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Pokémon Sun & Moon | Info and speculation thread
- Thread starter Galava
- Start date
This comes from the fact the S&M OST has fewer tracks I believe.
Weird (lack of) logic always irritates me, no matter what the subject is. I think it's worth arguing over, so excuse me for having too much time on my hands.
Which I GREATLY prefer to barely having any time for myself, as would usually be the case.
Dark Orchid
Member
It was the listing for the CD itself. Now, while this is technically true, X/Y's soundtrack had a bunch of PR Video tracks that took up almost an entire CD despite being about 15 seconds long. It's quite possible that S/M has a lot more route, town, and battle themes.
Ah ok. Didn't realize OST list was out.
That's too bad it won't have as much. Although from what we've heard so far the soundtrack looks to be just as good as gen 6 so I shouldn't complain.
Gladion theme already looking great.
Edit: Orchird is right though. I do remember XY having many of those really short tracks.
Geminosity
Member
All these people talking about the best starter...
If only Delphox hadn't ruined it
Yeah, Delphox is pretty bad isn't it? ;D
Cloud Strife
Member
It will. Seems anti-gen to not have a major leak prior to release
It's a lot better than Braixen, the concept is magic and the last evolution of that being an old witch/warlock makes perfect sense.
Not75Drops
Member
I think that was announced when the soundtrack was, which was around a week or two ago. It's also in this EDGE interview. 15 of the tracks or supposedly from XY as well. The XY trainer battle music from the last Japanese trailer likely confirms it. I wonder who will have that music in game.
So yeah, XY had 212 tracks, so if anyone was hoping for a second region for some reason, I wouldn't hold my breath. Sure, the XY OST had bonus tracks from Origins, but every Pokemon soundtrack has new bonus tracks, so it's nothing new.
Sparkedglory
Member
But it's not bad logic though...in my opinion your logic makes less sense. Everyone has good points, but alolan forms being entirely new Pokemon makes less sense. Either way I'll drop it
We have never seen changes as extremely as this before, and with the conscious effort to change the formula with Sun and Moon, it seems really silly to stay so obtuse about it when they clearly aren't.
Logic that allows for absolutely no nuance where it can, and rightly should, be applied is bad logic. That specific example of a Pokemon undergoing an extremely minor aesthetic change yet being classified as a new Pokemon due to dex number while Alolan forms with all their unique traits are not is exactly why it's faulty logic. It allows for stupid shit that is rightly not given its own entry yet disallows substantial change to be acknowledged.
Edit: I blame everyone else for not posting inbetween my two posts, totally not my fault at all.
Sorry for the double post
Zen_Arcade
Banned
Haven't we already confirmed that these Alolan variants aren't getting new Dex numbers? Because if so I don't even see what your debate is here. If it has been confirmed, then even with all of the changes in the formula, this has very clearly been kept consistent, much like it was with Megas.
So I don't really see how "But they're changing things up!" is an argument in this case if we already know that this hasn't been changed within the game where they're making all of these changes to the formula.
Should they have to get a new dex number to be considered new? I'm saying no, it's kind of unnecessary.
Little late to the discussion but i'm still skeptical of that leak being "confirmed" by the fanart signing given the source it's coming from. As for the Alolan forms, we'll probably find out on Tuesday as to whether they get separate entries or the same one as their non-Alolan counterparts.
ScraftyDevil
Banned
To be honest I love all of the new 'mons this gen so it was hard to be critical, but this is what I came up with:
On a different note, how many single-stagers do you folks think we'll see in Gen 7? Gen 6 only had five (Hawlucha, Furfrou, Dedenne, Klefki and Carbink) but there are already nine new Pokemon I suspect of having no evolutionary line (Passimian, Oranguru, Drampa, Tortonator, Wishiwashi, Crabrawler, Oriocorio, Mimikyu and Comfey).
I hope at least some of those get (pre-)evolutions in the game proper, cuz a generation full of single-stagers is kind of boring in my opinion.
On a different note, how many single-stagers do you folks think we'll see in Gen 7? Gen 6 only had five (Hawlucha, Furfrou, Dedenne, Klefki and Carbink) but there are already nine new Pokemon I suspect of having no evolutionary line (Passimian, Oranguru, Drampa, Tortonator, Wishiwashi, Crabrawler, Oriocorio, Mimikyu and Comfey).
