Support NeoGAF

[David Ricardo]

Telling women what they can and cannot wear is paternal misogyny, yes.

That's exactly what islam does. And that's what french law is trying to protect them from by baning the burkini.

 

[Tiberius]

No it's not.
You won't find pork in a kosher store in Paris, so what the fuss ?
And they have their own separate time for jewish women in some paris pools.

It have nothing to do with secularism as defined by 1905 law of separation of church and state. The 1905 law is about public institutions, not the people using them or private market.

A kasher store is a specialized store, not a convenience store, there was a public lease by the "hlm" organism for this store.
It was a public action to give people in a poor neighbourhood a grocery store
It was own by fran prix and sold to a man who stealthly change it to a halal store


The separate hours for jewish women in some paris pools is not normal and discriminatory

 

[Mael]

That's exactly what islam does. And that's what french law is trying to protect them from by baning the burkini.

That's not French law.
It hasn't been voted by the Assemblée and is not part of the Official Journal, there's no application decree, hasn't been ratified by the President after having been vetted by the Constitutional Council.
It's a decree by Mayors with a hardon for hating anything muslims that doesn't have at least a 7 digit bank account.

 

[Htown]

That's exactly what islam does. And that's what french law is trying to protect them from by baning the burkini.

I think we can be more honest about the reasons behind this than that, don't you?

 

[Reeks]

That's exactly what islam does. And that's what french law is trying to protect them from by baning the burkini.

So the best way to protect women from being told what they can and cannot wear is to tell them what they cannot wear. Jeez why didn't it make sense to me before?

 

[The Doc]

If believing that freedom and equality means freedom and equality is crazy, then yes, I'm absolutely insane. But justice should be blind and applied equally, and if you don't take that down to the fundamental origins of human behavior then its application is meaningless.






Again, if you think that believing it is the right of individuals to choose their own dress is an apologism for the hijab I won't counter it. But a hijab is a piece of clothing, and people with the right to liberty and the pursuit of their own happiness can wear whatever clothing they want for any reason that makes sense to them.


Someone quoted a male counterpart to that earlier in the thread, look for it. If it's not in the Qur'an then you should take it up with whoever posted it, but if you're trying to show a double standard as far as I can tell you've failed.

Still, that doesn't negate the fact that a free person has the right to choose their own guiding philosophy, and how much of that philosophy to adopt for themself. That includes religion.






You're wrong. Once again, liberty and the pursuit of one's own happiness are fundamental human rights. Choosing a philosophy to guide one's actions falls under the pursuit of happiness. If you don't believe that then you don't believe in freedom for all.

Youre repeating the same things , with the same words , over and over , man.

"Just a piece of clothing"
"Right to choose their philosophy"
And so on

Please say something new or our time here is pointless.

(And there isn't any mandatory "male conuterpart" of the hijab , obviously)

 

[Goon]

this is the old standard "apology" of the hijab. But the reality is:



And this applies just for women , end of story.

You are making it seem like there is only clothing rules for women, similar language is used on muslim men who do not cover up. Men can't wear clothing that goes below their ankles, or above their knees. They can't dress provocatively to attract the lust of women and they should cover their chests if they have the means so. Some muslims take it further and say that you are not allowed to show your arms unless it is necessary as well.

 

[Rest]

That's exactly what islam does. And that's what french law is trying to protect them from by baning the burkini.

So, let's just take a look at that:

"There are women who are oppressed by having their wardrobe options dictated to them, so we have to end that oppression by dictating to them what they can wear!"

Does that make any sense at all? If these mayors think there an infringement on these women's rights then they need to inform them of their rights and make sure they have the resources available to extricate themselves from an unjust environment. You don't end injustice with a different injustice.


These policies have not been put in place to ensure the liberty of a subjugated group of women, they've been put in place to subjugate a group of minorities.

 

[Rest]

Youre repeating the same things , with the same words , over and over , man.

