My Beef with Summer Lesson
- Thread starter Dylan
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I'm having trouble relating to the OP because this game seems totally innocent. There is no sexual content in the game whatsoever.
It's more likely that this game will help virgins overcome their social anxiety in a safe environment than train sexual predators to act out their desires.
Is this really a bad thing that people should be ashamed of? Comparing the socially awkward with compulsive eaters and implying that they're creeps with perverted intentions is incredibly judgemental and reductionist. Craving human interaction is a perfectly normal human desire.
It's more likely that this game will help virgins overcome their social anxiety in a safe environment than train sexual predators to act out their desires.
Is this really a bad thing that people should be ashamed of? Comparing the socially awkward with compulsive eaters and implying that they're creeps with perverted intentions is incredibly judgemental and reductionist. Craving human interaction is a perfectly normal human desire.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Because now that visual examples are included people are trying to do some next level spinning to defend the game's content and intentions. As fucking if the devs at ANY point in development thought "hey, what if the main character was female, we certainly are not appealing solely to a male demographic with the marketing and style of this game, now animate her moving in closer and hold that eye contact while someone else finalizes the maid outfit, man, how weird would it be if people thought this game was for men specifically, certainly not, our intentions are completely pure."
Like this dude here. Trying to craft a whole new narrative since visual examples are undeniable.
A game teaching dudes that it's ok to make constant eye contact and lean in incredibly close to women is not much better than the grooming implications. If anything it would reinforce the anxiety once they realize that they shouldn't be taking social lessons from this sort of video game.
chillybright
Banned
Again your argument, and OP's whole premise boils down to the inability of separate fantasy from reality, and the presumption that others cannot do that either.
GAF may be the stronghold for progressive liberal left wing views about issues IN REAL LIFE, and the actions around young woman depicted in the game maybe inappropriate by many (including you) IN REAL LIFE. These are debatable at best, but the core fallacy in OP's essay is a 20-year-old argument that actions in video games should be judged by morals or even laws by real life standard. This is proven simply not true as shockingly people can actually distinguish real life from video games. And a lot of gaffers who may have strong liberal views about social and political issues, will defend not only this game, but also others because you cannot extend real life morals to games, VR, or even other medias.
I think that is where your confusion lies.
Yeah I thought OP committed thread suicide when I read that post. But clearly this thread is still going despite ridiculous premise.
Dragonslayer_023
Banned
No, another country doesn't need to change anything because you find them creepy or deplorable based on nothing other than your subjective Western values.
sechsterangriff
Member
You insist people are bullshiting when you're the one who hasn't played the game and talking out of his own ass. People have been trying to explain what the gameplay and interactions consist on. Well at least now you went through the work of searching for some gifs. Yes she places an earbud on your right year and you can listen to a song that plays only on your right ear. You don't lean on anyone. In fact you have to be still or the earbud may fall off.
Again no one is saying this is a teaching simulator. What most people are taking issue is with your (and others) analogies and references to "grooming" and "rape".
That's not a narrative, it's literally what sensei means.
Also, my female comment was more to point out how you're trying really hard to spin this older male teacher angle. Sorry, her headphone sharing and leaning in close seem far more like something she'd do with someone around her age, male or female.
These are the kinds of reactions that prevent necessary change. Japan has a well documented problem with underage girls getting taken advantage of just look at Vice's doc on the whole JK thing. Its good for a country to be excited about their youth etc. that Japan is but there is a lot of uncool stuff going on there. Its become normalized to ogle high school girls. Don't even get me started on the whole women above the age of 25 start to become undesirable problem they have.
Le sigh. I correct a single inaccuracy in your post while offering absolutely no comment on anything else and I'm spinning a narrative? I explained what the title of Sensei means and said literally nothing else on the subject. You really need to cool your heels and stop imaging things that aren't there.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Japan, needs,really big, changes, sooner than, later.
Dude it's not a long game, the entire game is on youtube, it's incredibly simple to make gifs. Yes, there were people itt making the argument that this was a teaching simulator and nothing else or that it's "tame." I didn't even search for those, I made them from playthroughs on youtube. Regardless of if you don't specifcally lean on the girl while listening, she's making eye contact, quite clearly, the subtext is there, there's no projecting going on, the devs knew what they were doing, the target Japanese audience knew what the devs were doing and indulged in it. Meanwhile we have the flimsiest excuses itt since "Well Quiet breathes through her skin."
