It's more pathetic when a general joke, not referring to you in particular, it's took too seriously at the point to attack me with the "paranoia" argument.
Replaying Sonic the Hedgehog reveals it was kind of bad
- Thread starter Cindi Mayweather
- Start date
It's more pathetic when a general joke, not referring to you in particular, it's took too seriously at the point to attack me with the "paranoia" argument.
eh, to be fair you said
that reads more like "people that hate sushi didn't even taste the fish on top the rice". That's a pretentious statement.
I can understand someone not liking Sonic games, of course I do! Everyone has their tastes and there's not game made for every one of them.
What I cannot understand is someone coming here and say "hey you know, Sonic games were never good. Their popularity and good reputations comes from thin air because almost everyone that liked it didn't even finish it because look how bad it is!"
I don't feel attacked or anything, and I don't think anyone attacked you, the Sega was never good post was a joke.. But I would tell you the same if it was another game, like for example, Tomb Raider or Resident Evil, because "tank controls", or even Mario Bros 1.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
"No one else says this about other classic games!"
My conspiracy and paranoia thing is a joke in itself on the hilarious "why do people only say this about Sonic and Sega games?!?!" in this thread. Your post was just convenient because it was one of the latest ones. I don't actually think there's a conspiracy or actual paranoia but I do find the reactions to people having different opinions about Sonic to be extremely funny. It's almost as if people really think there's a conspiracy against Sega and Sonic. Nintendo have bought posters on neogaf and YouTube to bad mouth Sonic!
You know I find all of it all the more funny because I know so many old Sega heads who think Sonic fucking blows, which makes the posts like "people are going to start saying Sega was never good eventually!" posts even funnier.
My conspiracy and paranoia thing is a joke in itself on the hilarious "why do people only say this about Sonic and Sega games?!?!" in this thread. Your post was just convenient because it was one of the latest ones. I don't actually think there's a conspiracy or actual paranoia but I do find the reactions to people having different opinions about Sonic to be extremely funny. It's almost as if people really think there's a conspiracy against Sega and Sonic. Nintendo have bought posters on neogaf and YouTube to bad mouth Sonic!
You know I find all of it all the more funny because I know so many old Sega heads who think Sonic fucking blows, which makes the posts like "people are going to start saying Sega was never good eventually!" posts even funnier.
But I didn't say this, or atleast I didn't meant to. I was just refering that classic games are classics for a reason. You can dislike them for X reasons, like everyone else, and it's fair, but that doesn't mean people at 90's or 00's didn't get it or didn't even finish the game.
Aaron Strife
Banned
"I lorded my opinions over everyone else and now everyone is disagreeing with me ;((("
Yoshi
Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
I said starting from Sonic Adventure 2, because that one introduced the rankings. Try Sonic Unleashed, it's probably the most difficult game of that kind that is also well polished.
Why is that a bit much? I'd say it's actually extremely close.
Yes, spinning through the loop is not difficult. But hitting the spring at the right speed and pushing the jump button at exactly the right point of time to get yourself transported in a way that you keep your momentum is. Moreover, if you play them as intended (i.e. no cheating via savestates), Sonic 1 and 2 are challenging, even at a slower pace.
As long as you stay on the path - for which a very precise timing is required - you don't encounter enemies in that short sequence. That does not make it not challenging to stay on that path though. There are obstacles here though, you just do not recognise them. A spring or a wall you run on can also be an obstacle when you are aiming for the perfect flow
Karsticles
Member
Cindi, I was with you until you said Mega Man is trial and error.
I don't think you meant to lump Chaotix in with the rest there.
It's more difficult than, I think, you give it credit.
Sure, the stakes are low, but the perfect run is really its own reward. Manipulating the physics is very challenging and a lot can go wrong depending on the zone, even if you have played the Zone dozens of times.