"Just a piece of clothing"
"Right to choose their philosophy"
And so on

Please say something new or our time here is pointless.

(And there isn't any mandatory "male conuterpart" of the hijab , obviously)

New arguments are not needed to counter old fallacies.

 

[Tiberius]

You are making it seem like there is only clothing rules for women, similar language is used on muslim men who do not cover up. Men can't wear clothing that goes below their ankles, or above their knees. They can't dress provocatively to attract the lust of women and they should cover their chests if they have the means so. Some muslims take it further and say that you are not allowed to show your arms unless it is necessary as well.

Far away to see this on men

 

[Elchele]

I think we can be more honest about the reasons behind this than that, don't you?

I think it's a very aggressive, and probably not the better way, to try and force muslim people to adapt to western culture. Christianism has been adapting for ages now, if we want to accept muslims in our culture, they should adapt and embrace a bit of the secularism of our societies.

Like it or not, islam is a problem just as any other extremist religion/political party/etc is. Governments need to create a more moderate version of the religion in order for people to be muslim and still be fully integrated in our culture.

Far away to see this on men

 

[Mael]

Far away to see this on men

How can you even tell there's one or two men pictured here.

Hint :

Spoiler

Ultimately that's why this attire has been banned

 

[Reeks]

What about wetsuits with a headcap? My friend wears one because it helps keep her hair in place while surfing. Isn't that practically the same thing?

 

[Mael]

What about wetsuits with a headcap? My friend wears one because it helps keep her hair in place while surfing. Isn't that practically the same thing?

Considering the mayors haven't banned wetsuits and other swimming attire, I'll let you guess.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

What about wetsuits with a headcap? My friend wears one because it helps keep her hair in place while surfing. Isn't that practically the same thing?

No because the point of the burkini (i.e. why the burkini was invented even though wetsuits already existed) is to hide all feminine traits, unlike the skintight wetsuit which shows all dem curves and whatnot.

 

[Rest]

I think it's a very aggressive, and probably not the better way, to try and force muslim people to adapt to western culture. Christianism has been adapting for ages now, if we want to accept muslims in our culture, they should adapt and embrace a bit of the secularism of our societies.

Like it or not, islam is a problem just as any other extremist religion/political party/etc is. Governments need to create a more moderate version of the religion in order for people to be muslim and still be fully integrated in our culture.

Islam is not an extremist religion, Islam is a religion with extremists, just like any other. There is no need for a more moderate form of Islam because it already exists. I'm confident that if you made an effort to meet some Muslims you'd find that they're probably reasonably accepting of French customs, even those that do not choose to adopt them for themselves.

Taking away people's rights for acting foreign isn't going to endear them to the culture which you want them to become more like. In fact, such attempts at suppression usually have the exact opposite of the desired effect.

 

[Reeks]

Considering the mayors haven't banned wetsuits and other swimming attire, I'll let you guess.

What's the difference? A skirt?

 

[Mael]

What's the difference? A skirt?

That and the name.
If they called that by any other name like 'skirtsuit' it wouldn't be banned at all.
There's actual swimwear for women with a skirt and I doubt that's banned anywhere.

they were asking for it anyway I mean all black? Cannes and these cities are places where black isn't the preferred color anyway

Spoiler

I'm saying it's a place full of racists

.

No because the point of the burkini (i.e. why the burkini was invented even though wetsuits already existed) is to hide all feminine traits, unlike the skintight wetsuit which shows all dem curves and whatnot.

I'm going to bill you my next repair on my sarcasm detector.

 

[F1Fan]

France should just go ahead and ban all religions and be done with it. It's sad to see that in 2016 we have millions of people who believe in a fairy tale. People who change what they eat, wear or drink, just because some idiot wrote it in a book thousands of years ago.

Same goes for all religions. Religions have done nothing but hold back humanity since it's inception, thousands of wars and millions lives lost due to a fairy tale.

