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[Darklor01]

Do you still think Neo is coming this year despite GTS being delayed ?

Yes. I believe a published delaying a game is a separate thing from the release of hardware.

Edit: I get why you're asking though.

 

[Gator86]

I think a lot of people are assuming we're more likely to see higher resolutions than higher framerates. Time will tell.

Also, there sure are a hell of a lot of Spiderman avatars...

I'd be so disappointed if devs go for 4k, which virtually no one uses, versus higher framerates. Obviously, it's not that simple a trade off, but you get the idea.

 

[RoboPlato]

Then people will see video of it and fall in love with it.

it just repeats

I think it really depends on the proportions of the different layers. Get it wrong and it'll look bad, get it right and it'll be really cool. The finish on it would factor in as well.

 

[Dovahking]

Yes. What does GTS have to do with anything? Software gets delayed all of the time. There'll be plenty of games to take advantage of neo when it is released

Yes but they are not exclusives,though. GTS was the perfect AAA exclusive to showcase the systems power.

 

[i-Lo]

If true, given what Peter Moore said, are the specs even final let alone actual devkits?

 

[xenorevlis]

Do you still think Neo is coming this year despite GTS being delayed ?

Seems likely, only because offering a Slim and then a Neo next year would impact sales of PS4 overall. Better to announce both as two options of the same platform (similar to phones that run same OS, just larger screen / more GPU power for one of the models). Plus, people keep wondering why there aren't any bundles being shown off for this holiday, even though many are expected (FFXV, for example). Would be a great opportunity to make Neo bundles.

 

[SolidSnakex]

If true, given what Peter Moore said, are the specs even final let alone actual devkits?

Didn't some report say that final kits would go out next month?

 

[myps2]

FoxconnArtist: Embedded Power Supply

 

[GravityInsanity]

PS4 Slim this year
Playstation VR this year

and now...

PS4 Neo this year?

 

[Darklor01]

If true, given what Peter Moore said, are the specs even final let alone actual devkits?

What exactly did he say? I missed it.

Outside of my curiosity on that, I think the safest way to answer this would be to say that would depend on whether you believe the system is coming out within the next month or two, coming out early 2017, later and whether you believe that any date outside or the next two months is the result of a delay.

If coming September/October or even maybe November, it might be hard to change much when if it is in full production as hinted by the Foxconn worker. The later it is stated to release, the more opportunity for changes to specs.

 

[Dovahking]

Seems likely, only because offering a Slim and then a Neo next year would impact sales of PS4 overall. Better to announce both as two options of the same platform (similar to phones that run same OS, just larger screen / more GPU power for one of the models). Plus, people keep wondering why there aren't any bundles being shown off for this holiday, even though many are expected (FFXV, for example). Would be a great opportunity to make Neo bundles.

Yeah, that makes sense.

 

[Rellik]

FoxconnArtist: Embedded Power Supply

They better have worked out cooling then.

 

[ProximoGamer]

I am looking forward to the announcement. I wonder if the reveal of Project Scorpio forced Sony to go back to the drawing board and look at the specs of the "Neo".

This is a big change for the gaming console market and we will need to see how it pans out.

 

[RoboPlato]

I am looking forward to the announcement. I wonder if the reveal of Project Scorpio forced Sony to go back to the drawing board and look at the specs of the "Neo".

This is a big change for the gaming console market and we will need to see how it pans out.

There might be some upclocks but I doubt it's drastically changed. Sony will have a year advantage, a larger install base that can move their games up to the new console, a larger selection of upgraded games from releasing earlier, and will be able to drop price once Scorpio hits.

If we do see better specs, I'm guessing the max will be 2.4Ghz CPU, 5tflop GPU, and ~250Gb/s RAM bandwidth. I'd be really surprised if it was anything more than that. Hell, I'll be surprised if even a couple of those happen.

 

[xenorevlis]

They better have worked out cooling then.

Considering the APU die is probably using smaller process, the heat / power consumption will be improved even with higher clock speed, and if the Slim runs quieter (based on the videos out there) than OG PS4, the extra 3cm are probably a combination of improved cooling and space for more internal power conversion.

There might be some upclocks but I doubt it's drastically changed. Sony will have a year advantage, a larger install base that can move their games up to the new console, a larger selection of upgraded games from releasing earlier, and will be able to drop price once Scorpio hits.