I don't enjoy Mario, Megaman, or JGR for that matter, as much as Sonic because they can all be a bit rote. Mario less than the others. The pathing in JGR in particular is very easy to optimize after a couple of runs. The challenge in JGR, much like Sonic, lies within mastering the movement. It's an ever-evolving game of controlling a character to perfection. The actual stakes aren't very high in JGR either come to think of it. Maybe Jet ranking without Gum. I think Sonic 1 is more challenging. But I can't complain too much about linearity when Sonic 1 has Marble Zone, which is usually where I quit playing Sonic 1 unless I'm up for the long haul challenge. And even then, I usually quit at Labyrinth. It isn't the Sonic game I wax lyrical about.
Wrong. The first three hardly even use momentum, you hit a direction and you're going that way full speed no matter how you're moving, even if you're jumping or running the other way. It's on your reflexes unless you're going for the nasty secret barrels in DKC1. And also this one auto barrel in one of the tree village levels, you have to sit and wait for the barrel after it to get into position or else it will fire you to your death.
Not that I agree about Sonic either for other reasons.
cireza
Member
Remove Chaotix if you want. It does not change my message.
ienjoyrawfish
Member
Remove the second sentence and replace Sega with Nintendo and this becomes accurate.
Everyone seems to have bought into Sega's marketing so hard that they think going fast is literally all there is to the series. They're playing a platformer but somehow think they're playing a racing game. The unique pinball physics and huge amount of momentum Sonic has is a massive focus of the game, moreso than the vague notion of "running fast". Slopes, speed, and jumping all being interconnected allows for more mastery over the controls than in other platformer games. Mario enamored us with the higher skill ceiling that comes with introducing a high amount of player momentum in a platformer over its competitors, but Sonic has that plus slopes massively affecting your jumps. Nowhere in Mario can you discover things like jumping at a certain point in a loop will transfer your momentum downward, allowing you to exit the loop going faster than if you had simply held right.
Now, in Sonic 1 you get whole zones that are straight up traditional platforming challenges with a lot of boring, flat ground, like Labyrinth Zone and Marble Zone between the fun and unique pinball sandbox levels like Spring Yard Zone. But as the series progressed, they added more and more slopes, half pipes, and zone/act-unique gimmicks to leverage the unique controls. There still are traditional (slow) platforming challenges or a very simple puzzle here and there to break up the action, but not entire zones full of them. This is one of the many reasons I love Sonic 3&K. As you play, you realize that if you jump at the ceiling just right, you can transfer Sonic's momentum in such a way that you can start running on the ceiling. You realize you can still get to the upper path if you time your jump while running up a half pipe just right.
Look at the map of one of the "boring platformer zones" of Sonic 1, Marble Zone.
Now look at its Sonic 3 counterpart, Marble Garden Zone. The number of slopes alone make it more interesting and Sonic-y.
Now, in Sonic 1 you get whole zones that are straight up traditional platforming challenges with a lot of boring, flat ground, like Labyrinth Zone and Marble Zone between the fun and unique pinball sandbox levels like Spring Yard Zone. But as the series progressed, they added more and more slopes, half pipes, and zone/act-unique gimmicks to leverage the unique controls. There still are traditional (slow) platforming challenges or a very simple puzzle here and there to break up the action, but not entire zones full of them. This is one of the many reasons I love Sonic 3&K. As you play, you realize that if you jump at the ceiling just right, you can transfer Sonic's momentum in such a way that you can start running on the ceiling. You realize you can still get to the upper path if you time your jump while running up a half pipe just right.
Look at the map of one of the "boring platformer zones" of Sonic 1, Marble Zone.
Now look at its Sonic 3 counterpart, Marble Garden Zone. The number of slopes alone make it more interesting and Sonic-y.
Nocturnowl
Member
doesn't said auto barrel has a symbol on it denoting it will automatically fire you so really I guess it's on you in that case.
DKC1 does like to throw surprise fast foes at you though, typically near the end of some stages.