I hope at least some of those get (pre-)evolutions in the game proper, cuz a generation full of single-stagers is kind of boring in my opinion.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
And I'm saying yes, because it stays consistent with not only how Pokemon have been categorized since the games inception, and not only how they're continuing to be categorized within the game, but it even stays consistent with how we catagorize real life animals.
We already know that they don't get new dex numbers. They get new flavor text, but that's to be expected. We're arguing about whether or not having a new dex number means that they cannot be considered new Pokemon.
Exterminieren
Banned
I think this is kind of splitting hairs, and is totally subjective anyway.
For me personally, Alolan forms are sufficiently distinct from the originals to count as something separate; not new Pokémon, but much closer than any similar effort has come in the past. When I look back on Gen VII, I'll probably count them thanks to the sheer difference many of them have; I don't doubt they were no easier to implement than any given new Pokémon, and many of them will probably have very little mechanical resemblance to their original forms. Not everyone has to agree, although I think comparing them to temporary, in-battle forms is a little disingenuous- there's a clear order of magnitude difference.
For me personally, Alolan forms are sufficiently distinct from the originals to count as something separate; not new Pokémon, but much closer than any similar effort has come in the past. When I look back on Gen VII, I'll probably count them thanks to the sheer difference many of them have; I don't doubt they were no easier to implement than any given new Pokémon, and many of them will probably have very little mechanical resemblance to their original forms. Not everyone has to agree, although I think comparing them to temporary, in-battle forms is a little disingenuous- there's a clear order of magnitude difference.
wait,dex is a Pokemon now?
i know rotom inside it,but can fight or used in fighting?
Geminosity
Member
Mayhaps but it ended up looking more like a bag-lady. Intent and execution don't always end up in the same place
Also by that logic braixen as a magical witch girl makes perfect sense :3
Honestly, my snark at the design aside, they did Delphox no favours by following up Braixen's highly animated repertoire with Delphox's much more muted motion. Also, because they did go with Braixen and the magical girl route, a wisened wizard doesn't really make as good a follow up if you're hoping to appeal to the same people. It's kind of like the reaction you get from the quad pokemon fans whenever an evo chain goes bipedal
I can see Crabrawler getting a pre-evolution and Mimikyu getting an evolution. The rest are probably single stagers.
And I will continue thinking that dex number being the only real defining trait of a new Pokemon is silly, weird, and pointlessly obtuse.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
I mean, you're free to think that, but it's a lot more consistent and logical than your method and yours is obviously not backed up with how the developers feel and have programmed their game or how scientists in real life catagorize animals, which is the closest analog we have to anything outside the world of Pokemon.
A 'magical girl' is a young witch in this case, Delphox is the older one. It fits fine.Mayhaps but it ended up looking more like a bag-lady. Intent and execution don't always end up in the same place
Also by that logic braixen as a magical witch girl makes perfect sense :3
Honestly, my snark at the design aside, they did Delphox no favours by following up Braixen's highly animated repertoire with Delphox's much more muted motion. Also, because they did go with Braixen and the magical girl route, a wisened wizard doesn't really make as good a follow up if you're hoping to appeal to the same people. It's kind of like the reaction you get from the quad pokemon fans whenever an evo chain goes bipedal
ScraftyDevil
Banned
Hurm, that still leaves us with two more single-stagers than in XY. Hopefully SM has an altogether larger cast of new Pokemon to make for it.
I really dislike trying to apply real world systems to Pokemon, but are you saying that the pokedex isn't arranged by using the most basic taxonomic unit and instead grouping genera or families? I understand your point of Alolan Grimer being classified as a sub-species of Grimer and thus not being allowed it's own individual entry. I just think you used an extremely poor or misguided example.
KPCOFG are all abstractions--that are often in dispute--to group discreet individual organisms, i.e. species, e.g. the animal. My original post was to correct the misconception that crocodiles are not independently classified into species. Yes, they are grouped into a family of similar organisms, but eventually in the hierarchy all animals are grouped together and then all eukaryotes are grouped together.
Not75Drops
Member
Well they might be taking a different approach this time. Kind of like there's already more of Pokemon of certain types revealed for Sun/Moon than there was for the entirety of XY (Electric and Bug).
Crabrawler isn't getting a pre-evolution unless it happens very early. We've already seen Hala with one against the player's level 15 Popplio. It's reveal trailer also showed it facing off against various VGC threats, which isn't a confirmation, but it would have made sense to show its evolution if it had one.