If we do see better specs, I'm guessing the max will be 2.4Ghz CPU, 5tflop GPU, and ~250Gb/s RAM bandwidth. I'd be really surprised if it was anything more than that. Hell, I'll be surprised if even a couple of those happen.

This is very much in line with what I'm thinking, though the alternate CPU side is probable, and that would allow over 5TF (slightly) if the weight / size are accurate from Foxconn worker.

 

[Mediking]

PS4 Slim this year
Playstation VR this year

and now...

PS4 Neo this year?

A PS4 Neo bundle with Horizon already installed and ready to play would be awesome.

 

[mulac]

Why still no leaks of the Neo if its being announced next week? I'd at the very least expect the standard hazy camera-phone shot of the hardware.

 

[NotSmartEnough]

I'd be so disappointed if devs go for 4k, which virtually no one uses, versus higher framerates. Obviously, it's not that simple a trade off, but you get the idea.

Resolution is more important than framerate.

They are some games/genres that prioritise 60fps, but they are the exception. As has been stated countless times before, more hardware FLOPS or MIPS or whatever won't change the way that studios approach the balance. The only thing that would make any difference is if consumers voted with their wallets.

Everyone can just give up on the idea that Neo is going to result in a move from 1080p/30 to 1080p/60.

The choices will be increased resolution, better effects, and then way down the priority list will be framerate.

Not enough people care; if they did it would be a priority now.

 

[Darklor01]

This is very much in line with what I'm thinking, though the alternate CPU side is probable, and that would allow over 5TF (slightly) if the weight / size are accurate from Foxconn worker.

http://vrworld.com/2016/05/11/amd-confirms-sony-playstation-neo-based-zen-polaris/

If this older article is accurate in the following, what you're saying might be possible:

The only mandate the company received was to keep the hardware changes invisible to the game developers, but that was also changed when Polaris 10 delivered a substantial performance improvement over the original hardware. The new 14nm FinFET APU consists out of eight x86 ‘Zen Lite’ LP cores at 2.1 GHz (they’re not Jaguar cores, as previously rumored) and a Polaris GPU, operating on 15-20% faster clock than the original PS4.

The article dates back to mid May.

 

[Inuhanyou]

I know Neo is expected to use Polaris, but is there any chance the new Slim, if it's moving to 14nm, would also use the Polaris architecture with the same number of compute units and clock speeds? It would allow them to use less power and would mean Slim and Neo in PS4 mode would be identical, rather than Neo potentially showing performance gains due to architectural improvements. It could also mean they could use some bad Neo yields to make Slim GPUs, right?

I fully admit the above might be nonsense because I don't know very much about the differences between how PC GPUs and console GPUs are made apart from consoles being SoCs (whatever that means) and semi-custom.

for 100% compatibility, i doubt they would be using polaris in the slim. They probably just shrunk the APU they were using in the PS4 down to 14nm. That's what MS did.

It would be too complicated because polaris's GPU is more efficient, so they would not be able to have Slim and OGPS4 run the same even at the sameclocks.

 

[Deleted member 465307]

for 100% compatibility, i doubt they would be using polaris in the slim. They probably just shrunk the APU they were using in the PS4 down to 14nm. That's what MS did.

It would be too complicated because polaris's GPU is more efficient, so they would not be able to have Slim and OGPS4 run the same even at the sameclocks.

Yeah, that makes sense. I realized in my last post I got oddly mixed up about the PS4 and Neo mode things, so my whole thing about running games the same as Neo made zero sense.

 

[NotSmartEnough]

Why still no leaks of the Neo if its being announced next week? I'd at the very least expect the standard hazy camera-phone shot of the hardware.

It's so black it's impossible to photograph using standard cameras. It just looks like a rhombus-shaped void.

Or it may be that shipments haven't reached distribution centres yet, and Sony have some really punitive NDAs in place with Foxconn. How many photos of the slim PS4 got leaked before someone got hold of one?

 

[Inuhanyou]

Yeah, that makes sense. But then how would Neo handle it?

Sony patented an actual engineered solution for mimicking OG PS4 hardware 1:1 with the base mode and NEO modes of the PSNEO, with the intent of not breaking any of the previous game software.

http://vrworld.com/2016/05/11/amd-confirms-sony-playstation-neo-based-zen-polaris/

If this older article is accurate in the following, what you're saying might be possible:


The article dates back to mid May.

What does this say beyond listing the specs of the console?

 

[Darklor01]

What does this say beyond listing the specs of the console?

I'm not sure I understand the question.