The narrative is that we're supposed to believe that the intentions are completely pure on the laughably unlikely that we're playing as a woman in a game where the character model for the VR headset is very clear a male, from the country that really should never be given the benefit of the doubt with this sort of subject matter especially in video games. And that the devs didn't solely have a male audience in mind when making this game. It's funny how different the tone of a thread is when the duck is called a duck instead of a trailer thread.
What visual examples are there that the player is an authority figure?
Also you're not leaning into her private space, she leans into yours. The player looks very passive in this game
LordKasual
Banned
Actually no, I think the general Japanese populace will agree with him. It is not healthy at all. It's a symptom of a problem, just because it's happening in a different culture doesn't mean it isn't a problem.
Japan does not need westerners to tell them that otaku culture gets creepy as hell. Nobody in the real world is going to look at someone with a completely warped social outlook and call them normal, not over here nor in japan.
I find America's unhealthy obsession with murder simulation deplorable too TBH. It's a culture that glorifies and celebrates violence. Something needs to change over there.
You can hide games on your trophy list from public view, feel free to play it secretly if you want.
Crash Station
Member
Quick search gave me this, which has excerpts from a book like this:
There was another study about the rise of lolicon in the 70s leading to both decreased cases and decreased recidivism rates, but I can't find it. I'll post it if I do.
Edit: Oh actually, I think this book is it. It just didn't go into detail in the article I posted.
Not disagreeing.
Are things bad? Absolutely. Are they worse in this one aspect than pretty much anywhere else in the developed world. Absolutely not.
An industry that's illegal unless you're talking about simulated CP, which is disgusting if you're truly comparing that to actual real-life cases.
Even if beyond a shadow of a doubt it leads to less victims? You're talking in absolutes here when the conclusions are anything but while speculating on numbers rather than giving facts.
I understand why someone would be emotional on such a subject, but the gut reactions are no way to progress in this case. Sometimes it's better to cast emotion aside if it leads to less victims.
I'll agree on it taking so long to outlaw actual CP, but you realize the CPPA was considered unconstitutional and has since been struck down, right? The legality of such content in America is hazy, but probably closer to the legal side considering the existence of publishers like Mangagamer.
If you don't think the tone is insulting, I don't know what to tell you, but I apologize if I've misinterpreted your posts.
why can't people just let people enjoy the shit they like? IMO, this is fine, for all the fear of Otakudom, its tame as hell.
I will probably never play Summer Lesson...like ever. But come on. The rape analogies are a bit much, no?
all of this moral granstanding that goes on around these parts lately sucks (on both ends). You don't like it...doesn't make it objectively bad or not, definitely isn't cool to unintentionally or not call someone a closet pedo or rapist. It reminds me of the hate rap music got (and still gets) from many. Let people eat.
I feel like this place would be way more fun if people spent more time promoting the things they like rather than thread after thread of "I hate this thing and you should too". I would think by now people would realize it does nothing but get messy and the same back and fourths happening. Yeah yeah yeah, it is a discussion board..but how about we all try to promote the positive shit rather than constantly tearing down? I feel like this discussion would work better that way (although what was a positive thread did turn into shit when the "positive Japanese female design" thread happened...but I don't think that was created with the best intentions). As is, neither side is going to budge. One side will never see something like this as harmless. And another will never not see the "beef" as someone wanting it to get banned or whatever. So what are we even doing at this point? All it does is end up in the same game of Gotcha in which someone shows their whole ass, gets banned, and dog-pilling happens.
I will probably never play Summer Lesson...like ever. But come on. The rape analogies are a bit much, no?
all of this moral granstanding that goes on around these parts lately sucks (on both ends). You don't like it...doesn't make it objectively bad or not, definitely isn't cool to unintentionally or not call someone a closet pedo or rapist. It reminds me of the hate rap music got (and still gets) from many. Let people eat.
