ElectricBlanketFire
Member
You have multiple people asking you what her faults are.
My troll detector has been broken for some time.
Is Hillary smack-talk not allowed here anymore?
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You have multiple people asking you what her faults are.
My troll detector has been broken for some time.
Silver Arrows
Banned
.
but sure, perpetuate the fact that we should give time and space to right wing white supremacists
lmao
boiled goose
good with gravy
Fair enough on the oscillations. Flip flopping might be not exactly what I meant. Fair-weather still applies. She adopts positions conveniently after it is acceptable to do so instead of taking a stand and being a leader. See Iraq, Gay marriage, TPP, etc.
I prefer leadership and principle over convenience in my politicians, even though it might be unpopular or not 'pragmatic'. It is a personal thing. It reflects my personal values, which is why I would not make a very successful politician.
Where did I say Hillary is particularly worse than other politicians? In fact, being able to play ball and being calculating about what stances she adopts contributes to both her success and her lack of appeal. It is hard to know what her vision for America is. Everything she says seems like it is put together by panels.
I'd like to emphasize that I don't dislike her personally at all. Voted for her in 08 primary and will vote for her in November.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
Hillary Clinton is a better president and a better con artist than Donald Trump.
whyamihere
Banned
Who is doing that? You were asked what your criticism of her were, and then you declined to provide any!
Hillary Clinton is an imperfect person, as most of us are, and is a human being with failings. Maybe more than most, but less than a lot. There are things I don't like about her and that people are right to criticize her for. There are things that are stupid that she shouldn't be criticized for. I honestly don't know what world you are living in where you feel that you can't argue about her record here.
Bad Trip is hand-waving away us telling him Clinton's faults.
This. It's one thing to have legitimate arguments and conversations, it's another to some with crazy sources and speculations. Sort of the way Bernie supporters started being disregarded once they went off the deep end, same is happening with Trump supporters/HiIlary attackers.
Of course you can criticize her. It's just that most of the critique I've seen is either total & utter BS, blown totally out of of proportion or really inconsequential in the grand scheme of things. She's hardly perfect but she is a good candidate in a lot of ways. She'll mostly seem to continue on the path of Obama in a lot of cases (though also her opinion seems to differ in important key issues like TTIP, which she seems to be against vs. Obama's administration rooting for it), which is a good path to continue on in most regards, certainly about a million times better than Trump or any right-wing candidate would be.
GrantDaNasty
Member
Feel free to critique a candidate for legitimate reasons, just don't go about finding a bigger loudspeaker if people aren't hearing it, because that's just obnoxious.
And yes, make sure your criticism is well-founded and legitimate. If anyone wishes to challenge that, you can either prove it...or if there is a lack of proof, you can attest that you believe thing X, other person believes thing Y and agree to disagree.
One of the arguments I often hear is "She's not personable/I don't like her personality". You are aware the Presidency of the U.S is more than just being a face, right? I get that Obama has swagger for miles on end, but at the end of the day, the most important element of voting an official is "ARE THEY QUALIFIED TO DO THE JOB Y/N?".
And yes, make sure your criticism is well-founded and legitimate. If anyone wishes to challenge that, you can either prove it...or if there is a lack of proof, you can attest that you believe thing X, other person believes thing Y and agree to disagree.
One of the arguments I often hear is "She's not personable/I don't like her personality". You are aware the Presidency of the U.S is more than just being a face, right? I get that Obama has swagger for miles on end, but at the end of the day, the most important element of voting an official is "ARE THEY QUALIFIED TO DO THE JOB Y/N?".
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
Dude what are you even saying? You should look at everyone's position on gay marriage in 2008. Don't just repeat the same tired phrases without actually digging in.
No one was for gay marriage in 2008. Whoever you're thinking of? Not publicly for it.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
If you believe Hillary criticism isn't allowed here then that's what you'll see.
Lord Frieza
Member
Guys, just so you know, ksharp notoriously shit-posted all throughout the DNC with articles about Hillary that many called out as questionable, and then went on to say how all the speeches were nice but none of them tried to sell her on her actual accomplishments, despite the fact that several of them did, especially Bill Clinton's speech, which included what was basically an abridged bullet point of her qualifications and accomplishments. It's pretty obvious what agenda he's trying to push.