I can't imagine how dumb someone has to be, to believe in a god/religion

 

[Mael]

France should just go ahead and ban all religions and be done with it. It's sad to see that in 2016 we have millions of people who believe in a fairy tale. People who change what they eat, wear or drink, just because some idiot wrote it in a book thousands of years ago.

Same goes for all religions. Religions have done nothing but hold back humanity since it's inception, thousands of wars and millions lives lost due to a fairy tale.

I can't imagine how dumb someone has to be, to believe in a god/religion

You're cute if you think the people pushing for this ban have an issue with any other religion but Islam.
You probably would have to run through them to enforce an anti catholic rule these days.

 

[Tiberius]

You're cute if you think the people pushing for this ban have an issue with any other religion but Islam.
You probably would have to run through them to enforce an anti catholic rule these days.

You know that mayors banning the burkini are not all from the right, there's socialists and communists too

 

[Mael]

You know that mayors banning the burkini are not all from the right, there's socialists and communists too

Only communists would have no problem with stripping catholicism from France these days.
Socialists are a little less shy about their support than the right these days.
And you do know what we say in France?
"The difference between a mainstream politician from Right or Left is one of opportunity and circumstance".
And none of them would dare touch anything touching related to any transgression done by someone of Jewish confession (like that Jewish hate group the far right can't shut up about).

When you know the ties between the parties that are supposed (PS/Fn for example) to hate each others you can't help but laugh at the theatre.

 

[F1Fan]

You're cute if you think the people pushing for this ban have an issue with any other religion but Islam.
You probably would have to run through them to enforce an anti catholic rule these days.

Of course it does target Islam, I never said that it didn't. I suggest you read my post again.

All this argument 15 pages in, for again stupid ass religions and laws.

It's 2016, it's time to stop believing in fairy tales.

 

[Mael]

Of course it does target Islam, I never said that it didn't. I suggest you read my post again.

All this argument 15 pages in, for again stupid ass religions and laws.

It's 2016, it's time to stop believing in fairy tales.

That's the issue, by the Constitution this decree is treating some citizens differently from others.
That is something deeply anticonstitutional (one of the longest french word btw).
Under French law you absolutely cannot treat someone differntly based on gender, religion, sexual preferrence, skin color, etc...

 

[Lamel]

That's exactly what islam does. And that's what french law is trying to protect them from by baning the burkini.

The irony is lost on you.

There's a clear conflict going on between western culture and islamist culture. If a country feels they should start to take actions to insert their muslim population more into western culture, and away from extremist stone age religion, then I think they are in all their right to do so.

If people don't like it, they can always move to another country.

You ignored my last post to you, but why do you think the "burkini" is islamist and extreme? It's basically a hijab swimsuit. Have you interacted with any muslim women that wear a hijab? They aren't "extreme" dude...Women who choose to wear the hijab can perfectly be a part of western society; in fact they do, in a lot of western countries. I don't know why french people are so riled up about it.

 

[Reeks]

All this argument 15 pages in, for again stupid ass religions and laws.

It's 2016, it's time to stop believing in fairy tales.

As an atheist, I'd like to say that atheists who patronize people who believe in 'god' deeply disappoint me. Thinking your belief structure is better than other peoples' is exactly what the religions you hate do and it's hypocritical.

 

[David Ricardo]

That's not French law.
It hasn't been voted by the Assemblée and is not part of the Official Journal, there's no application decree, hasn't been ratified by the President after having been vetted by the Constitutional Council.
It's a decree by Mayors with a hardon for hating anything muslims that doesn't have at least a 7 digit bank account.

I stand corrected then.

I think we can be more honest about the reasons behind this than that, don't you?

Racism, Xenophobia and Mayors not wanting minorities to enjoy life. You like that better?

So the best way to protect women from being told what they can and cannot wear is to tell them what they cannot wear. Jeez why didn't it make sense to me before?