 

[-ImaginaryInsider]

If we do see better specs, I'm guessing the max will be 2.4Ghz CPU, 5tflop GPU, and ~250Gb/s RAM bandwidth. I'd be really surprised if it was anything more than that. Hell, I'll be surprised if even a couple of those happen.

Agreed, that's the absolute ceiling for a bump.

More and/or better ram would be a surprise, as would a bump to 5 teraflops. I think the CPU getting a modest tweak is the most likely candidate right now.

5.5 teraflops is a "secret sauce" fever dream.

 

[Inuhanyou]

I'm not sure I understand the question.

He said that he would not be surprised to see significant upclocks in the retail unit, and you posted that link and quote with the implication that he was onto something. But that quote just mentions the leaked specs.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

http://vrworld.com/2016/05/11/amd-confirms-sony-playstation-neo-based-zen-polaris/

If this older article is accurate in the following, what you're saying might be possible:


The article dates back to mid May.

That article loses points with this part:

At the same time, we managed to learn that SONY ran into a roadblock with their original PlayStation 4 plans. Just like all the previous consoles (PSX to PSOne, PS2, PS3), the plan was to re-do the silicon with a ‘simple’ die shrink, moving its APU and GPU combination from 28nm to 14nm. While this move was ‘easy’ in the past – you pay for the tapeout and NRE (Non-Recurring Engineering), neither Microsoft nor Sony were ready to pay for the cost of moving from a planar transistor (28nm) to a FinFET transistor design (14nm).

We now know that is completely inaccurate with One S and PS4 slim which calls into question the rest of the article. On top of that I believe Lisa Su confirmed in one of her investor Q&A's that both MS and Sony's contracts included the node shrinks.

 

[Darklor01]

He said that he would not be surprised to see significant upclocks in the retail unit, and you posted that link and quote with the implication that he was onto something. But that quote just mentions the leaked specs.

Ah, I see. Here is what I was thinking, though maybe the link to the previous post may be a stretch.. Or, maybe not related if I misunderstand things...


Eurogamer, I think, have stated that the cores are Jaguar vs. the article I linked stating otherwise. If the cores are indeed not Jaguar, the idea for me is that the CPU can do more in performance than expected and can be upclocked more than a Jaguar core, and they can still make adjustments there depending on where they are in the production process.

Am I completely off in my line of thought there? If so, I do sincerely apologize.

 

[serversurfer]

Utilizing checkerboard rendering to hit 4k will need a base res well above 1080p. I assume that if you're using a 1080p display it'll downscale instead of doing the reconstruction.

Ubi were using quarter-res with 2xMSAA, so for a 4K target, that actually would be a 1080p base, yes.

I'm just not fond of the precedent it creates. If Neo is a success, then this busts open the doors for more nonsense like exclusive software and core features for future "mid-generation" hardware.

This fear is really unjustified though, because it's not in Sony's or anyone else's interest to push forcibly you towards new hardware. It makes zero difference to them whether you buy CoD for your PS4, PS4.5, or PS5, so there's no reason to withhold stuff from older hardware for any reason other than the hardware simply being unable to support it. Since PS5 is just a continuation of the same ecosystem running the same software, there's no rush to shift users en masse to the new hardware; you established the healthy user base for your platform six years ago, and now you're just growing it.

It flies in the face of why I like consoles in the first place: generational parity.

Not really. You'll still have that too within a given hardware iteration. Iterations will simply come more often than they have in the past, and you'll be able to upgrade more often, less often, or similarly often, at your discretion.

Figure this would be useful for some folks:

In FY2015, Sony shipped 17.7 million PS4s.

For FY2016, Sony is predicting 20 million PS4s.

In Q1FY2016, the PS4 shipped 3.5 million, up 500k from 2015.

So with these numbers, by March 2017, I think it'd a safe prediction to say that the OG PS4 plus slim will account for 18.5-19 million sales of the 20 million prediction.

That should give a good indication as to what Neo is expected to do, and how tough it's going to be for Scorpio next year.

This is what I'm saying. Sony aren't looking for a 4M+ launch like PS4 had. This is a premium model targeted at aficionados, and it won't become the mainstream offering for another three years, when PS5 is introduced as the new premium offering.

A glorified 'premium' mid gen refresh in place of a single traditional slim SKU, which they also happen to be releasing.

I like how you haven't let being wrong about the slim strategy slow you down in the slightest. It's like doing backflips while running at a full sprint. Simply spectacular.