I feel like this place would be way more fun if people spent more time promoting the things they like rather than thread after thread of "I hate this thing and you should too". I would think by now people would realize it does nothing but get messy and the same back and fourths happening. Yeah yeah yeah, it is a discussion board..but how about we all try to promote the positive shit rather than constantly tearing down? I feel like this discussion would work better that way (although what was a positive thread did turn into shit when the "positive Japanese female design" thread happened...but I don't think that was created with the best intentions). As is, neither side is going to budge. One side will never see something like this as harmless. And another will never not see the "beef" as someone wanting it to get banned or whatever. So what are we even doing at this point? All it does is end up in the same game of Gotcha in which someone shows their whole ass, gets banned, and dog-pilling happens.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
"Sensei."
Being said near constantly.
You know how many games are advertised with non-lethal options these days? And open mission design where you don't have to kill anyone but the target. Quite a lot, there are also more non violent western games being made than ever before. Even God of War is trying to be less violent, GOD OF WAR! War is literally in the title and the demo was a total 180 and the story is that now Kratos is constantly keeping his anger in check and has a family and son in a peaceful albeit dangerous landscape. So while sexualization and objectification in Japan is absolutely stagnating and regressing, the portrayal of violence, (or lack there of), is absolutely changing in the western landscape. But ofc you can start a new thread on that subject instead of using false equivalence if you'd like.
Obviously no one should take literal social lessons from a video game, but being used to making eye contact with the opposite sex in VR could give them a small confidence boost when making eye contact with the opposite sex in real life.
sechsterangriff
Member
She actually closes her eyes while listening to the song. But anyway, if you're triggered by sharing an earphone and eye contact I honestly don't know what to say to you. Maybe I'm to dense to realize there's actually some type of implicit malice. Maybe I'm ironically becoming " to old for this shit".
Spirit of Jazz
Banned
I think the difference is people look at God of War and don't come away thinking it's acceptable behaviour. Where as people look as Summer Lesson and come away saying that it's totally innocent.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
In what way would near constant eye contact and invasions of personal space give you anything but the wrong idea of how to behave in social situations?
Did you just unironically use the term triggered? Also, not counting the fact that you contradicted yourself there, sharing a headphone and listening to music with someone you're supposed to be teaching, (who's also under age), is definitely creepy as hell and inappropriate.
I mean the Japanese audience seemed to realize what the intention was pretty quickly so instead of dense I'd say intellectually dishonest/disengenous. It's like, you know what the implication is.
At most you'd get people saying "It's god of war. And it's literally a fantasy game."
But then no one was inventing a narrative despite visual examples, someone was explaining the visual examples. Japan is very delicate about polite forms, so not like it sounds absurd.
There's constantly this talk about power dynamics, but so far I haven't seen much besides the player being able to nod or shake his head. That's not executing power.
B-B-Bomba!
Member
This thread needs a poll.
For now put me in the camp that finds the game sad and creepy. Simulating "that ticklish feeling when alone with underage girl!" just isn't something I can find any positive attributes for.
Materially the game itself is harmless, but I share the OP's confusion and disappointment with the gaming community at large. I think Japan has many issues with this stuff, and there it might have a diiferent context, but I wouldn't really know.
For now put me in the camp that finds the game sad and creepy. Simulating "that ticklish feeling when alone with underage girl!" just isn't something I can find any positive attributes for.
Materially the game itself is harmless, but I share the OP's confusion and disappointment with the gaming community at large. I think Japan has many issues with this stuff, and there it might have a diiferent context, but I wouldn't really know.
That's bollocks though. For every good example there's tens of thousands of people celebrating the latest fatalities in Mortal Kombat or the fact that you can kill dozens of henchmen in the London Heist in an even more realistic experience than ever before.
It's long been established that the medium of Games doesn't have any kind of moral compass. Should we consider and have a discussion about that? Absolutely.
in this case however people seem to be getting bent out of shape because the flimsy construct developers have put in place to facilitate this morally bankrupt action is unfamiliar and abhorrent to them without acknowledging this is what video games have done for decades for all kinds of illegal and morally bankrupt actions.
Some people are going to find doing some of those things fun, I don't feel like judging them for playing a game.
so what do you want?