Watching a vid, it looks like someone going fast is supposed to bypass the auto barrel altogether and someone going slower has a realistic window to see what's going on. So not a huge problem actually. But you do jump into like 5 different auto-barrels in similar scenarios before that with no penalty for doing it right away.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Disagree that JSR has low stakes. In fact that completely goes against why a lot of people prefer it to Future. JSR isn't only about controlling characters to perfection. It's also about score. Finding paths is also not always easy in JSR because it can be character specific. Getting Jet without Gum is doable but what makes it fun is picking a plan of attack: these are the tags I'm going for, in that order, before these people show up. Fight or Flight is one level and has more stakes than any Sonic level ever created. Much less getting a Jet rank. You bring up Gum but Gum has low tag count. She can only hold 15 cans at once. A lot of tags require ehhh, 14 cans to complete. If you mess up, and there's a chance you will, you need to collect more cans. Which wastes time, which is a resource and always ticking in JSR. Can you get a jet rank with Cube on Grind Square and Bantam Street? I can. I find it fun to jet on a brand new file and you can only use Cube or Combo on those stages. Shit is fun and requires perfection.
A lot can go wrong during the perfect run because a lot of Sonic platforming is luck based. I can aim for the perfect run in Mega Man down to the last pixel because Mega Man is not based around luck. In Sonic, enemies move around some times in a way you can't even see them. That's how the game is being programmed. Think Spring Yard Zone bees. Being off screen doesn't change that they're still attacking even if you can't see them. This is another flaw in Sonic's design, by the way. The luck factor. Even if you sometimes do a zone the same way, you may get different results because you activated a Botnik moving around the stage. Last night while playing Sonic 2, I got hit by something I didn't even see in Aquatic Ruin. I jumped on a Grounder and I know for a fact there's no more enemies in that area. So I'm getting on a spring to get more rings, after I land I jump to a higher plane. I get hit and it's not an arrow, not an enemy. I have no idea what hit me. Sonic luck factor. I fell to the bottom floor of Aquatic Ruin because I happen to prefer the bottom floors and their water platforming in that stage. I see a vertical half pipe and I know it's safe so I spin dash. Guess what? Sonic goes through the bottom of the vert half pipe and falls through the game screen. I have no idea what happened. Sonic luck factor. Or maybe it was the Steam version being doo doo? Who knows?
They're just badly designed games. From their level design to the enemy encounter system to the even some of the code (going through vert pipes for no reason).
In games that are about achieving the perfect run. It's ultimately about prediction and memorization. A lot can go wrong even if you know what happens. But you know what's going to happen. Whether it's doing a no kill no alert run in Metal Gear or Jet ranking run in JSR or a speed run in Mega Man 3. There's joy in mastering knowing what happens and using it to you advantage. A lot can go wrong in those games. Get seen in MGS and you'll have to restart that section. Not get a jet ranking in JSR means redoing the level. In the case of Mega Man it can sometimes mean just restarting the game. But Sonic doing the perfect run feels shallow because not everything is in your control, a lot of it is predicated by chance. At the same time the stakes are so low that it doesn't even feel like an achievement to do a perfect run. Sonic is too shallow to make the perfect run feel like something fun. Instead it just feels like routine.
Looking at 3d Sonic's it's no surprise they were so bad. IMO the core of the series is off and bad to begin with. Blazing through 3d stages is kind of no different than playing 2d Genesis Sonic. Just in 3d.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
I don't find it to be a negative. Game players see trial and error as a bad thing but really it can mean a lot of things. Whether it means exploring your options and seeing what works or whatever. It can be positive or negative. I think Mega Man's trial and error is positive. Now whether or not you agree that is trial and error is on you, but I wouldn't necessarily use my definition of the term as innately bad.
LiveFromKyoto
Member
Keep in mind there's a portion of the Sonic fanbase who literally think they're in a romantic relationship with him or one of his friends. Nobody's trying to date Dynamite Headdy.*
*
But with a name like that, maybe they should! Heyyoo!
LiveFromKyoto
Member
But the boss weakness mechanic literally is that.
Professor Beef
Banned
VendettaRed07
Member
Yeah I think the level design falls off of a cliff after the first two worlds.
