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[RazMaTaz]

The world we live in:

- Being naked at a beach is perfectly fine (Nude beaches)
- Wearing something that covers you up when swimming is forbidden (Burkini).

Seriously what kind of dumbass world do we live in where we now have to give people laws to what they wear. It goes to show how such little things such a piece of cloth can cause so much of an uproar. Special level of dumbasses this world contains.

 

[Condom]

I'm sure all those rightwingers are happy at these effective antiterrorism effeforts

 

[Kayhan]

What? I believe Swimming is actually encouraged in Islam.

I am obviously talking about the completely ridiculous idea that women have to go swimming fully clothed.

If men are getting upset about female skin at the beach those men can stay the fuck home and mind their own business.

 

[Audioboxer]

why can't they just use a wetsuit, why does it have to be a burkini?

Ask why Islamic women have to do anything. They get told.

Point though is it's not the French Governments place to tell people what they can and can't wear. With the caveat I mentioned above (unnecessary nudity).

The argument to be made here isn't about how hideous Islam is to women, but the principal of this being against a basic freedom (to wear what we want).

 

[Lime]

Other people decided for women what to wear.

It's some crazy bullshit how oppresion against women gets defended here becuase of a misunderstood idea of freedom of religion.

Reminds me on the stupid Erdogan "for the democracy!" defenders here.

And by deciding for women what to wear in this situation, you're doing the exact same thing that you're criticizing "other people" of doing - deciding for women what to wear

USA has never underwent a true seperation of Church and State

Many European Western countries have lived a long difficult history of abuse of power from the Church, the Clergy, the monarchy

Secularisarion during the 19th to the 20th Century was fundamental into transitionning into modern democracies

History is ugly, secularists don't want religion to ever return into politics because of the corruption and manipulation of the Church with power

What does the separation between State and Church have to be with what women wear on the beach?

 

[SirClinksAlot]

USA has never underwent a true seperation of Church and State

Many European Western countries have lived a long difficult history of abuse of power from the Church, the Clergy, the monarchy

Secularisarion during the 19th to the 20th Century was fundamental into transitionning into modern democracies

History is ugly, secularists don't want religion to ever return into politics because of the corruption and manipulation of the Church with power

Its fucking beachwear bro.

 

[shauntu]

I know you've probably heard it a million times and just choose to ignore it, but if you somehow weren't aware because you watch too much Fox News, some women choose to wear head scarves and burkinis. Maybe you don't think women are capable of making choices for themselves, but I personally have no problem with someone choosing to wear a swimsuit they prefer.

Women shouldn't be forced to wear them and they shouldn't be banned from wearing them. Simple.

Well said.

 

[mnz]

Utter poppycock. I'm more secular than 99% of the French and this is nothing more than anti-religion bigotry. Rooted in Christian culture no less.

More like the culture that fought hard to get chistianity out of its state.

 

[faridmon]

Other people decided for women what to wear.

It's some crazy bullshit how oppresion against women gets defended here becuase of a misunderstood idea of freedom of religion.

Reminds me on the stupid Erdogan "for the democracy!" defenders here.

I think anything I say will not change your mind so, lets just say I disagree with your views and opinions.

 

[echoshifting]

why can't they just use a wetsuit, why does it have to be a burkini?

Have you ever worn a wetsuit? They can become very uncomfortable when you're out of the water.

 

[Onaco]

Waiting for Trump to respond.

 

[PdotMichael]

And by deciding for women what to wear in this situation, you're doing the exact same thing that you're criticizing "other people" of doing - deciding for women what to wear

That doesn't make sense.

Banning oppressive things isn't oppressive.

 

[Jeels]

USA has never underwent a true seperation of Church and State

Many European Western countries have lived a long difficult history of abuse of power from the Church, the Clergy, the monarchy

Secularisarion during the 19th to the 20th Century was fundamental into transitionning into modern democracies

History is ugly, secularists don't want religion to ever return into politics because of the corruption and manipulation of the Church with power

I'll take the US' version of separation of church and state where religious minorities are protected over France's militant version.

Some posters in this thread have done a good job explaining the historical/cultural trends that have led to how France defines secularism, but that doesn't make it right.

That doesn't make sense.

Banning oppressive things isn't oppressive.

It isn't oppressive if she is more comfortable wearing it...Don't be dense and try to think about it from a different perspective instead of in the frame of religion.

 

[Bloody_Five]

Utter poppycock. I'm more secular than 99% of the French and this is nothing more than anti-religion bigotry. Rooted in Christian culture no less.

Why a country should automatically be ok with Islam?

 

[jakonovski]

More like the culture that fought hard to get chistianity out of its state.

All the "good and proper" behaviour portrayed by the French politicians here is just conforming to western Christian tradition. Fuck that.

Why a country should automatically be ok with Islam?