For it to not exist? Not get localized?
i feel like people often stop at what they actually want in these threads.
i just want you guys to know i think youre all creepy
Neff
Member
Believe it or not many women are fine with eye contact, and if someone is clearly enjoying your company and you're courteous, clean and presentable, then close proximity often happens of its own mutual accord. And guess what? It doesn't have to be sexual, either.
If you think this game aims to fulfil dishonourable fantasies (and personally I'm really not seeing it), I'd say that displays more of a lack of trust on your part than any moral negligence on the part of the developer.
Being used to a virtual girl in their personal space could keep someone from choking up and making an ass of themselves when a real girl enters their personal space.
The way you are framing this game to sound like a harassment simulator is very disingenuous.
You've been told several times that the common use of sensei is "someone who is more knowledgeable in a subject", while possibly also being the same age as them, or younger. Her behavior corroborates that. If you feel that it's some sort of creeper position-of-power abuse to lock eyes and listen to music, that's all on you.
Crash Station
Member
God of War is a power fantasy. Summer Lesson is a social fantasy. What's the difference? That one is more likely to happen despite barely representing real social interactions?
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Mortal kombat certainly wasn't advertised at e3. Instead we got this incredibly tame DC game trailer instead. The latest GoW was overwhelmingly praised for the new tone and direction. People noted that not a single person was killed in the WD2 demo. Then we had games like Days Gone where the main enemy is zombies while the main enemy in Horizon is robots. Even COD is now set to scifi grappling hooks in the future which has no real life equivalents. The shit is summer lesson is almost still life in comparison. Same with London Heist, these things don't have realistic portrayals of violence and instead have been going farther and farther away from it.
Then start the thread.
It's not unfamiliar, this sort of shit has tons of real life connotations and equivalents. Both in Japan and in the west.
Ok?
Not in the way it's portrayed in summer lesson, if I were to address my students in that way they'd absolutely be uncomfortable. Why an adult dude is tutoring a girl alone in her room is beyond me but ofc that's part of the implication.
Look at those gifs on the last page dude. A duck...is a duck.
I mean people weren't even calling that DOA VR harassment simulator what it was so it's really not surprising to see a defense force for this creepy ass game.
Oh my god. Ok, seriously, stay away from teenagers if you legitimately think that being alone with an underage girl in her room and sharing headphones while making eye contact is ok behavior for a teacher. Just a reminder of how that's portrayed in the game btw.
About to load up Maya just to show peeps how far a rig has to be leaned forward to get that close to a FP camera. I like how the defense went from "the game is totes innocent" to "ok those gifs are pretty bad but hey, plot twist, what if you're not an older man, what if you're a woman?! Dun dun dun!!!"
-_-
Crash Station
Member
And you're well within your rights to feel that way.
So acknowledging that, where do we go from here?
Ok, I'll bite. Do you think that Japanese culture's view on women is okay?
Is it okay that women in Japan are hired by companies for the express purpose of the boss using them to play matchmaker so that the newly hired male employees will marry them and have less of a reason to leave said company?
Is it okay that women in Japan, feel social pressure to leave right after getting married? It is okay that they feel even more pressure upon having a child? To the point that companies will not offer promotions/upward mobility, in the hope that the woman will quit and become a stay at home mom?
Is it okay that the women in Japan that do stay single and do so of their own will, the men in the company feel sorry for them and they feel that the woman should feel embarrassed? That a women's worth in Japanese culture is commonly associated with which man chose to marry her? And that a woman's only dream can be to take care of her family and raise kids?
Or how about something like this? http://matome.naver.jp/odai/2147384561028197701
We see a stark contrast be the western strong, independent, political and angry females in the posters versus the Japanese ones were they seem to have to be cute, sweet, sexy, happy and falling in love with a man....
A country that follows Confucius with such teachings as; a woman should have no voice. Follow your husband once married, and once older, follow your son. Furthermore with respect elders a la Confucius; making the society prone to conservatism, which views change as a bad thing.
I could go on, but some point, something has to give and you have to say this is not right, change needs to happen. Subjective Western views have nothing to do with it. This country has little respect for human rights; look at the treatment of women, working conditions, etc.
sechsterangriff
Member
She makes eye contact before the music plays. Also, better call my 11th grade computer class teacher then. She was clearly taking advantage of me... * rolls eyes *
Again, no one is denying the potential and even likely target market for the game. What I'm taking issue is what your description of what the game actually is and plays. I'm saying the developers were actually really ingenious because the game can be completely innocuous or not depending on the player.
wait, what... It's not for lewd purposes or whatever? As someone who doesn't follow this game, what is it about then?