 

[Inuhanyou]

That article loses points with this part:

We now know that is completely inaccurate with One S and PS4 slim which calls into question the rest of the article. On top of that I believe Lisa Su confirmed in one of her investor Q&A's that both MS and Sony's contracts included the node shrinks.

Yeah, that's pretty damning for that particular article's claims.

A few months ago, i was basing my arguments on a slim not being in the cards on that article infact, because it said that it would be redundant for MS and Sony to pay for traditional die shrinks, but we know that isn't the case now.


If we're talking upclocks, i can see the CPU getting a bump to 2.4 GHZ and the GPU staying the same as leaked(4.2tflops). 2.4 is the ceiling for Jaguar before the CPU becomes unstable, since it was only designed for lower clocks and higher core count. And i personally think 4.2tflops is actually far more than neccesary for a console like this, so i'd say focus their priorities on the CPU.

 

[Darklor01]

That article loses points with this part:



We now know that is completely inaccurate with One S and PS4 slim which calls into question the rest of the article. On top of that I believe Lisa Su confirmed in one of her investor Q&A's that both MS and Sony's contracts included the node shrinks.

So, the article may be completely false then? I was basing some of my thought on whether this was accurate since other later sources say the cores are indeed Jaguar.

 

[Raiden1018]

Any new news? Did Nerdleaks post anything?

 

[Inuhanyou]

Eurogamer, I think, have stated that the cores are Jaguar vs. the article I linked stating otherwise. If the cores are indeed not Jaguar, the idea for me is that the CPU can do more in performance than expected and can be upclocked more than a Jaguar core, and they can still make adjustments there depending on where they are in the production process.

Am I completely off in my line of thought there? If so, I do sincerely apologize.

The only other CPU it could be is Puma, which is Jaguar with the ability to overclock much higher than Jaguar before tapping out.

But we have no current indications of Jaguar being replaced by Puma in the PS4 NEO.

 

[Inuhanyou]

I like how you haven't let being wrong about the slim strategy slow you down in the slightest. It's like doing backflips while running at a full sprint. Simply spectacular.

Well, nobody expected a in the first place surfer, or rather, there were no real legitimate sources for that information. I based my predictions on there being no slim on what i thought at the time, if i'm wrong, i'm not above admitting it you know?

 

[Darklor01]

The only other CPU it could be is Puma, which is Jaguar with the ability to overclock much higher than Jaguar before tapping out.

But we have no current indications of Jaguar being replaced by Puma in the PS4 NEO.

None of the articles I read actually went on to say Puma, but rather this custom Zen Lite custom CPU concept.

Another article, in the middle seemed to agree with the VRWorld one, so that's throwing me, though it may be simply quoting/sourcing directly from the first article:
http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/2...utely-necessary-for-vr-slams-ps4s-performance

Instead, Sony and AMD hammered out an agreement in which Sony would adopt the 14nm successor to Jaguar as well as a GPU based on the Polaris architecture. According to Valich, the PS4K isn’t actually based on Jaguar at all and will instead leverage four “Zen Lite” CPU cores. We’ll have to wait and see if this proves true; we haven’t previously heard of a Zen Lite CPU core. But it’s at least theoretically possible that AMD built a version of its upcoming architecture for Sony rather than going to the trouble of taking Jaguar down to 14nm FinFET. Everyone agrees that the GPU is based on Polaris, so there’s no argument there.

What do you think?

Edit: odd, this article says four cores, the VR World one says eight.

 

[ShadowKingpin]

What do you think?

If Zen Lite is used, I am even more excited for this console. Jaguar needs to be ditched.

Aren't AMD Eight Cores really four physical?

 

[Saberus]

None of the articles I read actually went on to say Puma, but rather this custom Zen Lite custom CPU concept.

Another article, in the middle seemed to agree with the VRWorld one, so that's throwing me, though it may be simply quoting/sourcing directly from the first article:
http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/2...utely-necessary-for-vr-slams-ps4s-performance



What do you think?

Edit: odd, this article says four cores, the VR World one says eight.

Two threads per core?

 

[Inuhanyou]

None of the articles I read actually went on to say Puma, but rather this custom Zen Lite custom CPU concept.

Another article, in the middle seemed to agree with the VRWorld one, so that's throwing me, though it may be simply quoting/sourcing directly from the first article:
http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/2...utely-necessary-for-vr-slams-ps4s-performance



What do you think?

Edit: odd, this article says four cores, the VR World one says eight.