2, CD, 3 & Knuckles are much more consistent games.
2, CD, 3 & Knuckles are much more consistent games.
That's because people barely talk about Dynamite Headdy at all.
And that's the real crime here
VendettaRed07
Member
How is this satisfying exactly?
It's a linear path. if you spin, you go through gap. Then you hit the spring. Spin and you gain speed and momentum. Then you jump on another spring.
There's nothing involved about this. It just looks flashy.
This summary of Sonic's gameplay is a perfect description of that gif.
This is sort of a weird argument to make against the first game in the series then. There are probably fewer instances of "auto-platforming" in the first game than any other Sonic game. It really slows down and punishes you for trying to move too quickly through the level without knowing exactly where you are going as you move on through the later parts
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Yeah I agree, those statements are really stu--
You're honestly not making any sense. Frankly, you're not even making an argument. I'm not even sure if it's a statement. Feels like a bad non sequitur.
Eh. I'm not seeing what's wrong with those two statements.
I think a lot people haven't beaten Sonic 1 but it has a legacy of being a classic game. I don't think it deserves it beyond its technology and music. My statements address completely different things. I'm not seeing the "gotcha" moment, sorry.
Watch random videos of that same section. Most have people botching it.
It's obvious the physics thing Sonic has going is just something many people find satisfying, look at Tiny Wings success on mobile.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Lorded over my opinion aka I made a thread and stated my opinion. How did I lord it over exactly?
I'm not saying many didn't get it. I think it's pretty easy to get especially during Green Hill Zone. I also wasn't talking to you when I made that post. I'm saying I bet most got stuck on Labyrinth, haven't beaten Sonic 1, and consider it a classic by proxy of being a Genesis Sonic. When I say most, I'm not referring to people who post on Neogaf.
I've played Unleashed. I think it's a bad game. The wolf sections are bad. The Sonic sections can be kind of fun sometimes when playing for rank, but the game is ultimately full of ideas that hint it has no idea which game it wants to be. It just feels like another Sonic game with a gimmick. Sonic Generations is really fun I thought and I had a lot of fun with it but it's still what I'd call an average game.
I think it's a bit much because I'm not seeing it. In a fighting game it takes a lot of practice to pull off combos, much less being able to execute them during a fight.
I beat both 1 and 2 without save states. Save states aren't really necessary. I can see that running and jumping after landing on the platform is neat, but continuing the momentum in a forward motion without stopping feels more like an experience thing and appreciating the games sense of flow than how it plays.
I guess I just don't see the appeal in Sonic's flow through levels. It just seems really simplistic to me. But if that's what people like about it, I guess that's that.
Sonic games are wholly deterministic, up to and including the bug in the collision detection.
Lord British
Member
I cannot believe it.
Telephone Man
Member
Your complaints aren't anything unique, but I did play most of the fan-game, Sonic: Before The Sequel with your mindset in mind. It was kind of interesting.
While it was always fun, it defintely was most so when it got challenging. That includes...
-A water level that put Sonic in a permanant bubble that let him double-jump and breath underwater (but can still get hurt). This allowed for more interesting platforming while not feeling overpowered like with Tails or Knuckles. I especially loved a section of it where I went up a tall, narrow path that had a couple enemies shooting at me. This required some good use of Sonic's physics and double-jumping. Plus being a vertical section, losing all your rings is possible.
-Some surprisingly tough bosses where losing all your rings is more likely to happen.
-Physics based platform. A couple times I had to jump from some round platforms and if I didn't immediately jump to somewhere more flat, Sonic would slip off and fall to a lower path. It turns the physics against me in an interesting way.
So it just seems like you're complaining about the lack of challenge for most of these games (which is no different from Kirby).
-There are defintely some moments in classic Sonic that feel automatic, but not enough to be outright boring. It's still satisfying to jump over a number of enemies or pull off tricks, at least the first time. We're just gonna have to agree to disagree here.
-I completely agree that there should be a greater chance of losing all your rings, but having a high amount serves a couple purposes (special/bonus zones and extra lives).
