Her artwork there doesn't even matchup with her ingame model. Her thighs are like 2x bigger ingameHer Summer Games spray finally makes it 100% clear she isn't fat. There are some that wish she was.
Overwatch has developed quite a fan art following....
- Thread starter orthodoxy1095
- Start date
yanipheonu
Member
This. Her legs alone don't seem to match up.
The Mei Mystery continues.
This is gonna be like Diglett where we just never see what she really look like, isn't it? Lol
WaffleTaco
Wants to outlaw technological innovation.
Mei looks ridiculous. Her chest was made abnormally large and I don't think Blizzard made the right choice with making her fit. Plus size women should be represented too.
Ragnorok64
Member
I'm assuming you're talking about the fanart, but Mei being busty has always been the case.
The only real point of contention that people have to hold on to is the appearance of her thighs in game. Considering her wildly oversized boots, I'm willing to chalk that up to artistic embellishment.
I'm assuming you're talking about the fanart, but Mei being busty has always been the case.
The only real point of contention that people have to hold on to is the appearance of her thighs in game. Considering her wildly oversized boots, I'm willing to chalk that up to artistic embellishment.
God forbid plus size women would be represented... Gotta have more skinny women.
Ragnorok64
Member
I feel people are somewhat conflating issues here. From concept art, to the Beat the Heat spray, to the Summer Games spray when we're shown Mei outside of the layers and layers of clothing she isn't fat. Yet in this thread we have people saying Blizzard backpedaled, and they "chose wrong" when in fact the depiction is just consistent with the character.
I understand people want everyone represented but honestly I'd just wait and see what Blizzard as in store rather than gnashing teeth. I remember there was thread complaining about there not being an old female character in the game and, what do you know, Blizzards already had Ana in the pipeline. I wouldn't be surprised if they have some sort of bulky woman already concepted out, as they seem pretty intent on hitting as many demographics as possible with this game.
Concept art is completely and utterly meaningless and irrelevant. The Beat the Heat spray doesn't depict her lower body enough to make a real judgement. Mei's body type remained ambiguous until the summer spray was released. The reason people are upset was because they were lead to expectations of having a plus size woman. This is reasonable. This is not however to say that Blizzard did anything wrong here. They didn't. But people got an idea in their head and then reality didn't match up. Without anyone being at fault, disappointment is understandable.
And it is a missed opportunity on blizzard's part and telling people to "Wait, maybe they'll have another character in" is bullshit even in a game as inclusive as this when the people in question almost NEVER get good representation. It's just as likely we won't get a plus size female character at all.
So Mei's size being removed from ambiguity is understandably hurtful to people who chose to interpret her as larger.
The thing is, as someone who grew up putting on crazy snow gear to go play outside in the wintertime, there's only so much you can put on before you're unable to move properly. I think Mei's outfit obviously gives her a lot of padding, but I don't think—if we're bringing real-world ideas into this argument—her legs could be nearly as thick as they are in-game thanks to outfit alone.
Look at her summer spray, look at her in-game model, and you'd have to expect that her outfit almost doubles the width of her legs. No way in the world is she moving her legs in an outfit like that (especially given her in-game model's outfit in the legs area is form-fitting, not big and loose where we could write it off like in that concept art).
Look at her summer spray, look at her in-game model, and you'd have to expect that her outfit almost doubles the width of her legs. No way in the world is she moving her legs in an outfit like that (especially given her in-game model's outfit in the legs area is form-fitting, not big and loose where we could write it off like in that concept art).
Dragon Puncher
Member
In my head cannon Mei will always be chubby. I like that much more than just having another skinny chinese stereotype in a video game.
Ragnorok64
Member
Concept art is definitely relevant when the concepts depicted remain consistent throughout the iterations of a character. It makes it clear that Mei's actual size has been consistent from concept through to execution.
I also challenge how "understandable" being hurt by a character not matching up with the idea someone had in their head is. I get being surprised, because, yes, if someone only went by the in game model there is plenty of room for interpretation. If people are getting feelings hurt because they "...got an idea in their head and then reality didn't match up." That's on them.