I don't know what you're talking about, but if you want to tell women what to wear, don't expect to get my respect.

 

[nilbog21]

People comparing this to wet suits are missing the point. if you have an elementary understanding of french history, you would know we have French philosophers to thank for our modern idea of secularism and the separation of church and state. One of the roles of the government since the French revolution (overthrow of the monarchy...) is to protect the public from the influences of religious institutions and to allow for freedom of thought, a cardinal value of French culture. Additionally, allowing a religious group to indulge in what is seen by many as patriarchal and religious oppression, in the public space of a country that has gone as far as to make illegal to wear any religious attire in some public spaces like schools, is seen by many as an affront to french culture and identity.

That being said, there is no law in France that justifies this ban. And it is for Muslims to confront their own oppressions and not the French courts. Asking the French courts to do will only exacerbate the problem and empower Muslim women to continue this tradition

Fucking France is such a shithole.

posts like this are allowed on this forum? Lol

 

[sphagnum]

That doesn't make sense.

Banning oppressive things isn't oppressive.

I suppose you'd be ok with banning black women from straightening their hair or nuns from wearing habits then?

 

[Mr. Giggles]

That doesn't make sense.

Banning oppressive things isn't oppressive.

So by that logic ban the whole religion.

Ban all religions in your country - why stack on oppressive after oppressive laws?

 

[Lime]

That doesn't make sense.

Banning oppressive things isn't oppressive.

Again, some women want to wear this as their swimwear. By telling them what to wear, you're oppressing them.

 

[mnz]

All the "good and proper" behaviour portrayed by the French politicians here is just conforming to western Christian tradition. Fuck that.

What does it have to do with christianity? I don't get it.

Feels like the opposite.

 

[massoluk]

Wow, what bull shit. I thought Burkini was pretty tasteful.

 

[JeTmAn81]

Backwards society is backwards. They actually want to punish people for being modest.

 

[shauntu]

This just highlights how ridiculous Islam is about women swimming.

A wetsuit would make more sense if you absolutely must cover up any hint of bare flesh.

The point is, these are fashionable. These didn't exist even 20 years ago. Female fashion designers came up with these and market them towards young fashion/trend following women.

 

[Lime]

I don't understand what separation between Church and State has to do with what you wear on the beach. Can the people somehow invoking secularism in this thread explain to me the connection?

 

[Sulik2]

Over or under five years until France straight up bans the muslim religion?

 

[PdotMichael]

I suppose you'd be ok with banning black women from straightening their hair or nuns from wearing habits then?

How many women getting burned alive for not straightening their hair or nuns stopping wearing habits?

 

[T-Rex.]

That doesn't make sense.

Banning oppressive things isn't oppressive.

Because you're assuming that all women are being forced to wear this and it's not out of choice for some. How is taking away the right for women to wear this, should they choose to do so, not oppressive?

 

[Cat Party]

I don't understand what separation between Church and State has to do with what you wear on the beach. Can the people somehow invoking secularism in this thread explain to me the connection?

Banning religious attire actually violates the separation of church and state.

 

[MIMIC]

And it begins.

This is absolutely revolting. This is no better than Trump's discriminatory rhetoric. They're effectively banning an entire group of people from the beach.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

I know you've probably heard it a million times and just choose to ignore it, but if you somehow weren't aware because you watch too much Fox News, some women choose to wear head scarves and burkinis. Maybe you don't think women are capable of making choices for themselves, but I personally have no problem with someone choosing to wear a swimsuit they prefer.

Women shouldn't be forced to wear them and they shouldn't be banned from wearing them. Simple.

the question though is how do you determine whether someone does so willingly or not especially with children. I don't agree with the banning but I also don't like parents enforcing/imprinting their religion on their kids, any religion.

 

[sphagnum]

How many women getting burned alive for not straightening their hair or nuns stopping wearing habits?

How many women in France are getting burned alive for not wearing burkinis?

You're dodging my question.

 

[Stinkles]

Symbols of Islamic Extremism?

They actually use that as their reasoning?

The ban is ridiculous but so is the (actual) burqa. However my objection to (certain branches of) Islam treating women as property and men as rapists is dwarfed by the idiocy of this rule.

The burqa is a relatively new, resurgent form of conservatism that is backward. But the burquini is more like the much more reasonable and common hijab.

Preventing Muslim women from swimming is disgraceful however.

 

[jakonovski]

What does it have to do with christianity? I don't get it.

Feels like the opposite.

The patriarchal culture that thinks it's ok to tell women what to wear, and indeed seeks to target women even in cases where it's a complete red herring to the real issue (like here). Where do you think it comes from?

Feeling threatened by a strange religion. Like it were a false god. But if you're a secularist, why do you care about the particulars of someone's magical sky pixie? I sure don't.