-And I especially don't relate to your hatred for multiple paths since they add replayablity and make the zones feel more immersive.
But I have to admit, I kind of want to see and try a Sonic game that aimed to fix these criticisms. I imagine it'd just be slow, harder, linear and platform-based with a redone health system though. Can't tell if that'd make Sonic more or less interesting.
While it was always fun, it defintely was most so when it got challenging. That includes...
-A water level that put Sonic in a permanant bubble that let him double-jump and breath underwater (but can still get hurt). This allowed for more interesting platforming while not feeling overpowered like with Tails or Knuckles. I especially loved a section of it where I went up a tall, narrow path that had a couple enemies shooting at me. This required some good use of Sonic's physics and double-jumping. Plus being a vertical section, losing all your rings is possible.
-Some surprisingly tough bosses where losing all your rings is more likely to happen.
-Physics based platform. A couple times I had to jump from some round platforms and if I didn't immediately jump to somewhere more flat, Sonic would slip off and fall to a lower path. It turns the physics against me in an interesting way.
So it just seems like you're complaining about the lack of challenge for most of these games (which is no different from Kirby).
-There are defintely some moments in classic Sonic that feel automatic, but not enough to be outright boring. It's still satisfying to jump over a number of enemies or pull off tricks, at least the first time. We're just gonna have to agree to disagree here.
-I completely agree that there should be a greater chance of losing all your rings, but having a high amount serves a couple purposes (special/bonus zones and extra lives).
-And I especially don't relate to your hatred for multiple paths since they add replayablity and make the zones feel more immersive.
But I have to admit, I kind of want to see and try a Sonic game that aimed to fix these criticisms. I imagine it'd just be slow, harder, linear and platform-based with a redone health system though. Can't tell if that'd make Sonic more or less interesting.
ViewtifulJC
Banned
underrated post
You're stating the appeal and fun of the game while overstating the difficulty of the can-management and course plotting, I think -- can-management especially, lol. Tag big things or difficult-to-reach tags first with some stage familiarity. Very little challenge involved there. I didn't think Fight or Flight was very difficult outside of the sewer (compared to Jet Ranking Bantam with Cube -- hardest part of the game, honestly). And yes, I can do all of that. I've gotten all of the achievements and didn't know about stage selection until later, which meant Grind Square and Bantam Jet Ranking on my first go 'round. It's true that Jet Set Radio Future has lower stakes than JGR, but that doesn't mean that JGR has particularly high stakes: it's hard to die or time out unless you're just playing extremely poorly. It doesn't mean that Sonic 1 has higher stakes than JGR; I just found Sonic 1 harder, especially now that I've beaten JGR. That also doesn't mean I think Sonic 1 is better. I fear my point about both games being fairly unchallenging was muddled in stake-counting. Beating JGR without being grabbed is extremely difficult, I guess, but that's extra credit and luck-oriented to a degree.
Long story short: I still find Sonic 1 harder than JGR, while playing JGR is basically rote ease outside of some control mastery. And that mastery of control is what really keeps it fun and addictive for me, long after the course (and can, lol) mastery is over and done with: getting better and better at smoothly chaining tricks and grinds. That said, I don't play JGR nearly as much as Sonic anymore. They scratch similar itches after a certain point and Sonic simply controls more reliably with greater depth to the physics management. Sonic is also easier to pick up and play. Although you do make a point: the stakes helped JGR, particularly the ranking/timer. I couldn't care less about getting better at Future, but Future has problems beyond low stakes anyway.
It's far from luck outside of a first run. Every enemy has a predictable spawning point location. And you're not doing a "perfect run" on your first run anyway.
I concede that Sonic 1 has speed traps. But that's not necessarily what I'm speaking of relates to. When you're replaying the game for mastery purposes, you know where and what you're to face.
That's highly irregular and I can't say I've experienced invisible attacks for myself. Ever. Unless I'm subconsciously repressing memories here. Are you sure it wasn't a fly? If it wouldn't be too much a burden to replay Sonic 2 again, could you attempt to replicate it?