People are free to campaign for a chunky female character all they want. It's just ridiculous to take umbrage that it isn't Mei, when it fact it was never Mei to begin with.
It is in no way relevant unless Blizzard is also meant to be criticized for Mei's clothing and gun ending up inconsistent with the final game product. You cannot cherry pick when it's relevant and when it's not. It either is or isn't. And given that Concept art is just that, art of a concept and not meant to be the finalized product, then we can safely say it's not. It ceases to canonically exist once a product is final.
There really isn't anyone to blame here. When confronted with ambiguity, people make their own guesses and inferences. When that ambiguity is removed, and the reality falls short of the expectation, then disappointment ensues. It's very understandable. It's the same kind of expectation where you hope that a particular day will be sunny and it's rainy instead. It's not 'on' anyone that the expectation is wrong, but natural disappointment with the situation that can't really be blamed on anyone.
No, it's not, because creative decisions are meant to change if that's in the service of the character. If people feel that Mei was better interpretted as fat, then regardless of what she was before, Blizzard had the freedom to make her fat. Perhaps blizzard thinks otherwise and that she's better as this buxom figure, and that's fair enough, but if you're arguing people are ridiculous for desiring and even expecting a good change to the character, then no, they're not.
Durrzerker
Banned
More Anahardt!
Dad76, Mayor of Viperville.
Ragnorok64
Member
What? Where is this all of nothing stipulation coming from other than yourself? There were clearly iterative changes to the outfit details, and weapon (giving it less overlap with Zarya), but the base concept of Chinese girl, in huge snow gear, with an ice gun remained throughout. The consistency of the figure she's depicted with throughout the art is what's important. But, I've said this before so we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this because we're going around in circles.
You used the term hurtful. If someone is getting their emotions tied up with their unsubstantiated expectations that is absolutely on them. In your weather analogy it'd be the difference between being upset if all the forecasts you look at for a specific day say "it'll be sunny" and instead it rains, or simply saying "I hope it's sunny on Friday," without actually looking at forecasts or radars, and being upset that it isn't sunny. Sure you can be upset in both situations but in the second example it's not reasonable since the expectation wasn't based on anything substantial.
Why should people expect them to make the character what she isn't? It doesn't make sense to project onto a character so hard that you actually become upset when it doesn't match your head canon. Who's the content creator and whose the consumer?
Ragnorok64
Member
http://deepmazenta.deviantart.com/a...he old version of Soldier 76 in this picture.
You seem to misunderstand how concept art works: in that anything could be changed. Mei being chinese could change to any other ethnicity. Mei being ice themed could have changed to a fire theme. Mei being a girl could have changed to being a boy. There is literally nothing solid about the conceptual stage of development. Usually, not everything about a concept art is changed, sometimes the core ideas remain similar, as it happened to be with Mei. But at no point is anything off limits to change. Everything is mutable.
That's why concept art is irrelevant. It's useful for going back and seeing how the developer got from there to here, but it is never by itself any evidence of anything. Before the summer skin, you show someone who envisions Mei as fat the concept art, their response would be "Well, they must have/might have changed it". And you'd be left with nowhere to go.
Of course it's reasonable to be upset. The only rationale to be upset that you need is that you didn't get what you want when you had no expectation to believe you wouldn't. That's Mei's situation. They don't need an aggressive party or someone to willfully set their expectations. They just need to have those expectations. And I use the term hurtful because disappointment hurts.
You seem to conflate reality with fiction here. Mei isn't anything inherently. She's just an idea. She was thin in original concept art. Now she's thin in the game. If she were to be fat in the game, then she'd be fat. This wouldn't be any kind of betrayal of character of who she originally is, it'd just be a development in the span of that character's identity.
And regardless of whose the consumer and whose the creator, every person has the right to disagree about creative decisions. A lot of people thought Mei being fat was a good idea, for various reasons. I've yet to hear much of an argument for why Mei being thin is a good idea. So I'm inclined to say that Blizzard made the wrong decision as of now. Fat Mei is more interesting than thin but big titted Mei, if only for the sheer novelty of the character. Creator's have an inalienable right to do what they want with their creations, but that doesn't mean all the decisions they make with that creation will be the right one. This seems to be an example of that.