I had assumed it was that >_>
People here who are Day One or who know they are getting this game upon release, can I ask why or what you are most excited about?
So what about The Division, where there's some kind of flimsy excuse given for roaming round New York on a power trip where you get to shoot other dudes in the face.
Is there a non-lethal way to play Battlefield 1, one of the most brutal conflicts in human history?
Does any of that sound ridiculous to you?
Crash Station
Member
Really cool social simulation technology with a stat whoring aspect.
sensui-tomo
Member
dont most tutors in japanese culture teach in rooms secluded away from parents or whatever, hell i remember persona 4 doing the same thing. Also I hate to keep bringing this up as it doesnt get answered, how do we know the age of said girl and tutor. (or are we going with assumptions here? girl i assume is 14(youngest) through 17(oldest) and tutor would more than likely be anything above the age of 20
sechsterangriff
Member
She says her mother is worried she can't get to college so I suppose she's at least in highschool. The tutor has no defined or implied age since it's a blank sheet supposed to be filled by the player.
Crash Station
Member
I figured the tutor was at most only a few years older and possibly even the same age.
Prisoner KSC2-303
Member
I'll be honest, I'm more creeped out by some of the interpretations of the imagery shown as evidence, and why that element of sexual predation immediately comes to people's minds, than I am the premise of the game and the footage I've seen.
sensui-tomo
Member
so we can safely assume the girl is in her later years of high school so.. 16-18 would be an appropriate guess.
Well the tutor cant be in normal school like her, since i believe at that point tutor would be called senpai(or however older class students are called over there) so at best we can assume its something that the tutor/sensei can be a college student to whatever (since college students tutoring kids isnt an odd thing).
you get stats? lol dang.
how does that manifest though? I thought the game was mostly yes/no looking around/touching actions
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
I don't think many women would be fine with the sort of contact eye contact and invasion of personal space seen in this game. And again, gifs don't lie, the devs knew what they were doing dude. Why are you afraid to call a duck a duck?
I posted a gif before and after the music plays, she makes eye contact multiple times. It's incredibly creepy. There are at least six moments with incredibly creeping implications. And more that will be added in an update like going to the beach, (because that's totes important to tutoring), being fed, and maid outfits. Maid outfits. One of the most common fetishes in Japanese media.
If you wanna see what they're most excited about, check out the tone of the threads man.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1112600
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1277856&page=1
Astoundingly similar to the Japanese impressions:
Until the duck is pointed out as a duck, that's when the defense shows up.
I mean besides the fact that every enemy in the game is armed and constantly hostile if alerted to your presence, (compared to civilians who can't be killed by the player), but again, if you wanna discuss game violence, start that thread instead of derailing this one.
From what I saw of the campaign there's plenty of wide open level spaces where conflict can be avoided while you head to the objective. So yes, even one of the most brutal conflicts of history is allowing non lethal options outside of multiplayer which is active battles only. While also portraying the war in a much more hollywood way than a simulator.
She works at a maid cafe too, so she's got to be at least 17.
Nope, even at the same age, a tutor would still be referred to as sensei.
TheGraykid
Member
Why do people constantly use violence as an analogue here when violence is such an imperfect comparison point. The framing of violence in games and who often ends up suffering in these moments of violence, is so so different.
A proper comparison isn't mortal kombat, which is essentially a cartoon (I mean it's a world where superhuman movie stars and immortal ninjas fight each other to save earth from evil gods). This violence is palatable because it is so divorced from our reality, so crazy, so over the top.
That's one of the reasons that video games gets away with its violence not seeming creepy or fucked up.
Let me be clear, I think this game should exist, but I also think that defending people who may play this game for creepy reasons by going "hey, noted former movie star now superhero Johnny cage used his hands to rip apart an insect lady's torso before putting his head through it and repating a famous horror movie line. So you can't be weirded out at some people for creeping on this teenage girl" is nonsensical to me.
