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Red Dead Redemption 2 (Fall 2017, PS4/XB1, Trailer 10/20 @ 11 AM EST) announced

What will ultimately anger people the most about this game?


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Perhaps it's comments like this that demonstrate little patience and a feeling of entitlement?

"It's just about fun, so why does it matter" is such a short-sighted dismissive excuse. Do you feel the same about movies and television? Is it entitlement to want more informed, less stereotypical portrayals especially when Hollywood of all industries is acknowledging it, such as with Denzel in Magnificent Seven and SLJ and Jennifer Jason Leigh in The Hateful Eight?

It's not about telling devs what to do, but encouraging better represenation
This is more complicated then you make it sound.

People often have a hard time getting the balance right between criticizing macro trends (gaming doesn't have enough women in lead roles) and criticizing a specific work (GTA V should have a female lead). A flaw in the game industry isn't actually a "flaw" in a specific work, at least not in the eyes of most gamers, which is why there is so much blowback on that kind of criticism. There is a big difference between "the game industry needs more of this" and the statement that a game is "flawed" because it doesn't contain a socially progressive cast.

In Rockstar's case, the main topic of their art is masculinity. That's been true for a long time. This is a theme that they riff on and explore in a wide variety of settings. A lot of people feel they do this quite well, and a lot of people find value in what a Rockstar game provides. Rockstar does what Rockstar does. Like a Chuck Palanhiuk novel it might be a fairly limited milieu, but it is what they do well. The idea that they have some kind of "duty" or "responsibility" to do anything with their art other than what they want is one that many people disagree with.

Personally, I think Rockstar should make whatever games interest them. That's all I want them to do. I support them in that. I also support other developers who pursue very different ideas and intentions in their work and think that's a great thing as well.
 
I think none of these will be playable characters, the main protagonist story will collide at some point with them or maybe you control a rival gang/a sheriff and we finally will know how the gang was dismantled.

I'm excited as fuck.

This would be dope. I'm hoping for another reveal Thursday.
 
Maybe it comes out in......2077 XD

K? And some people don't? Your point?

I'm not saying it completely doesn't matter, but it's the least of things we should be worrying about IMO.

Honestly it's a shame that the announcement of(knowing Rockstar) what is probably going to be a great game is being overshadowed by the fact that there are no females.

Why is it the least of things we should worry about? Is the gaming side of GAF full of more pressing issues at the moment? Imagine if you went into threads about a game being unoptimized on PC with the attitude of "if you entitled brats don't like it you don't have to buy it there's more important things to worry about!"

Yes it's true all we have to go off of is a teaser pic and it's very possible rdr2 could have more diverse cast and story than anybody is expecting. My problem isn't that. It's that people are shutting down conversations about better representation and diversity full stop, and it's not the first time it's happened here. People trying to dismiss it as not being a real issue, because it might force them to be somewhat critical of some of their favorite developers or games, are displaying such a pathetic and small minded view of the world. Representation does matter. It matters in movies and it tv and yes, now even in video games, and if you guys really are so overprotective of your hobby, you should be all for it because it will do nothing but expand the audience that might buy a game.
 
Wow. 7 fucking white guys as a video game. Who could have seen that coming?

smh Rockstar not buying your damn game. So sick of this crap

Not sure if this is sarcasm or not but we haven't even seen a trailer yet that shows playable characters. It's a teaser poster. How do we know they're all white?
 
Hell yeah!! RDR2!!

Hopefully they have a simultaneous release on PC. If not, then I'll probably be getting this on the Pro.
 
Why are people bitching about "lack of diversity" first of all, you haven't even seen the game or what role women will play in the game yet, you are making assumptions based on a poster, second of all, the western era was not known for diversity whatsoever, if anything, it was a very sexist time period, thirdly, not everything that doesn't include women in leading roles means it is a "lack of diversity" has anyone here ever heard of creative choices?

People always looking to be fucking offended by something.

The bigger concerns here for me at least are 1.Why is the PC version being delayed/not announced? The only reasonable explanation would be that they want people to double dip or exclusivity which I am pretty pissed about because PC gamers have supported GTA V extremely well and whilst I love my PS4 I would prefer the play the PC version day one for obvious reasons (graphics, frame rate, resolution.)

My other concern is how there are numerous people in the poster, does this mean we are going to get 6-7 lead roles? Are they going the way of how all the modern westerns have? Like QT's latest movie the hateful eight etc?

Also, how big a role is online going to play? I assume a massive role considering how much money they made with V and will it impact the single player experience?