No zen this year, its fake

 

[Darklor01]

Two threads per core?

I honestly don't know enough computing tech to know how that works.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

So, the article may be completely false then? I was basing some of my thought on whether this was accurate since other later sources say the cores are indeed Jaguar.

I wouldn't put it so bluntly but yes. Bare in mind that the article is from May and subsequent info has come to light that proves the info wrong. We've had the Neo doc leak and now two slims that weren't known about at the time.

Like Inuhanyou I didn't think there would be a slim PS4 simply because I thought the cost and logistics of Sony putting the time, money and effort into three hardware launches close together seemed unlikely. Though I only expect Neo to have the leaked specs I won't rule out any higher specs because of what happened above.

 

[RoboPlato]

Ubi were using quarter-res with 2xMSAA, so for a 4K target, that actually would be a 1080p base, yes.

That was just Ubi's method and what we're likely to see if Siege gets a patch. DF theorized that Sony's method is possibly based on a technique Valve talked about in a presentation that doesn't involve MSAA. To hit 4k that method would need a base res around 1500p.

 

[Darklor01]

I wouldn't put it so bluntly but yes. Bare in mind that the article is from May and subsequent info has come to light that proves the info wrong. We've had the Neo doc leak and now two slims that weren't known about at the time.

Like Inuhanyou I didn't think there would be a slim PS4 simply because I thought the cost and logistics of Sony putting the time, money and effort into three hardware launches close together seemed unlikely. Though I only expect Neo to have the leaked specs I won't rule out any higher specs because of what happened above.

Well, I have two people here who clearly understand what they're talking about vs. two articles based on information from the first article.. I just wonder how both of them state concrete information from AMD without being accurate.. But.. I guess that stuff happens.

 

[StrongBlackVine]

I wouldn't put it so bluntly but yes. Bare in mind that the article is from May and subsequent info has come to light that proves the info wrong. We've had the Neo doc leak and now two slims that weren't known about at the time.

Like Inuhanyou I didn't think there would be a slim PS4 simply because I thought the cost and logistics of Sony putting the time, money and effort into three hardware launches close together seemed unlikely. Though I only expect Neo to have the leaked specs I won't rule out any higher specs because of what happened above.

So you are not completely unreasonable. Slim was written off as garbage rumours just the like possibility of Neo being more powerul is right now. We really don't know what is going to happen.

 

[RoboPlato]

So you are not completely unreasonable. Slim was written off as garbage rumours just like possibility of Neo being more powerul. We really don't know what is going to happen.

Count me in as one of those that was surprised about the Slim with Neo coming.

 

[xenorevlis]

get rid of the black for glossy white and i'd be in love.

one more week...

Just saw this. Hm, I'll let someone else do it. I'm about to record a small video on the PS4 Neo and throw it up on the channel. Don't want to work on mockups anymore

 

[StrongBlackVine]

Count me in as one of those that was surprised about the Slim with Neo coming.

I believed there would be a Slim from the start. If both models were going to co-exist why Sony would abandon their strategy of making it cheaper to manufacture and thus cheaper to sell?

 

[GravityInsanity]

Hey guys we're on The Know.

 

[Elios83]

So you are not completely unreasonable. Slim was written off as garbage rumours just the like possibility of Neo being more powerul is right now. We really don't know what is going to happen.

Slim made total sense (at least to me) since when Andrew House said that Neo was just a complement to the current PS4. If they were serious about keeping both models on the market they needed to have a long term plan to cut the price on the basic model as well. That was only possible through a redesign to cut manufacturing costs.
Then Microsoft announced their Slim with a 16nm APU and the deal was sealed, if AMD was shrinking the 2013 Xbox APU to 16nm it was obvious that Sony had the chance to do the same with theirs given how they are both tied to what AMD can provide.

But yeah there was a lot of resistance against the idea of a Slim PS4 and many were wrong.
About Neo I wouldn't rule out higher final clock frequencies but a new design with different cores....no...this is a PS4 and they need to keep full PS4 compatibility easy to achieve.

 

[duhmetree]

The only other CPU it could be is Puma, which is Jaguar with the ability to overclock much higher than Jaguar before tapping out.

But we have no current indications of Jaguar being replaced by Puma in the PS4 NEO.

From what I've read, Puma is not HSA compliant.

Jaguar or a modified custom CPU (zen-lite) are more likely the options.

 

[Celcius]

Hey guys we're on The Know.

Never heard of the show but that was cool