The burkini exists only because women in Islam are discriminated and are forced to cover their whole body so only their husband can see their beauty. That's not freedom to me. All religions who discriminate women (and here we can include catholicism, judaism and a lot more) should be reformed so they treat both genders equal or banned. In the civilized world, law should be above religion.

So, let's just take a look at that:

"There are women who are oppressed by having their wardrobe options dictated to them, so we have to end that oppression by dictating to them what they can wear!"

Does that make any sense at all? If these mayors think there an infringement on these women's rights then they need to inform them of their rights and make sure they have the resources available to extricate themselves from an unjust environment. You don't end injustice with a different injustice.


These policies have not been put in place to ensure the liberty of a subjugated group of women, they've been put in place to subjugate a group of minorities.

Women don't wear burkini because they like it or because it's confortable at 90+ degrees in the beach. They wear it because Islam forces them to wear it. It's a form of women discrimination. Men can dress however they want. That's not right.

 

[Mael]

Do we know that women are forced to wear burkinis? or is it projecting, assumptions or something?

 

[F1Fan]

As an atheist, I'd like to say that atheists who patronize people who believe in 'god' deeply disappoint me. Thinking your belief structure is better than other peoples' is exactly what the religions you hate do and it's hypocritical.

Of course my believe structure is better. It is a proven fact that it is. If we all followed religion to the extreme as some nutcases, we would still be living in the stone age. Like many places around the world today.

Religion has never done any good ever. Religion is the number one tool that has divided mankind since the begining.

 

[Mael]

Of course my believe structure is better. It is a proven fact that it is. If we all followed religion to the extreme as some nutcases, we would still be living in the stone age. Like many places around the world today.

Religion has never done any good ever. Religion is the number one tool that has divided mankind since the begining.

Well at least now we know who has been asleep during history class.

 

[David Ricardo]

Do we know that women are forced to wear burkinis? or is it projecting, assumptions or something?

Well, we don't know it as a hard cold fact, but it's called burkini for a reason. I don't think any woman would wear it unless her religion forced her to.

 

[Rest]

Women don't wear burkini because they like it or because it's confortable at 90+ degrees in the beach. They wear it because Islam forces them to wear it. It's a form of women discrimination. Men can dress however they want. That's not right.

What are you basing this on? How many women in burkinis have you spoken to about the subject? Can you site an interview where a woman wearing a burkini in a western country has stated that someone is forcing her to wear it and that she wishes she could dress a different way?

I'm willing to wager a guess that you are making assumptions about people whom you do not know anything about. Many western women who convert to Islam wear hijabs by choice not because anyone is forcing them to, as they are unmarried andhave no Muslim family members to influence them. They make this choice because it suits them.

If you live in a western country you have no place to assume that the clothes that someone else wears are being forced upon them, because in free countries all people (including women) have the right to choose what they wear and paths of recourse against anyone who would try to forcefully undermine their self determination.

If these cities have problems with women being subjugated then they need to enact education programs to make sure these women know their rights.

Of course my believe structure is better. It is a proven fact that it is. If we all followed religion to the extreme as some nutcases, we would still be living in the stone age. Like many places around the world today.

Religion has never done any good ever. Religion is the number one tool that has divided mankind since the begining.

I don't know what to say. Is this a joke post?

 

[F1Fan]

Well at least now we know who has been asleep during history class.

Nice to see that you nicely ignored the last sentence. I guess it was too hard to argue against it.

Dont bother replying, thats all the time i can spare for people and their fairy tales.

 

[Reeks]

Of course my believe structure is better. It is a proven fact that it is.

Sounds eerily familiar...

 

[excelsiorlef]

That's exactly what islam does. And that's what french law is trying to protect them from by baning the burkini.

How does it protect them?

Explain it

 

[Jonm1010]

Of course my believe structure is better. It is a proven fact that it is. If we all followed religion to the extreme as some nutcases, we would still be living in the stone age. Like many places around the world today.