Passimian and Oranguru are version counterparts, and I wouldn't be surprised if they both have a pre-evolution, similar to how Noibat wasn't revealed before release for XY.
According to that boxart, Drampa and Tortunator are both single stage. Was that box confirmed real?
Wishiwashi's ability makes an evolution seem extremely unlikely.
The others are bit up in the air, but I think they're all single stage. I don't see Comfey getting an evolution. Oricorio ties into the islands, and potentially the guardians, so I don't see it getting one either. While Mimikyu seems to have its own gimmick.
And when the developers come out and say "The only way we see new Pokemon when working on games is when they are given a new pokedex number", I'll be sure to agree with you. Until then, it's an extremely crappy distinction to make, and it's not one that has been clearly expressed by the creators.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
I think that the Pokedex is pretty clearly supposed to be cataloguing by family. That's why things like Gastrodon, who have visual differences, or Pokemon like Oricorio who literally have different typings depending on where they drink sap from are all under the same number and then sub categorized from there.
They don't have to come out and say it. It's been the logic within the games since Red/Blue. All you have to do is pay attention to why the Pokedex exists within the game you're playing. You obviously just want to ignore that and make up your own definition. Which is fine. But don't get mad and call the logic the developers put in place crappy just because you don't agree with it. Especially when your line of logic dredges up far more questions then the reasoning used within the game raises.
Geminosity
Member
only if you ignore pretty much everything I mentioned
If Delphox had actually looked like a witch I might've been able to agree. I think this is overdesigned but it feels like a more logical direction to follow-up to Braixen to me if you maybe toned it down a little but kept the witch hat hair and stuff:
Current Delphox doesn't look like a witch or even a grown-up magical girl. It looks like a really awful attempt at a wizard, that loses all the interesting aspects that braixen built (like the twig in the tail, the whirling stick and whatnot.) without replacing them with anything particularly interesting.
If you like Delphox then good on you, but it would appear you'd be in the minority and by their actions regarding the fenniken line it appears Ninty and Pokemon Company agree the line's appeal is in the first 2 forms
Yet, if we insist on taking real world analogues, dog Pokemon are not all given one entry. I don't think there is any evidence for assuming the pokedex isn't using the most basic taxonomic unit to describe Pokemon. In fact I would argue there are no taxonomic units to categorize pokemon outside of the disjunct and independent dex number, typing, and evolution chart.
Baron von Loathsome
Member
Say what you will about Delphox, but Braixen's design is incredibly tacky.
So why is that when they are very clearly moving in a direction for Sun and Moon in many regards, that THAT specific tradition is the only one set in stone? Who actually declared that, because it sure as hell wasn't anyone at Gamefreak or TPC. If that's the logic that they're using, yes I still think it is incredibly shitty, but that'll be their word as the creators so I'd have to go with it. Random people on Gaf declaring being something to be a certain way doesn't mean shit to me, nor should it. I don't think it's a good justification, and I'm going to fight it.
I don't like that entire line. I just don't think Delphox is out of place.only if you ignore pretty much everything I mentioned
If Delphox had actually looked like a witch I might've been able to agree. I think this is overdesigned but it feels like a more logical direction to follow-up to Braixen to me if you maybe toned it down a little but kept the witch hat hair and stuff:
Current Delphox doesn't look like a witch or even a grown-up magical girl. It looks like a really awful attempt at a wizard, that loses all the interesting aspects that braixen built (like the twig in the tail, the whirling stick and whatnot.) without replacing them with anything particularly interesting.
If you like Delphox then good on you, but it would appear you'd be in the minority and by their actions regarding the fenniken line it appears Ninty and Pokemon Company agree the line's appeal is in the first 2 forms
Also Starters only get the push when they're either "cool" or "cute" for merchandise potential and what not.
Hence Chespin's evos getting fuckall.
MrCookiepants
Member
Alola forms (and megas) count as new Pokemon to me. New typing, new abilities, new designs. What more do you want?
Zen_Arcade
Banned
While this is true, dogs are used as a descriptor of classification in many instances. So it's still used, but just not as prominently as in the real world.
I think there is evidence of the fact that it goes past basic taxonomic units ever since things like Megas and Alolan variants have been sub catagorized within a Pokemons entry. Obviously it's not a 1/1 analog to reality, but you can pretty clearly see their logic and how they're trying to adapt it to their own systems of cataloging.