Vince DiCola
Member
I'm currently replaying the game and I've got to admit, the controls are a bit.. off. Compared to the sequels anyway, occasionally Sonic just won't jump and this has cost me but I'm still loving it.
I disagree with OP about Marble Zone, it's just a slower more tricky platform level and Labyrinth Zone is cool. It's a real change of pace, the desperate race for air at times is quite tense and the boss fight is alright, a vertical platform chase.
I've stopped to eat so I'm at Starlight Zone, not long left but so far I still rate Sonic 1 highly, it just has worse controls than the sequels.
Music is still badass too.
I disagree with OP about Marble Zone, it's just a slower more tricky platform level and Labyrinth Zone is cool. It's a real change of pace, the desperate race for air at times is quite tense and the boss fight is alright, a vertical platform chase.
I've stopped to eat so I'm at Starlight Zone, not long left but so far I still rate Sonic 1 highly, it just has worse controls than the sequels.
Music is still badass too.
SonicMegaDrive
Member
I played it too! So good.
I need to play a different Sonic game for a change tho. I've been meaning to fire up Sonic CD again ever since the Sonic Mania announcement. It's an excellent game but it requires a much larger time investment. The only question is, US soundtrack or Japanese? Hmmmm...
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Rings shouldn't act as a health system because they're too easy to gather and make playing the game inconsequential. Who cares if you get hit if you can get that one single ring? Rings are a poorly thought out mechanic.
Rings should only function as a form of buffing score. The more rings you get, the higher your score. Otherwise, Sonic should either have a health bar like Mega Man which he can replenish with something, or perhaps no way to replenish health at all and all hits determine your output. If not that, he should be allowed only two hits until death. Going through Death Egg without rings shows just how fundamentally broken the health system in Sonic is. One hit kills are a bit lame with no way to buff yourself with protection. Sonic should have protection, but it shouldn't be an almost guaranteed protection like rings.
Replayability should be focused on play style rather than different paths. Often in Sonic, if you fall from a path, you'll just land on another one. This makes it a not very good platformer because accountability goes through the window. This is why I generally prefer the bottom half of stages: they're one of the few ways to make Sonic games less boring. A platformer where death is rarely a problem when you fall from platforms isn't a very good platformer at all.
As it is, Ristar already exists and is probably the game you're looking for: a game that takes the basic principles of Sonic and puts them in a more traditional platformer. I think Ristar is better than every Sonic game.
This post is very informative, and it really nails why I (and others, probably) find these games fun.
Yeah, this reads like you really don't like Genesis Sonic games, as they're not what you're looking for in a platformer. I think the thing is, though, that the set of design decisions that you value in a platformer is not necessarily the only right way to do it. For example, being able to find routes that let you avoid enemies entirely and beat the game in a faster, easier, or just plain different way is part of the appeal of a lot of these games.
The key thing is that the things you mention liking in platformers are not, fundamentally, the only good way to make a platformer.
I actually have a similar opinion on 3D action game combat. I don't like the slow, deliberate combat that games like the Souls series and Monster Hunter are centered around. The stamina management, especially, is really frustrating to me. I prefer a game like Devil May Cry, where you have much more freedom at any given moment to change what you're doing, dodge attacks, etc. The thing is, though, the reason why I like DMC and dislike Souls can be the same reason that a person likes Souls and dislikes DMC.
Basically what I'm saying is that all the things you pointed out about Genesis Sonic's design are true, but the conclusion that the game is unequivocally "kinda bad" is flawed and somewhat closed-minded. It's a shame that you're being dogpiled on, really; it can be difficult to see why people enjoy something that hits all these marks that you consider bad, and even I've had that problem for years. I hope this didn't sound patronizing or anything, I really don't mean it to.
Oh, and on a final note on these game's design: many of the bits with loops and corkscrews are pure spectacle and not very interactive. As someone who loves the games, that's entirely true, and frankly, it's also not a bad thing. They divide up the more involved parts of the levels, and they just look cool. There's nothing wrong with taking a break from more nuanced design just to look cool every now and then.