Religion has never done any good ever. Religion is the number one tool that has divided mankind since the begining.

As an atheist, this is just stupid. Mostly because it is just factually incorrect and moreover a really intellectually lazy argument that you should feel embarrassed spouting so arrogantly.

Despite some of the high profile examples often mentioned in high school history class, the Catholic Church and Islamic countries have very direct contributions to improving scientific knowledge.

For instance 8th to 13th century Islam saw tons of scientific and mathematic advancement in their region.

Religion I would argue is historically and presently a more negative influence then positive but lets not spout ignorance as fact here.

 

[David Ricardo]

What are you basing this on? How many women in burkinis have you spoken to about the subject? Can you site an interview where a woman wearing a burkini in a western country has stated that someone is forcing her to wear it and that she wishes she could dress a different way?

I'm willing to wager a guess that you are making assumptions about people whom you do not know anything about. Many western women who convert to Islam wear hijabs by choice not because anyone is forcing them to, as they are unmarried andhave no Muslim family members to influence them. They make this choice because it suits them.

If you live in a western country you have no place to assume that the clothes that someone else wears are being forced upon them, because in free countries all people (including women) have the right to choose what they wear and paths of recourse against anyone who would try to forcefully undermine their self determination.

If these cities have problems with women being subjugated then they need to enact education programs to make sure these women know their rights.

I didn't say that a person forced them, I said Islam forces them. Islam tells them to keep their beauty to their husband and close family, and hide it from everyone else.

Obviously they do it because they want, because they think that makes god happy, and their families happy, and if they don't then god will punish them in some way.

We are talking about Islam now, but I know about Opus Dei, which is an catholic organization that also treats women as slaves, serving the priests, doing their laundry, cooking for them, etc... Because supposedly god said so. That should be looked into also.

 

[Rest]

I didn't say that a person forced them, I said Islam forces them. Islam tells them to keep their beauty to their husband and close family, and hide it from everyone else.

Obviously they do it because they want, because they think that makes god happy, and their families happy, and if they don't then god will punish them in some way.

We are talking about Islam now, but I know about Opus Dei, which is an catholic organization that also treats women as slaves, serving the priests, doing their laundry, cooking for them, etc... Because supposedly god said so. That should be looked into also.

It's not your place to decide what is best for other people. Everyone has the right to self determine, and how they inform their choices isn't up to you.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Thierry Migoule, the head of Municipal Services in Cannes added further insult to injury:

[The ban is about] ostentatious clothing which refers to an allegiance to terrorist movements which are at war with us.

http://indy100.independent.co.uk/ar...he-more-nonmuslims-are-buying-it--WyzWQIfxpPb

Let's just stop pretending these people are doing it to "protect" women

 

[Rest]

http://indy100.independent.co.uk/ar...he-more-nonmuslims-are-buying-it--WyzWQIfxpPb

Let's just stop pretending these people are doing it to "protect" women

Jeeze. No shame.

 

[David Ricardo]

How does it protect them?

Explain it

Banning the outfit their religion imposes them. Maybe they feel inferior to men, and they think they should be treated worse, and they should be wrapped up in neoprene like a burrito, but the law won't let them do that to themselves.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Banning the outfit their religion imposes them. Maybe they feel inferior to men, and they think they should be treated worse, and they should be wrapped up in neoprene like a burrito, but the law won't let them do that to themselves.

So it literally is we know what's best for you paternalism....



Anyway

The Lebanese-born designer, who lives in Australia, created several different lines which have sold in their thousands all over the world for the past eight years.

Speaking to indy100, Zanetti estimates that some 40 per cent of her clientele are not actually Muslim.

Almost half of burkini buyers aren't even Muslim.

Zanetti also told indy100:

The burkini swimsuit was never a type of swimsuit to symbolise a Muslim woman. I took away the traditional veil which did symbolise a Muslim woman, and replaced it with a hood type of top to blend in and integrate within Australian Culture and lifestyle. It was also meant to be worn by all women no matter what race, religion, shape, colour and for what ever reason.