Battlechili
Banned
Legitimately if people want, I'd be willing to give a bit of a brief explanation for why I personally think Hillary may not be the best candidate to vote for in the election, if that's essentially what OP is wishing more people would be able to do.
Otakumegane
Member
If there are outstanding issues in which you disagree with her political stances that's fine. All we're asking you is to explain your point of view in something that doesn't involve not wanting to have a beer with her. You have so far, delivered a thesis, but have not backed it up with a coherent argument.
But that's it , her faults are always hand waved against Trumps faults . Why can't there just be an agreement her faults are legitimate and people who have issues with those faults have the right to have concern . To always just say well Clinton.. BUT TRUMP IS WORSE is always so lazy and reeks of blind bias to me . I'm not debating which candidate is better , that question answers itself . My point is that people never want to stick on her faults as an individual without deferring to Trump . That was my point , it seems like no criticisms can stick and are hand waved away for "reasons".
I'd love you to, but in context. How will her shortcomings be improved/better under Donald trump.
You do you, but you gotta be prepared for people to answer you in kind.
As long as everyone keeps it rational then we can all get ice-cream afterwards.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
It just sounds to me you're too focused on changing stupid people instead of finding better ones to talk to.
Simon Belmont
Banned
I'm not accusing anybody in particular here, but if you are currently young you might not be able to appreciate how quick the about-face on gay marriage actually was when compared to how slowly other social issues have moved.
Of course, I'm not saying LGBTQ issues are solved completely, and I'm not downplaying their struggles in any way. I'm just saying attitudes changed both in the general population and in the political class pretty quickly.
Spiral Insanity
Banned
What level of smack talk? I see some disgusting shit posted about her.. and it isn't the same as the hate Donald Trump is getting, because he is actually saying crazy shit. Nobody is attacking Donald Trump for being a man, either, yet a lot of the Hillary hate is extremely misogynistic.
whyamihere
Banned
You've got to start giving examples or this is going to become needlessly frustrating.
RedAssedApe
Banned
I kind of like that bookworm factor. It makes me think she's been/going to be putting in the work versus being a figure head. DNC helped a lot to establish her likeability (seeing her interaction with children and families). Also...in all fairness, having Obama for 8 years set the bar wayyyyy high for charisma.
There's a neogaffe joke in there.
ElectricBlanketFire
Member
WHAT. ARE. HER. FAULTS?!
You keep saying they're being hand waved away. Multiple people are ASKING you to list them.
ClosingADoor
Member
Well, it is a two person race. So saying the other is a worse choice is a good argument, when that is the only choice you have to make. If there are a dozen people running who could become president, the discussions would be more interesting.
And most issues I have seen regarding Clinton are very minor or just disagreements on policy, and not really faults. She has been in the spotlight for decades now, so there really isn't much hidden.
DontBeThatGuy
Member
Is HIllary my first choice? No. Am I sad that we live in a country where one side is so terrible, who's so willing to be regressive and dangerous, that so many of us have to vote only one way in order to see any progress, or to simply play defense? Yes, it's very unfortunate, but too many people are terrible, so that's currently the hand we've been dealt. So be it.
But Hillary is also far from bad, and her policies she's campaigning on are plenty respectable, and once again, compared to the other side, she's a goddamn saint.
But Hillary is also far from bad, and her policies she's campaigning on are plenty respectable, and once again, compared to the other side, she's a goddamn saint.
1.21Gigawatts
Banned
I criticized Clinton and Sanders a lot and don't remember any push back. Usually I stated my opinion in short in a first comment and some people asked for me to go into more detail and when I followed up with a more elaborate post I didn't get any reactions.
I'd say there is a lack of constructive discussion of Clintons policies on GAF, same was true for Sanders.(Sanders supporters usually didn't make good arguments for Sanders, Clinton supporters usually didn't make good arguments against Sanders)
But I can't say that constructive criticism gets any pushback here, there is a lot of criticism thats not constructive however and that obviously gets some pushback.