These are all valid concerns, diversity is also a valid concern (allowing for male/female in online for example like GTA V) but let's not jump on the silly train here and get offended because Rockstar MAY have chosen to not have a female in a leading role because of creative decisions in regard to the time period this is set in.

Also why can't it be an all male cast the same way it would be ok to be an all female cast? I don't understand why that is even an issue, people just want to fucking scream at the top of their lungs about how unjust everything is these days, deal with it, it's Rockstars choice what they want in this game, the new Mass Effect game is leading with a female role based on what I have seen (which I personally am happy about as I always played as female Shepard) but for this game in particular maybe it's not a good fit? Why does it always have to be about sexism?

Because this is NeoGaf and people love them some outrage.
 
I would like to see a female character in place for it as part of the gang, I think it'd add an interesting dynamic with her in a gang quite so prolific as Butch's

If the west is to be viewed as this lawless place then stereotypes of that era surely shouldn't apply. The west was about making something of themselves, good or evil, in a land that treat everyone cruelly despite who they were. Really all a woman would need there to make something of herself in a gang would be a good eye, a pistol and a large dose of cruelty.

I also think Bonnie was handled well in RDR, she never seemed a pathetic stereotype, she had lived a life of hardship and it had made her what she was. She was held back by the thoughts of what a woman should be whilst also being so much more than they imagined one could be.
 
While I'm in favour of Rockstar telling the story they want to tell with the characters they want to write, it's even more amusing to see people triggered by people discussing inclusion. They don't really see the irony of shrieking about "outrage/pc culture"?
 
Even though we don't even know that what's in front of us actually means anything?

You guys just need to wait for the trailer before you decide anything about this game. A pic ain't gonna mean really anything.

Well then this thread would be one post long.

The picture clearly means something towards the full game, we are allowed discuss it. Your complaining is just that, complaining. The same thing you're giving out to us for.

Because this is NeoGaf and people love them some outrage.
There is just as much "outrage" at the thought of us wanting diversity in this thread.
 
Because

a) when you're at the top of the hill, you bear more responsibility. Nobody's asking why independent games aren't representing marginalized people more (aside from, y'know, they already do). But a major game by a major publisher has way more eyes on it, and if attitudes are going to change, they're the ones that need to budge and step outside the same box of "everyone that matters is a white dude... oh except for the one person of color to 'mix things up'."

b) again, how long until that "original vision" is a pattern across all their games?

c) including diverse voices =/= whitewashing

I agree with you for the most part however, I am personally more interested in getting more minorities in a position of power to develop games. I think we are more likely to see more interesting stories and a more honest representation than we would if white men were to create a female/black/Asian/native american character.

I definitely appreciate the white developers that do put a diverse cast into their game but I think if the people they worked with weren't predominately white and male that we are more likely to get the representation we want.
 
That's fine if you want to live in your bubble where representation and diversity in media doesn't matter, but don't try and shut down people to whom it does matter.

uuuh...I think it's the other way around, seems like I can't enjoy some manly testosterone riddled game/movie without getting told.
 
Why are people bitching about "lack of diversity" first of all, you haven't even seen the game or what role women will play in the game yet, you are making assumptions based on a poster, second of all, the western era was not known for diversity whatsoever, if anything, it was a very sexist time period, thirdly, not everything that doesn't include women in leading roles means it is a "lack of diversity" has anyone here ever heard of creative choices?

People always looking to be fucking offended by something.

The bigger concerns here for me at least are 1.Why is the PC version being delayed/not announced? The only reasonable explanation would be that they want people to double dip or exclusivity which I am pretty pissed about because PC gamers have supported GTA V extremely well and whilst I love my PS4 I would prefer the play the PC version day one for obvious reasons (graphics, frame rate, resolution.)

My other concern is how there are numerous people in the poster, does this mean we are going to get 6-7 lead roles? Are they going the way of how all the modern westerns have? Like QT's latest movie the hateful eight etc?

Also, how big a role is online going to play? I assume a massive role considering how much money they made with V and will it impact the single player experience?

These are all valid concerns, diversity is also a valid concern (allowing for male/female in online for example like GTA V) but let's not jump on the silly train here and get offended because Rockstar MAY have chosen to not have a female in a leading role because of creative decisions in regard to the time period this is set in.

Also why can't it be an all male cast the same way it would be ok to be an all female cast? I don't understand why that is even an issue, people just want to fucking scream at the top of their lungs about how unjust everything is these days, deal with it, it's Rockstars choice what they want in this game, the new Mass Effect game is leading with a female role based on what I have seen (which I personally am happy about as I always played as female Shepard) but for this game in particular maybe it's not a good fit? Why does it always have to be about sexism?