Ragnorok64
Member
Except we aren't in a a pre summer games spray world. We now have the spray to compare to the concept art, which was already in line with the Beat the Heat spray, and can establish a thread from concept to execution.
We clearly have different criteria for what constitutes reasonable.
How is it that when people are upset that Mei isn't fat, a concept that exists in head canon, oh nobody is at fault. But, Blizzard simply having her be busty but not overweight, which is how she's been depicted even in concept stage, is somehow the "wrong decision"?
What's more the whole Idea of "I've yet to hear much of an argument for why Mei being thin is a good idea." is flawed in that it puts the onus on the wrong side. If she had been shown to have been fat in concept art or something, and then they made her skinny, then I could kind of understand the expectation of someone having to argue why the change was made. It makes no sense to me why one would have to argue why a Mei is how she's apparently always been, as opposed to how some people imagined her to be.
Technically, Symmetra is also a villain.
Abstrusity
Member
And Zarya.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
This is some incoherent art.
Ana young, Reaper young and whitewashed and 76 old.
Good job artist.
Ragnorok64
Member
We don't need to compare it to the concept art, because we have the spray now. No one needs to see the concept art to see that she's thin. So either way, the concept art is irrelevant. Why do we need redundant information that tells us mei is thin when we have the spray?
Fault implies moral failure of some kind. I don't see that happening. They just made the wrong choice in their art. Like, George Lucas didn't commit any kind of sin when he made the prequel trilogy, but I would still say the vast majority of his artistic decisions are wrong.
No, because, again, concept art is meaningless. If giving plus size girls a representation is the right decision, then whether it only used to be that she was fat or whether she was always thin is a meaningless distinction: either way, fat people aren't getting the representation.
And again, you're acting like there is some kind of immutable element to this. Why does it matter that Mei was 'always like this'? She's a fictional character. There is nothing inherent about fictional characters as they can be made to do anything and be anything at any time for any reason.
Ragnorok64
Member
The artist actually did readjust Reaper's coloring. and left this kinda adorable comment.
Sometime I think people have to keep in mind that issues like whitewashing are way more on them minds of those in western lands like the US or UK, but don't always come up into the thoughts of people in lands where most of the population is racially homogeneous. Like that Japanese(?) artist that got blasted on tumblr a while ago for doing Steven Universe fan art where Garnet didn't look black enough.
Old Soldier 76 still makes no sense.
Blizzard chose to stick to what seems to be their original conception of the character despite a contingent of the fanbase expressing the desire that they rather something else.
Blizzard's position--or lack thereof--is neither a good thing or a bad thing. It just is. Just because they can, and there is no reason they shouldn't does not mean they must.
In short: it is unfair to pin Blizzard with responsibility for not conforming to peoples' understandable misconceptions.
Just to clear something up here, my claim is not and hasn't been that they 'must'. In fact, I said the opposite: Creators have a right to do what they want with their creations. My argument is that that does not mean they will make the right decision.
I don't see what is gained by having Mei be thin, when a lot of people were happy having a plus size girl represent them in a game. I mean, it's not like it ruins the character, but I don't see the benefit.
So while I argue that Blizzard made the wrong choice and I argue that people have a right to be disappointed with that, I never argued against Blizzard's right to make that choice.
Ok I feel like there's several things are are weird about this conversation:
Considering there is no obvious and flagrant discrepancy between that interpretation and her characterization or the narrative, this is not something that even has to be be justified. "I like it" is actually good enough. It's not even like she was "sexed up" from her initial concept or something.
Again, "I might have preferred X" or mild disappointment seem like a-ok reactions to me. I think Mei is a cool (herp derp) design no matter how "plump" one thinks she should be. But no serious transgression, no "mistake" has occurred here as far as I can tell (maybe I'm misreading the tone of some people?). The emotions you're expressing (or maybe more accurately just arguing for) aren't congruent with what has actually happened or the arc of Mei's character design.
Parting gift:
Source
- Treating "thin" and "chubby" as some sort of dichotomy is off. It doesn't matter how you interpret Mei's figure - either way produces a body type that differs from say Widowmaker or Tracer or whoever. Just dismissing Olympic Mei as "bog standard thin" feels like its doing a strong disservice to the concept of nuance?