Yes it is the people at Game Freak. They're the ones who kept the method of classification within the game. It's set in stone because in a game that is obviously making various changes to the formula, this is one of the things the people at Game Freak did not feel the need to change. Obviously you need them to come out and say it for some reason, which is asinine and unnecessary considering all you have to do is think about who makes the decisions for what does and does not go into the game. This is like saying that you don't think Fire types are weak to Water types simply because you've never seen one of the developers come out and say it outside of the game.
I don't know how you can argue that it's not the people at TPC or Game Freak who want this method in place when they themselves are the ones who have created it and wanted to keep it for their new entry.
People on GAF didn't create the idea of a Pokedex or how it works, we are literally just relaying how the Pokedex works in the game, which was a decision made by the developers.
I don't have an opposition to considering them old pokemon or new pokemon, but what I would like to see implemented is an independent dex entry description for megas and formes.
I love Alola forms, but I don't think the debate over whether they're a new 'mon or not is particularly relevant. This beautiful, fresh sonuvagun who now has the keys to the kingdom is clearly running the show differently than his predecessors.
We'll get more and more of these questions about how new elements being introduced fit into old paradigms, but in the end those questions are losing the forest for the tress.
The series is in a state of flux right now-and for those who have been wanting a shakeup for the past fifteen years, it's a jubilant revelation <3
We'll get more and more of these questions about how new elements being introduced fit into old paradigms, but in the end those questions are losing the forest for the tress.
The series is in a state of flux right now-and for those who have been wanting a shakeup for the past fifteen years, it's a jubilant revelation <3
Geminosity
Member
I don't see what's tacky about it. If you don't like the magical girl / lil witch thing then fine, but tacky? I don't see it, sorry.
Heh, fair enough. I disagree that delphox fits at the end of the line, but I will at least agree it makes more sense than Dragonite does at the end of it's chain
I just hope that Popplio's line fares better. The 2D leaks of the final look promising but we'll have to see how it translates to 3D and how it animates
Exterminieren
Banned
Real World Analogue: All dogs, wolves, and foxes, etc. are within the same taxonomic family, Canidae.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
I understand that, and that's why I said it's obviously not a 1/1 recreation. That doesn't mean you can't see their line of thinking to how they catagorize and how it emulates real life catagorization of animals.
GiantBreadbug
Member
Alolan Pokémon and Megas are "new" Pokémon. But they aren't new evolutionary lines, which is what I think most people mean by "new Pokémon."
So no they're not new species, but they are new subspecies. Which means whether or not you call them new Pokémon depends on whether you think that distinction is for new evolutionary lines.
So no they're not new species, but they are new subspecies. Which means whether or not you call them new Pokémon depends on whether you think that distinction is for new evolutionary lines.
It doesn't emulate real world categorization of organisms. There's no really a rhyme or reason to what makes the cut and what doesn't.
Plusle and Minum have distinct entries. Re-purposed old pokemon don't because they didn't. That's their reasoning.
I think that, if asked, the people at Game Freak and TPC would not say that dex number is the only determining factor of whether or not something is a new Pokemon, and that they take drastic changes such as Alolan forms into consideration. Clearly they have never come out and said that, and I'd argue that they haven't needed to because they've never done something this significant to existing Pokemon. I think that "the dex is the way it is and will always be that way, period" argument is incredibly flimsy when new features like this emerge, so until they explicitly say otherwise, I'm on the "Alolans are new Pokemon" train and will continue to point out how weirdly obtuse the argument against that is.
Vermillion
Banned
only if you ignore pretty much everything I mentioned
If Delphox had actually looked like a witch I might've been able to agree. I think this is overdesigned but it feels like a more logical direction to follow-up to Braixen to me if you maybe toned it down a little but kept the witch hat hair and stuff:
Current Delphox doesn't look like a witch or even a grown-up magical girl. It looks like a really awful attempt at a wizard, that loses all the interesting aspects that braixen built (like the twig in the tail, the whirling stick and whatnot.) without replacing them with anything particularly interesting.
If you like Delphox then good on you, but it would appear you'd be in the minority and by their actions regarding the fenniken line it appears Ninty and Pokemon Company agree the line's appeal is in the first 2 forms
I assume people hate Delphox because they liked Braixen a little too much. So I'm fine with being in the minority lel
Delphox is gdlk