Because as we all know from the history books, before the 60's, women and people of color didn't do anything.

EDIT: Also I love how having an all-male cast should be acceptable but an all-female would be hypocritical. Like somehow men and women are on equal footing in terms of representation in mainstream games... Because we see tons of games aside from creepy pandering otaku-bait which feature an all-female cast.
 
This is more complicated then you make it sound.

People often have a hard time getting the balance right between criticizing macro trends (gaming doesn't have enough women in lead roles) and criticizing a specific work (GTA V should have a female lead). A flaw in the game industry isn't actually a "flaw" in a specific work, at least not in the eyes of most gamers, which is why there is so much blowback on that kind of criticism. There is a big difference between "the game industry needs more of this" and the statement that a game is "flawed" because it doesn't contain a socially progressive cast.

In Rockstar's case, the main topic of their art is masculinity. That's been true for a long time. This is a theme that they riff on and explore in a wide variety of settings. A lot of people feel they do this quite well, and a lot of people find value in what a Rockstar game provides. Rockstar does what Rockstar does.
Perhaps in GTA, but RDR was more nuanced than that, and in many ways countered that topic in the portrayals of John and Bonnie
 
Oh for god's sake just choose your games accordingly if race and gender is such an issue to you. You have a black protagonist for Mafia 3, asian dudes for Sleeping Dogs and Yakuza, a teenage white girl for Life is Strange, an half black half white woman in Remember Me... all of which (bar Mafia which I haven't played yet) I have enjoyed A LOT, despite being a white male. Why is that such an issue I'll NEVER understand
Not despite, Privilege? You literally answered yourself.
 
Poster looks great. Characters, from what we can see, look badass.

Name is eh. But whatever.

Cannot wait for the game. So stoked to see the trailer on Thursday.
 
I agree with you for the most part however, I am personally more interested in getting more minorities in a position of power to develop games. I think we are more likely to see more interesting stories and a more honest representation than we would if white men were to create a female/black/Asian/native american character.

I definitely appreciate the white developers that do put a diverse cast into their game but I think if the people they worked with weren't predominately white and male that we are more likely to get the representation we want.

This is exactly the problem I have with the comics industry right now. With notable exceptions, i.e. Black Panther, the all new diverse casts in the major books are still being written by the same old creators. It feels a little hollow.
 
Well then this thread would be one post long.

The picture clearly means something towards the full game, we are allowed discuss it. Your complaining is just that, complaining. The same thing you're giving out to us for.


There is just as much outrage at the thought of us wanting diversity in this thread.
But the pic still doesn't say everything. There very well could be female characters that will be shown in the trailer.

Honestly, there's no reason to be outraged over no female characters when we don't know everything.
 
"Zero excuse"... So you're saying that someone creating a piece of art literally doesn't have the right to deliver their own vision? Obviously you're not referring to any actual legal requirements as there are none, so you must be saying there is some kind of universal moral imperative that any creator must obey regardless of what they actually feel like making?

I cannot stand this kind of entitled attitude. "How dare anyone create something that doesn't prescribe to my particular sensibilities!" Here's the thing: you can absolutely be disappointed if it's not what you wanted. Everyone has preferences, and you should absolutely tell a company that you are interested in (your preferred experience here). They might even do that at some point. But there is a difference between saying "I'm super disappointed this doesn't have a female protagonist! I would have really liked that" and "Fuck you dev you slimy racist bastards how dare you make the game you want and not the one I want!". That's the problem. The complaint is always that it's wrong that they didn't make what you wanted, which is the definition of entitlement.

This angers me because I want to have the freedom to make what I want to make. I don't want to be yelled at because I told a story that was on my heart, but it wasn't exactly what someone else would have created. The greatest works of art come from creators expressing their visions, because it's a story they have to tell, a picture they have to paint, music they have to write.

There is a TON of media that doesn't interest me. Things like the Saw movies disgust me. I think the world would probably be better off without that, so should I campaign to have those banned? Should I form an oversight committee to govern the direction of a sequel so that it's something I want? Or should I leave the creative direction to the people who actually wanted that to begin with?

