Fans are making the Sonic games I want, and that's cool

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Slamtastic

Member
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5paaz16Nw20
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0IsSeE_ckI

If these end up as fully featured games, Sonic could finally have his Mario 64 moment, 20 years later.

And with the recent positive reception from affiliated social media and hiring of former fangame devs for official projects making me hopeful that these could see the light of day as something bigger, I feel more excited about the series from these two videos than from Mania and the Generations sequel combined.
 
That first link is so sick. The physics model is pretty appealing, and I like how your momentum with the homing attack is maintained.
 
Both of those look utterly amazing, and make me want a free roaming/open world/Mario 64 style Sonic game. D:
 
Slamtastic said:
And with the recent positive reception from affiliated social media and hiring of former fangame devs for official projects making me hopeful that these could see the light of day as something bigger, I feel more excited about the series from these two videos than from Mania and the Generations sequel combined.
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I think there's a fundamental misconception here. I highly doubt Sonic Mania had its greenlight due to the fact that the people working on them had a history of doing stuff in the community. It was a plus, maybe a huge one, but I feel that who's involved, are involved because they've successfully shipped products. (PagodaWest doing Major Magnet, Christian obviously having done the Sonic 1 and 2 remasters prior)

While fan communities can come up with great shit, a business can't bank on what-ifs. What if the programmer just decides he's not interested anymore? What if there's un-reconcilable differences in opinion or direction?

Just about as important as the technical and creative ability to deliver a compelling product is the accountability and organization/hierarchy to prevent shit from going belly up, or in the worst case, having the contingencies to deal with it. Heck, more than a fair share of Kickstarters implode. Fan projects multiply organizational problems inherent to those to a much greater degree.

Don't get me wrong, some of the best content stem from the mod community, especially Valve games or Valve-endorsed projects - from Counter-Strike, Team Fortress, DOTA, to Black Mesa. But seeing a cool trailer and coming to the immediate conclusion of 'wow, give these guys a budget and let them make a game' is skipping half a dozen important steps.
 
THose are really cool little sandboxes experiments with a lot of potential, but personally I need something concrete to do. End-game experiencies please.
 
I mean, the movement in the first video looked great... but what is the objective in a level like that? Mario 64 had you going after stars, this would need to be a similar thing if you can just run around wherever you want in a big open space. Not sure if people really want that from a Sonic game.
 
I know it's a fan game and all but that first link in particular looks awful.

The art style is hideous and the animations look janky as fuck. Why does Sonic float awkwardly for huge distances ? Doesn't look natural and looks like the game is gltiching.
 
Falk said:
But seeing a cool trailer and coming to the immediate conclusion of 'wow, give these guys a budget and let them make a game' is skipping half a dozen important steps.
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I meant something bigger as in a full fan game that doesn't get C&D'd, not being officially picked up by SEGA. I'm not that blindly optimistic.
 
Slamtastic said:
I meant something bigger as in a full fan game that doesn't get C&D'd, not being officially picked up by SEGA. I'm not that blindly optimistic.
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Ehhhhhh SEGA's been pretty okay with Sonic fan stuff as you yourself pointed out in the OP.

Also there's Big's Big Fishing Adventure 3.
 
Sonic utopia looks exactly like what a 2d sonic translates into 3d, but the video comes of as so...directionless, like a sandbox, really makes me wonder what goals could be implemented in that environment.
 
PSqueak said:
Sonic utopia looks exactly like what a 2d sonic translates into 3d, but the video comes of as so...directionless, like a sandbox, really makes me wonder what goals could be implemented in that environment.
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Yep.

People really think Sega never considered something like this themselves? There's probably a reason why it's never worked out.
 
Wow Those videos actually highlight an ingenious way of making 3D sonic work in a way it hasn't before. Just make the world map really big. The past 3d Sonic games had very strict and narrow level designs which made the platforming very annoying due to conflict between precision and speed. Having a wide map really fixes that.
 
Sonic Utopia has really nice looking visuals, but I wouldn't want official Sonic games to be just sandbox playgrounds like the fan games in those videos. I'm sure they are fun to explore for a while, but I prefer more focused obstacle courses with focus not only on speed, but platforming as well. I haven't played either of these, but by the looks of them, it seems like you can just run around everything that might work as an obstacle for Sonic.
 
I really don't see the fun in running across huge open fields. It's too big, too open and too flat.