 

[Jeels]

How many women getting burned alive for not straightening their hair or nuns stopping wearing habits?

Please tell us about all the women in France getting burned alive for not wearing a burqa.

Edit: You know what, nevermind. As the other poster said, you are dodging...

 

[Tiberius]

Over or under five years until France straight up bans the muslim religion?

Muslim religion no, but salafism yes and it would be a great thing to fight endoctrination of the youth

 

[IvanJ]

I just came here to see what a burkini is...And it looks really OK, I really don't see the need for a ban. Maybe the mayor of Cannes should come to a Bosnian beach

 

[Bloody_Five]

I suppose you'd be ok with banning black women from straightening their hair or nuns from wearing habits then?

You touch on two different, yet important things.

-Straightening your hair is a fashion statement
Covering your hair with a veil or skin with burkini is a religious statement.
It says : a holy book claims that women should be "modest in their appearance" in order not to tempt men. For a country that believes in equality between men and women, this is should not be ok.

-Nuns are tolerated
France is a Christian country.
Its history is christian and for many centuries, France was know as the catholic church eldest daughter. Why should it not fight for its beliefs and say that Islam is not ok?
Muslim countries such as Saudi Arabia, Quatar or Iran have no problem fighting for their beliefs and trying to impose them on others.

 

[RazMaTaz]

Just to put this into perspective:

Muslim countries i.e. turkey, Dubai, Qatar etc have no problems with such clothing

A non muslim country i.e. France has enforced a law for it

Let that register with yourselves

 

[Mr. Giggles]

The ban is ridiculous but so is the (actual) burqa. However my objection to Islam treating women as property and men as rapists is dwarfed by the idiocy of this rule.

The burqa is a relatively new, resurgent form of conservatism that is backward. But the burquini is more like the much more reasonable and common hijab.

Preventing Muslim women from swimming is disgraceful however.

Thank you.

 

[Succinct Verbosity]

This is the dumbest shit. Focus on something that's actually important instead of populist posturing to gain political capital.

 

[RibMan]

Excellent decision. More innocent people should suffer for the actions of the guilty.

 

[Jeels]

Muslim countries such as Saudi Arabia, Quatar or Iran have no problem fighting for their beliefs and trying to impose them on others.

Are you saying Europe should stoop to the lows of Saudi Arabia?

Whelp, I've read it all. Time to pack it up, haha

 

[Condom]

How many women getting burned alive for not straightening their hair or nuns stopping wearing habits?

What the fuck are you even talking about?

Also hilarious to have people use secularism as an argument when A this has nothing to do with secularism and B we're talking about a country that has a big Catholic population that fights against things like gay marriage

 

[Audioboxer]

Just to put this into perspective:

Muslim countries i.e. turkey, Dubai, Qatar etc have no problems with such clothing

A non muslim country i.e. France has enforced a law for it

Let that register with yourselves

Even although I'm fighting against this that is a stupid comparison. Turkey isn't too bad though.

In some places in those countries try wearing a typical bikinni and seeing how you get on. Pretty sure you can get jail time or at least arrested for showing skin.

France is in the wrong here but I wouldn't use even more oppressive locations to prove a point.

 

[sphagnum]

You touch on two different, yet important things.

-Straightening your hair is a fashion statement
Covering your hair with a veil or skin with burkini is a religious statement.
It says : a holy book claims that women should be "modest in their appearance" in order not to tempt men. For a country that believes in equality between men and women, this is should not be ok.

Black women straightening their hair largely stems from oppressive white beauty standards that say that natural black hair is unkempt or unclean.

-Nuns are tolerated
France is a Christian country.
It's history is christian and for many centuries, France was know as the catholic church eldest daughter. Why should it not fight for its beliefs and say that Islam is not ok?
Muslim countries such as Saudi Arabia, Quatar or Iran have no problem fighting for their beliefs and trying to impose them on others.

So again, here, we see that this is about cultural Christianity and not a commitment to freedom.

 

[Mr. Giggles]

Are you saying Europe should stoop to the lows of Saudi Arabia?

Whelp, I've read it all. Time to pack it up, haha

Its gonna be a crazy thread. Buckle up.

 

[ebullientprism]

I kinda feel bad for women who are basically forced to wear one and now they cant even go out to a beach to have a nice day.

 

[Bloody_Five]

Are you saying Europe should stoop to the lows of Saudi Arabia?

Whelp, I've read it all. Time to pack it up, haha

I am saying that we should be proud of having educated our women enough so they don't have to put up with such non sense.

 

[Walpurgis]

Wow. I can't believe that this is happening in France of all places.

 

[PdotMichael]

How many women in France are getting burned alive for not wearing burkinis?

You're dodging my question.

What question?

Your two examples aren't even close being somehow related to the opression of such muslim women.