglglglg it's too good.

And if you know how to play CD but still don't like it, then fine, but in so many threads so many people clearly don't know, and worse yet, aren't interested in finding out.
 
Lord British said:
Man.

I know it's just an opinion, but it kinda bums me out seeing so many people saying Sonic CD sucks. It's such an intricate, thoughtful, carefully designed game. And because people don't want to understand it, they say it's a romhacky mess or some similar dismissal.

There's a guy earlier in the thread talking about how it throws obstacles in your way to stop your forward momentum, and in any other Sonic game I could see that as a criticism, but in CD that's the whole point, the time travel is a reward for getting the lay of the land and applying your skill and knowledge and exploration and precision and planning and aglglglglg it's too good.

And if you know how to play CD but still don't like it, then fine, but in so many threads so many people clearly don't know, and worse yet, aren't interested in finding out.
Click to expand...

It's one of my favorite games ever. It doesn't really bother me that people shit on it, honestly. As an old Sega fan, I'm used to being in the minority.
 
spazchicken said:
Sonic has always been a contradiction of itself.

You go slow, you defeat the purpose of the game and character.

You go fast and the level is either unplayable or they have you hold right to win.
Click to expand...
Have you ever thought about maybe going at high speed and reacting to sudden hazards is the intended and best way of enjoying Sonic games? What kind of argument is this? Either I play safe and it isn't so joyful, or I play risky, but I have no reflexes and thus it's unplayable?
 
Cindi Mayweather said:
It's not automatic, and I never said it was, but I don't see how it's great to pull off either. You got to the higher section of the level. It's not a big accomplishment.

When I think of satisfying game moments, I think of something else, like beating Quick Man's stage without flash stopper or get a Jet rank in Jet Set.
Click to expand...
Then maybe the newer Sonic games, starting from Adventure 2, are better for you, because they actually give you a grade at the end of a level. The best grade typically is associated with a consistently good performance.

I can understand if you find that satisfying in the way it looks. I love how Mario looks when he gets all showy when he flies in the air in Mario Galaxy. But I'm not seeing what's good about that gif. It just looks like standard Sonic to me: spin to gain speed, use momentum to get to a high place.
Click to expand...
To me, it is not the way it looks, it is the fact that you nail a sequence of very tight and difficult steps required to have a certain quality of your run. It's like the beauty of a well executed combo in Bayonetta or a fighting game. There is joy to be had in the act of playing, not just in the formal outcome. As someone not really enjoying achievements, I'd even say "more so".
 
Lord British said:
Man.

I know it's just an opinion, but it kinda bums me out seeing so many people saying Sonic CD sucks. It's such an intricate, thoughtful, carefully designed game. And because people don't want to understand it, they say it's a romhacky mess or some similar dismissal.

There's a guy earlier in the thread talking about how it throws obstacles in your way to stop your forward momentum, and in any other Sonic game I could see that as a criticism, but in CD that's the whole point, the time travel is a reward for getting the lay of the land and applying your skill and knowledge and exploration and precision and planning and aglglglglg it's too good.

And if you know how to play CD but still don't like it, then fine, but in so many threads so many people clearly don't know, and worse yet, aren't interested in finding out.
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My fuckin man. Sonic Cd is meant to be learned and replayed. That's how it went from a good Sonic to the GOAT for me.
 
I enjoyed the first one a lot, but I never really rated any after that. They looked a bit nicer, the Dreamcast one was fun, but in general I never really rated the series.
 
So "you can't see anything ahead because you're going so fast" is the new "you just hold right to beat the stage".

People have been playing Sonic wrong - or not playing it at all- for the last 25 years
 
Lord British said:
Man.

I know it's just an opinion, but it kinda bums me out seeing so many people saying Sonic CD sucks. It's such an intricate, thoughtful, carefully designed game. And because people don't want to understand it, they say it's a romhacky mess or some similar dismissal
Click to expand...
I actually used to feel that way, to a degree, but a few years ago, it finally clicked. It's a different style of game in many ways, but I think it's very well made and extremely enjoyable. Definitely one of my favorites now.

I do, however, think that Knuckles Chaotix is a romhacky mess. It's a beautiful game with a great soundtrack and some neat ideas but the level design is a disaster. I've tried so many times to understand it but it just doesn't work for me.
 
Chao said:
So "you can't see anything ahead because you're going so fast" is the new "you just hold right to beat the stage".
Click to expand...

Yep.

And the kicker is, the Sonic games either naturally slow you down prior to obstacles, or put you in positions where you should already have developed the skill to avoid them.

Take Green Hill from the original game - there are upward slopes before the bridges with the fish enemies (allowing you to see what's coming, and slow down a little), and rocks in front of the spike traps (so you can't just power into them), for example. The design is thoughtful and clever.

Once you get further into the game you should have a decent enough grasp of the momentum and mechanics so when they take the gloves off a little that ought not to be a problem.

Once you get to say Sonic Advance 2, you start getting the sloppier design and speed boosters firing you into bottomless pits out of nowhere. But the Mega Drive games are careful and thoughtful.
 
Chao said:
So "you can't see anything ahead because you're going so fast" is the new "you just hold right to beat the stage".

People have been playing Sonic wrong - or not playing it at all- for the last 25 years
Click to expand...

INO People thay says this wants Sonic games to play like exact copies of Mario, and then complain that it's a bad platformer game because of it.
 
The only thing good about Sonic 1 WAS Green Hill Zone, it was the best level they made as a first impression to the player and to get the point of what Sonic is about across. But after that, it was like they were making a completely different game. To think that it was gonna be much worse with Labyrinth Zone originally being the SECOND ZONE rather than Marble Zone...

Sonic 2 fares much better, cannot say much about S3&K because I didn't get very far in it. Also, I think Sonic CD is pretty good despite having a very different approach to level design.
 
Cindi Mayweather said:
How is this satisfying exactly?

TtIlNkQeHlUVa.gif


It's a linear path. if you spin, you go through gap. Then you hit the spring. Spin and you gain speed and momentum. Then you jump on another spring.

There's nothing involved about this. It just looks flashy.

This summary of Sonic's gameplay is a perfect description of that gif.
Click to expand...

What is exactly satisfying about jumping from block to block? What is satisfying about perfectly chaining attacks together in a game? I enjoy the speed and quick reflexes that are required from Sonic, even levels just as Chemical Planet rewards you with blazing speed but without reacting to where the path takes you you could easily miss extra lives or faster routes.

Besides unless you build the sufficient momentum and unless you jump to the red spring at the right time you will be unable to access the higher platform that leads you to the higher path. That to me is excellent design and makes use of Sonic's core gameplay.

This stage also follows Labyrinth Zone so I don't see anything wrong with it being faster paced.
 
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