Impressive for fanwork tho on a technical level, not so much on the design side of things.
 
PSqueak said:
Sonic utopia looks exactly like what a 2d sonic translates into 3d, but the video comes of as so...directionless, like a sandbox, really makes me wonder what goals could be implemented in that environment.
Click to expand...

To me it seems like this is obviously more of an early proof of concept sandbox to showcase movement and possible setpiece design. There likely isn't any win state and the graphics are fairly early along.

You could cut back on the expanse and go Trials HD with it. Have the levels wind and fork all the while tossing badniks and obstacles in your way. It doesn't have to be as big as this, but it doesn't have to be extremely linear either. More verticality and tiered level design would work too, like it did in the classics.
 
Interesting gameplay mechanics aside, the open worlded sandbox level design of both looks doesn't really give me any idea how they would expand that idea into 10-20 different acts.
 
PSqueak said:
Sonic utopia looks exactly like what a 2d sonic translates into 3d, but the video comes of as so...directionless, like a sandbox, really makes me wonder what goals could be implemented in that environment.
Click to expand...

Triforce141 said:
Interesting gameplay mechanics aside, the open worlded sandbox level design of both looks doesn't really give me any idea how they would expand that idea into 10-20 different acts.
Click to expand...

It feels more of a proof of concept for movement and physics than anything. And at that it avoids a lot of pitfalls past iterations on the concept of "classic sonic in 3 dimensions" have fallen into, e.g. requiring loops wide enough to drive a bus on because of the speeds involved.
 
3D sonic fangaming engines have come a long way. Would totally buy a sonic game that controlled like one of those. I wouldn't want to play levels that look like that though, way too big and directionless.

Sonic fangames have a pretty abysmal cancellation rate though IIRC. So if anyone is expecting a full sonic 3D fangame like this, i wouldn't get my hopes up.

I meant something bigger as in a full fan game that doesn't get C&D'd, not being officially picked up by SEGA. I'm not that blindly optimistic.
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Sega is far too lazy to bother. Modders have basically ported everything good about Sonic Unleashed into Generations PC for free and Sega has done nothing. So a fangame should be fine.
 
I'd rather explore open spaces looking for collectables with the speedy movement and slopes/physics toolset than run to a goal, just as I'd rather open spaces looking for collectables with Mario's jumping toolset rather than run to a goal. Both series will keep getting 2D entries, so I wish the 3D ones would make better use of the virtual spaces.

The fact that fans are willing to go through the effort to make things like show there is a contingent of people who agree with this philosophy on 2D vs 3D platformer design.
 
(While clicking link)
"Probably some more 2D bullshi-

...wha


Mother of god"


This is my dream Sonic game. Massive stages. Physics based tricks and stunts. Where the fuck are those people saying a game like this would be impossible? Sega, I hope you're watching.

And I'm certain they've prototyped this style of game internally, and simply can't invest enough confidence to get it working right. I hope fan games like these help them field their worries and open the possibilities.
 
It's a shame some people are only able to see the levels as just being directionless instead of being excited for the fact that the level design has so much potential. It's like some of you can't think beyond what you're shown on the screen. With a bit of refinement and more structure, it really could become the way 3D Sonic games are made. I think it's bloody brilliant.
 
It's like the Mirror's Edge -> Mirror's Edge: Catalyst dilemna.

Both videos OP linked look awesome, particularly the first one since they nailed the aesthetic of the original games. I see myself playing them and dedicating hours to just dicking around the sandbox.

But at the end of the day I'm not sure if I want a game based around open world high-speed platforming. I prefer the tight, focused levels.
 
Both just felt directionless and more proof of concept but I hope they'll continue to improve because the first showings are great. Hope they avoid the pitfall of bigger isn't always better than previous attempted Sonic 3D fangames have fallen pray to.
 
skypunch said:
It's a shame some people are only able to see the levels as just being directionless instead of being excited for the fact that the level design has so much potential. It's like some of you can't think beyond what you're shown on the screen. With a bit of refinement and more structure, it really could become the way 3D Sonic games are made. I think it's bloody brilliant.
Click to expand...

Anyone can imagine all sorts of amazing game ideas, the difficult part if making them. These videos showcase cool-looking sandboxes for you to run around in but I'm not seeing where the game is supposed to go. There's gotta be an objective.
 
molnizzle said:
Anyone can imagine all sorts of amazing game ideas, the difficult part if making them. These videos showcase cool-looking sandboxes for you to run around in but I'm not seeing where the game is supposed to go. There's gotta be an objective.
Click to expand...