- What even is the line between "chubby" and "thin"? It feels like it varies widely from person to person (and I think even the fanart reflects this). Since I assume most people aren't arguing a straight up obese interpretation of the character, what someone considers "suitably" chubby is going to vary wildly.
- As far as I can tell, the reason concept art is brought up is to reinforce the fact that this was an aspect of Mei that Blizzard never intentionally deceived people on. There was no "bait and switch" here, no promise of one design then replaced with another one. Only consistency has been displayed. So the argument wouldn't even be "this interpretation is off" but rather "this character design was always bad".
- It's one thing to be disappointed when your personal headcannon doesn't match reality. It's fine to say "I personally would have preferred X". It's another thing to say a "thinner" interpretation of the character is "wrong" or "lets down plus-sized women". Blizzard is no more "wrong" on this than they are "wrong" for not making "Pharmacy" an official couple
- This leads into this weird implication of the obvious moral superiority of a chubby interpretation over a thinner one. Even as someone who believes in the importance of representation, I disagree? One interpretation isn't "right" or "wrong", one isn't taking the "moral highroad".
Considering there is no obvious and flagrant discrepancy between that interpretation and her characterization or the narrative, this is not something that even has to be be justified. "I like it" is actually good enough. It's not even like she was "sexed up" from her initial concept or something.
Again, "I might have preferred X" or mild disappointment seem like a-ok reactions to me. I think Mei is a cool (herp derp) design no matter how "plump" one thinks she should be. But no serious transgression, no "mistake" has occurred here as far as I can tell (maybe I'm misreading the tone of some people?). The emotions you're expressing (or maybe more accurately just arguing for) aren't congruent with what has actually happened or the arc of Mei's character design.
Parting gift:
Source
Yes boobs but like I think this piece is legitimately adorable <3
Also food porn!
Also food porn!
nice
These are all good points, especially the part that questions what 'thinness' even is.
Let me just clear up my position a bit more:
I don't see this as a moral thing. For me, it's just a metric of good art to have a diversity of representation. While Mei retains a distinct body type that isn't typically lean, it's clear that there is some disappointment among people that want her to be bigger than what she is. But this doesn't mean Blizzard did anything wrong or decieved the audience or whatever.
It just means that their disappointment is understandable. They had an ambiguous situation, went with one interpretation, and it didn't turn out to be the official one. Furthermore, I maintain that Mei having a larger body type may have been more interesting and more emotionally gratifying for people who want that kind of representation in the game. As such, I don't think it was the way to go. It's not a moral thing, any more than George Lucas is morally wrong for writing "I hate sand", but it's not the best creative direction to go in imo.
That said, let me make one disclaimer: I'm really really passionate about stories and art, and I'm really passionate about Overwatch. About Mei? Not so much. I'm mostly arguing the principle of the point as a more detached observer. I would have preferred Mei to be fat, but honestly, she's one of my more ignored characters. I dislike playing against her, since most of mains are vulnerable to her, and I like the personalities of other characters more. So I actually don't have strong feelings on Mei herself. So I'm not really making the arguments I'm making from an emotionally invested place. I don't feel slighted by Blizzard, or feel they slighted others. I'm not trying to preach any kind of moral superiority.
In as detached manner as I can reasonably be expected to be, I just don't think this was the right call.
Is that Drew Scanlon in the middle?
WaffleTaco
Wants to outlaw technological innovation.
It's just so not proportionate...like seriously if that was real, she would be dying for a reduction surgery and her back would be aching.
Oh, I was not making a 'rights of the artist' type of argument. Sorry if it seemed that way.
I simply take issue that there was a 'right' or 'wrong' decision to be made. Hell, I barely consider it to be a 'decision' at all.
She would also more than likely die the moment she encased herself in ice.
How do you mean? Isn't everything an artist decides to create in his fiction some kind of decision?
SomeRandomWeirdGuy
Member
Some women have "disproportionate" boobs. For all the talk of body positivity I see online, people are quick to shut down anything featuring women with huge boobs, and act like it's somehow unrealistic. It's possible for women to be thin and have very large breasts. Just look up Hitomi Tanaka (NSFW)
WaffleTaco
Wants to outlaw technological innovation.