Women have the choice to choose what they want to wear or not and I don’t think anyone should take this away from them

http://indy100.independent.co.uk/ar...he-more-nonmuslims-are-buying-it--WyzWQIfxpPb

 

[David Ricardo]

It's not your place to decide what is best for other people. Everyone has the right to self determine, and how they inform their choices isn't up to you.

I can't decide for you, and you can't decide for me. But the law (or the mayor or whatever) decides for everyone. You can't ride a motorcycle in Europe without wearing a helmet. Maybe I want to ride without a helmet and feeling the wind in my face seems like a fair retribution for increasing my chances of getting hurt in case of an accident. But the government decided it's best for me to always wear a helmet. And if I don't I will be stopped by the police, get a ticket, etc. Fair enough. This is the same.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I can't decide for you, and you can't decide for me. But the law (or the mayor or whatever) decides for everyone. You can't ride a motorcycle in Europe without wearing a helmet. Maybe I want to ride without a helmet and feeling the wind in my face seems like a fair retribution for increasing my chances of getting hurt in case of an accident. But the government decided it's best for me to always wear a helmet. And if I don't I will be stopped by the police, get a ticket, etc. Fair enough. This is the same.

Helmets are a publuc safety issue a hijab swimsuit is not... this is so disingenuous it's transparent

 

[Jacobi]

So it literally is we know what's best for you paternalism....



Anyway




http://indy100.independent.co.uk/ar...he-more-nonmuslims-are-buying-it--WyzWQIfxpPb

The only source is the designer itself, who doesn't use any facts for this ridiculous claim. Just an estimate. By the way, there isn't even any photo of a non-muslim looking woman wearing a burkini. Not in this article, or others that also just quote Zanetti.

 

[Rest]

I can't decide for you, and you can't decide for me. But the law (or the mayor or whatever) decides for everyone. You can't ride a motorcycle in Europe without wearing a helmet. Maybe I want to ride without a helmet and feeling the wind in my face seems like a fair retribution for increasing my chances of getting hurt in case of an accident. But the government decided it's best for me to always wear a helmet. And if I don't I will be stopped by the police, get a ticket, etc. Fair enough. This is the same.

No it's not. The resultant harm of crashing a motorcycle without a helmet if demonstrably worse than that which occurs with one. The government can make laws which restrict behavior when it can be shown that it is actually in the interest of the greater good. A motorcycle helmet's primary purpose is as a piece of safety equipment, not a fashion item. The hypothetical harm caused by wearing a burkini is just that, hypothetical. You can't restrict rights based on assumptions.

 

[Mael]

Well, we don't know it as a hard cold fact, but it's called burkini for a reason. I don't think any woman would wear it unless her religion forced her to.

Considering it wasn't that hard to find women in France wanting to wear burqa or niqab despite there being no male forcing them (flawed reading of the Curan still counts).
I doubt we can't find any women willing to wear this.

Nice to see that you nicely ignored the last sentence. I guess it was too hard to argue against it.

Dont bother replying, thats all the time i can spare for people and their fairy tales.

Don't bother looking at stuffs like ceremonial burial, anything related to arts or science from the 13th century or so, the actual college/university system used in most western country, actual diplomacy and stuffs like that.
It's ok it's less important than the smell of your tongue considering how far your head is up your place where the sun doesn't shine.

 

[Reeks]

The only source is the designer itself, who doesn't use any facts for this ridiculous claim. Just an estimate. By the way, there isn't even any photo of a non-muslim looking woman wearing a burkini. Not in this article, or others that also just quote Zanetti.

What does a non-muslim looking woman wearing a burkini look like?

 

[Jacobi]

What does a non-muslim looking woman wearing a burkini look like?

Probably not middle-eastern

 

[Reeks]

Probably not middle-eastern

Please tell me that's sarcasm.