Since Mania seems to be influenced by the Japanese soundtrack more I'd stick with that.
Besides, it fits the Metal Sonic race a lot better I feel
Lord British
Member
I personally think that they're actually an extremely well thought out mechanic, one of the more genius things Sonic brought to the table. Thanks to rings, a tiny child can beat these games. And that's good! It's good that the games are so accessible, with this friendliness and the one-button control scheme. They're perfect games to introduce kids to the hobby - people with physical disabilities could play Sonic pretty easily, even.
As many in this thread have discussed, getting good can be a no-hit clear, getting x number of rings, beating a certain time, collecting and carrying 50 to get to the special stage. It's versatile, and without the rings the games wouldn't be nearly as popular as they are because a vast, vast quantity of players wouldn't get past the first few stages.
It's a different type of platformer, offering a different experience, as described extensively by people in a much more erudite way than I could manage.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
SMB3 offers a better option than Sonic: leaving it down to choice. In Mario 3 you grind out shit like p wings and tanuki suits as secondary items in their own menu. But guess what? You don't have to use them. Giving players options determines a good game. Being forced to use the ring mechanic allows little kids to beat the games and have fun, but it makes playing them as an adult an exercise in pointlessness because it feels shallow and lacks choice. Meanwhile in SMB3, you can do a regular run and completely ignore the extra stuff you get. Sonic offers a poor alternative, and it's no surprise that not many games took inspiration from the ring system. It's just poor. Even after Sonic's release, most platformers still had health bars. Sonic is made to help little kids beat it and little else. It's clearly designed as an alternative for kids who couldn't beat their arcade games.
It's not only a different type of platformer. I think these reasons make it a bad platformer as it betrays the entire point of the genre.
My taste is not "warped to crazytown" and I do not have "strange taste" in games.
I replayed up to Green Hill and Marble Zone last night and the controls were just as tight as I had expected. And the rewards for successfully platforming were just as I had remembered too.
It's one thing not to like it. But dude, stop trying to convince people it's a bad game. You quoted Duck Tales as a game better than Sonic 1. While I love that game, it's worse in nearly every aspect including level design and controls. You don't like Sonic. We get it lol.
It's one thing not to like it. But dude, stop trying to convince people it's a bad game. You quoted Duck Tales as a game better than Sonic 1. While I love that game, it's worse in nearly every aspect including level design and controls. You don't like Sonic. We get it lol.
Lord British
Member
I think your comparison is flawed because Sonic offers far more choice on a moment-to-moment basis than Mario does. The wide-open levels that have been crafted in such an way to allow for choice to manifest itself in almost every action on every playthrough. "Choice" is absolutely the single word I'd use to describe why Sonic works. Choice is why the games are popular and successful.
Sonic was never trying to be Mario. It's different and that's a good thing.
You know what Sonic with a health bar is? Bubsy 2.
baudelinog
Member
You all that already didn't, should play Master System Sonic right NOW!!!!
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Alternatively, people can stop trying to convince me it's a good game. But this is a discussion forum and the entire point of it is to talk. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I don't even care. I'm just rebutting arguments I disagree with, because that's the entire point of this board. It's funny how you and others keep saying to "stop trying to convince people it's bad" like I'm doing a door to door Jehovah Witness campaign on why Sonic the Hedgehog is trash. All we're doing is talking in a thread, about why I think it's bad, with people trying to convince me it's good. The entire point of NeoGaf has seemed to escape you.
SonicMegaDrive
Member
Good, bad, it's all opinions anyway. Everyone is entitled to theirs. Who cares
It just sounds like Sonic games aren't for you if you hate this type of level design, I on the otherhand love it. But curiously you mention Ristar in the next paragraph which has little to no (As far as I remember) bottomless pits.
Still baffles me why Sonic Team decided to dropped it. Suppose that's how you could tell it was a great mechanic!