I'd say there is a lack of constructive discussion of Clintons policies on GAF, same was true for Sanders.(Sanders supporters usually didn't make good arguments for Sanders, Clinton supporters usually didn't make good arguments against Sanders)
But I can't say that constructive criticism gets any pushback here, there is a lot of criticism thats not constructive however and that obviously gets some pushback.
Splash Wave
Member
massivekettle
Member
This is pure slander. I was only in the DNC thread during Obama's speech, which is the only one I saw live (I saw parts of Hillary Clinton's speech a few days later). Never saw Bill's or any other speech and I even said so myself in that thread.
spindashing
Banned
Seriously. I mean even Great King Emperor Obama "flip flopped" about it.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...a/president-barack-obamas-shift-gay-marriage/
Why is "grabbing a beer with a politician" so important thing in America? Bush's victories over Gore and Kerry were apparently because he had the so-called "beer factor". Should it even matter?
radios shipping overview
Member
Aaron Strife
Banned
LIKE WHAT
If by "hand waved away" do you actually mean "focused so intensely upon by the GOP for decades that they've built a narrative?" She's one of the most criticized politicians in Washington.
boiled goose
good with gravy
uh... Hillary started to support gay marriage in 2013.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...ry-clinton-change-position-same-sex-marriage/
Maybe the OP is right.. :S
Kneejerk jumpy defense force for Hillary for everything.
Because anyone left of center always believed it was fine, but, being politicians, said they did not until it was politically beneficial.
rokkerkory
Member
Hillary gets my vote only because Trump is a monster.
She is a better leader even with all the drawbacks. Do I agree with all of her stances? NOPE but do I even want to be in the same area code as Trump? NOPEEEE
She is a better leader even with all the drawbacks. Do I agree with all of her stances? NOPE but do I even want to be in the same area code as Trump? NOPEEEE
I don't agree with past policies she's voted for , she's not as left as I'd like in her policies and even if Beenie forced her farther left I don't believe she genuinely supports those ideological views he's forced her to asopt. She's deep in lobbyist pockets . She's voted for the Iraq war and has demonstrated she's a hawk . The Clinton foundation is about as transparently corrupt as could be with how they spend money and how nepotism through the foundation has been . I think she's far too centrist for my political leanings. She's late to social stances and even if she silently agrees she refuses to take an visible and vocal stance (gay marriage prior to legalization) drug decriminalization , sexism , racism , etc.
DontBeThatGuy
Member
Hell no it shouldn't matter. Substance over style, or better yet, how about both. (Obama)
brainchild
Banned
Her stance on the death penalty?
Most Hillary supporters defend it by either stating that "everyone else supports it" or "it helps her electability", both complete bullshit answers, imo.
I think this is due to many Hillary supporters being aware that all of her policies have to get past a Republican congress. Alot of people are simply voting for the status quo rather than a regression.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
LOL ok.
Obama didn't even come out in support of gay marriage until the pressure got too much to say it after Biden aired his support.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Honestly, until a few days ago I didn't even know that she supported it. It's certainly disappointing.
DontBeThatGuy
Member
Obama supporting gay marriage goes back to the 90's actually, but that's politics for you.
davepoobond
you can't put a price on sparks
now that she is a liberal on lots of issues, that's a negative because she apparently agrees with me on a lot of issues
if i want someone to agree with me, they better have ALWAYS agreed with me, otherwise they can take a hike!!!!
if i want someone to agree with me, they better have ALWAYS agreed with me, otherwise they can take a hike!!!!
Alright cool these are all things that can be talked about in a rational way.
In fact, I'd say a lot of Hillary supporters on GAF agree with a lot of what you're saying!
boiled goose
good with gravy
Hillary didn't come out in support of Gay Marriage till 2013. Late to the party is an understatement..
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...ry-clinton-change-position-same-sex-marriage/
Instead of saying LOL ok, you should concede my point. She was late here. You were so jumpy to defend Hillary you didn't even 'dig in' yourself.
Again, I also hold that against Obama. Gay marriage got a bump from americans after Obama came out in favor of it, especially from African Americans.
I value leadership and principle or politically popular.
I know... I'm saying I don't like that.
Hillary is the epitome of 'politics'.Nah. I will criticize Hillary, Trump, Obama, Sanders, Stein, anyone right now when warranted.
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