Well that's true, I think this is a bit different.
It is unrealistic for most women. And while it is possible it still doesn't mean they look natural. I just think the artist is a bit pervy.
RockTurtle
Member
im on team TIDDIES
Left to Right
- Road Runner
- Dash
- Flash (Barry Allen) - CW
- Quicksilver - MCU
- Scout
- Tracer
- Classic Sonic
With regards to Mei, her Olympic spray doesn't confirm anything. (If that was the case, then Roadhog's Olympian skin gives him flabby arms, McCree owns a horse, and Soldier 76 had taken time from his busy schedule as a mercenary to play golf.) Besides, have the actual developers stated what Mei's body type is? Any interviews? Until the "Word of God" states otherwise, it's still open for interpretation.
Anyway, let's get back on track with posting some kick ass fan art!
Anyway, let's get back on track with posting some kick ass fan art!
Source
Source
Source
Ragnorok64
Member
The problem with that line of reasoning is that this fictional world is cartoony by nature. It demands that you suspend your disbelief for pretty much any of it to work, yet people want to cut off their suspension of disbelief specifically for sexy characters, even when it doesn't break the internal logic of the work. Like I don't know how many times I see people say how much a characters would be complaining about back pain or whatever when talking about characters that clearly do superhuman things.
You want to talk about impossible characters and backpain look at Junkrat. If we applied the same expectation of realism to his design as you are to Mei (ignoring his constantly smoldering hair, proportions, and ability to launch himself with explosives), he wouldn't really work at all, he has a freakin peg leg! Have you ever actually sat back and looked at his running animation? It made me uncomfortable the first time I saw it, because while well animated, that guy would be in never ending pain. His hips and lower spine contort a ton just as he's running around. We as viewers understand we're dealing with fictional cartoon characters, and we let it slide.
If you think a drawing is "pervy" just come out and say it (as admittedly you did later), but couching it in some concern for a fictional character's back pain just seems disingenuous.
Wait, so because promotional Olympic sprays show the characters involved in Olympic activities they typically wouldn't be doing you figure that Mei's spray, and only Mei's spray does not actually depict her body type and it's "still open for interpretation?" What?
Lol what the hell is that nonsense? Word of God did state otherwise in a picture of Mei playing table tennis, and as they say a picture is worth a thousand words. Why would they need to come out and even address this? They don't address pharmercy, genecy, or mercy76. nor do they comment on people thinking Lucio has robot legs or Phara is just a head in a body. Blizzard takes care of what they show and put into their game world so i'm sure this spray of Mei is legit as any" Word of God" Plus i always consider Mei "thick"and this picture only supports that for me
Source
Source
See if this was just anime. we would have had everyone's 3 measurements already ;p
WaffleTaco
Wants to outlaw technological innovation.
You make a fair point about Junkrat. I also would probably say that yes, my main point is that it's perverted. My thing is that I have known girls with bigger boobs and they do tend to have back problems, but I will probably avoiding using that type of remark when talking about a fictional character.
Royal Rainbow
Member
Are the sprays even considered canon? My interpretation of the summer games stuff is that it was kind of creating a universe where all the heroes were athletes of some kind. Like a fun kind of "What if...?". If Mei was a p-rofessional athlete she would probably be in shape. It doesn't necassarily mean she is in the canon of the game.
That's just how it seemed to me. I mean what is or isn't considered cannon is kind of foggy in a game where there can be multiple of the same people fighting against eachother. It kind of seems like nothing that's actually in the game is necassarily cannon. That's only the comics and stuff.
That's just how it seemed to me. I mean what is or isn't considered cannon is kind of foggy in a game where there can be multiple of the same people fighting against eachother. It kind of seems like nothing that's actually in the game is necassarily cannon. That's only the comics and stuff.
So.. wheres the Winston X Tracer? Tracton? Wincer?
a little something to get things moving along
hmm this kinda makes sense i can get behind that
a little something to get things moving along
hmm this kinda makes sense i can get behind that
Why?