Rockstar committed a grave sin here by releasing a picture that only has men in it, which means this is clearly going to be a horrible sexist game, right? So I'm curious. Would you go back in time and complain about Seven Samurai because the leads are men? I mean, that's seven lead characters and they are all men. That's bad, right? And yet, for some reason, as summarized by Wikipedia:



It almost seems like it might have actually been a good movie with a good story despite starring only men. How about The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings? Some of the greatest, most influential works of fiction in history, and they predominantly star men. Do you know why? Because these are the stories and the characters that the creators wanted to create.

Here's the truth: there are a lot of video games, that feature all manner of characters. Are there not as many representing what you are looking for? Here's an idea. Don't demand a creator change their vision to match yours. Instead of bitching about it, go make the game you want. That's what I'm doing. I will enjoy what media I enjoy, and will add what I think is missing.

This has been my sentiment to most threads that are about lack of female/black or what have you lead characters. If you have a story you want to tell, or something you want someone else to experience and feel what you feel for it, then go make it.
 
Why are people bitching about "lack of diversity" first of all, you haven't even seen the game or what role women will play in the game yet, you are making assumptions based on a poster, second of all, the western era was not known for diversity whatsoever, if anything, it was a very sexist time period, thirdly, not everything that doesn't include women in leading roles means it is a "lack of diversity" has anyone here ever heard of creative choices?

People always looking to be fucking offended by something.

The bigger concerns here for me at least are 1.Why is the PC version being delayed/not announced? The only reasonable explanation would be that they want people to double dip or exclusivity which I am pretty pissed about because PC gamers have supported GTA V extremely well and whilst I love my PS4 I would prefer the play the PC version day one for obvious reasons (graphics, frame rate, resolution.)

My other concern is how there are numerous people in the poster, does this mean we are going to get 6-7 lead roles? Are they going the way of how all the modern westerns have? Like QT's latest movie the hateful eight etc?

Also, how big a role is online going to play? I assume a massive role considering how much money they made with V and will it impact the single player experience?

These are all valid concerns, diversity is also a valid concern (allowing for male/female in online for example like GTA V) but let's not jump on the silly train here and get offended because Rockstar MAY have chosen to not have a female in a leading role because of creative decisions in regard to the time period this is set in.

Also why can't it be an all male cast the same way it would be ok to be an all female cast? I don't understand why that is even an issue, people just want to fucking scream at the top of their lungs about how unjust everything is these days, deal with it, it's Rockstars choice what they want in this game, the new Mass Effect game is leading with a female role based on what I have seen (which I personally am happy about as I always played as female Shepard) but for this game in particular maybe it's not a good fit? Why does it always have to be about sexism?

"Why are people bitching about diversity when we don't know about the characters?" Immediately proceeds to complain about the real issue, ambiguity in the announced platforms. My god, some of these posts are fucking amazing.

On Diversity: "fuck you, wait until we know more"
On Platforms: "where the fuck is the PC announcement? I'm fucking pissed!"
 
But the pic still doesn't say everything. There very well could be female characters that will be shown in the trailer.

Honestly, there's no reason to be outraged over no female characters when we don't know everything.

no one should be outraged about anything until the release date tbh
 
Trust you guys to flip your shit over a poster.

Pretty disappointed in the name, could have come up with something to fit with the naming of the other 2 games.
Brand recognition bruh

90% of the people who bought redemption don't even know revolver exists
 
So is it for sure Dutch's gang in the picture then? So still set in the late late west and not early?

The guy far left looks like John to me.

Really hoping this is kind of a fake out, like those characters are for mutiplayer and show you how good the character creation is (that you can make Dutch's gang) and then the trailer is going to be something totally unexpected from what people assume is a prequel to RDR.
 
If you are going to respond to my post you can do better than trying to bait me, maybe give a mature response about what you disagree with in my post.
I did respond to your post- I responded with amusement at you bitching about people bitching. it happens whenever someone tries to discuss inclusion in games and it never stops being funny.
 
But the pic still doesn't say everything. There very well could be female characters that will be shown in the trailer.

Honestly, there's no reason to be outraged over no female characters when we don't know everything.

But we're allowed to discuss it. That's the point of the thread to discuss the announcement and trailer.
 
This puts me in a weird spot.

I have an Xbox One S, and might be getting a PS4 Pro later

I have a 4K TV though, if this is only native 4K on Scorpio it may make that pretty attractive... Can't wait the extra year or whatever it will take for the PC version.
 
This has been my sentiment to most threads that are about lack of female/black or what have you lead characters. If you have a story you want to tell, or something you want someone else to experience and feel what you feel for it, then go make it.

Because everyone that plays games are all games developers? Pretty silly rebuttal to criticism in any field.
 
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