It's a proof of concept.
 
I am really impressed with these fan games look. The first link did a good job of making Sonic look like how he runs around in the Sonic CD intro, especially the part where he was running on the wall. I love how the mechanic of rolling from a running state translated nicely in both videos.

While I do like the idea of a Sonic game with more open levels, I do agree with the criticism that that kind of design leaves goals for the levels ambiguous.

I think it would be more interesting to have the more open-ended levels be hubs with interesting challenges to take on ala Sonic Jam's Sonic World or the challenges in SA:DX. Then there can be more focused levels with an endgoal of making it to the end.
 
Someone has got to do it.
Mania looks like the first interesting game in 15 years, although I really enjoyed Sonic 4 too, but more like an appetizer.
 
molnizzle said:
Anyone can imagine all sorts of amazing game ideas, the difficult part if making them. These videos showcase cool-looking sandboxes for you to run around in but I'm not seeing where the game is supposed to go. There's gotta be an objective.
Click to expand...

Giving players an option for guidance (like a luminescent trails going through the stage) would go a long way, I think, especially if there's multiple choices based on the sort of experience that route might give. (Platform-y, simple, stylish etc)
Edit: Or even go a step further, and maybe have ghosts of Sonic replays going through the stage, which can then show players how to correctly handle the ramps and such.

Green Hill Paradise definitely feels more fun, the more you understand the stage.

In retrospect, Sonic Lost World's tube designs feels smarter because they theoretically gave a free-form design but still funnelled players down a clear path. (The execution was to be desired, though, of course)
 
molnizzle said:
I mean, the movement in the first video looked great... but what is the objective in a level like that? Mario 64 had you going after stars, this would need to be a similar thing if you can just run around wherever you want in a big open space. Not sure if people really want that from a Sonic game.
Click to expand...

This is my thoughts too, pretty much.

They're really nice as tech demos for a sandbox world... but I don't see a workable game coming out of these without a fundamental change in level design while still being Sonic.

You get one of two results : either they basically make a banjo kazooie era type game where you're exploring and collecting stuff all over the place (which isn't what I associate sonic with), or they have to linearise it to the extreme opposite of what they showed in these examples... which is what sega did to make colours and generations.

These are still as impressive for fanworks as the last time I saw them.

skypunch said:
It's a proof of concept.
Click to expand...

That's nice. someone call me back in 5-10 years when they actually have a game instead of proof of concept then.
 
Linkstrikesback said:
You get one of two results : either they basically make a banjo kazooie era type game where you're exploring and collecting stuff all over the place (which isn't what I associate sonic with),
Click to expand...

No one really saw that as a Mario thing, but 64 happened. Besides, Sonic CD is all about that.

or they have to linearise it to the extreme opposite of what they showed in these examples... which is what sega did to make colours and generations.
Click to expand...

dlauv said:
You could cut back on the expanse and go Trials HD with it. Have the levels wind and fork all the while tossing badniks and obstacles in your way. It doesn't have to be as big as this, but it doesn't have to be extremely linear either. More verticality and tiered level design would work too, like it did in the classics.
Click to expand...
 
Nice proofs of concept, but open world is exactly what I don't want from the Sonic series. It's the same reason why I think that CD is on the lower end of 2D Sonic.

Give me mostly-focused level design with 2-4 main paths over this anyday.
 
molnizzle said:
...one that Sega has almost certainly created many times over the years. There's probably a reason why we've never gotten a game out of it.
Click to expand...

They've been unable to approximate classic Sonic's physics in 2D accurately, so I very much doubt they've been able to do it in 3D.
 
I don't like that "run off a ramp and dash into an enemy" maneuver 3D Sonics have. Back in my day, if Sonic was in free fall and touched an enemy, he lost his rings, damnit.
 
Slamtastic said:
I'd rather explore open spaces looking for collectables with the speedy movement and slopes/physics toolset than run to a goal, just as I'd rather open spaces looking for collectables with Mario's jumping toolset rather than run to a goal. Both series will keep getting 2D entries, so I wish the 3D ones would make better use of the virtual spaces.

The fact that fans are willing to go through the effort to make things like show there is a contingent of people who agree with this philosophy on 2D vs 3D platformer design.
Click to expand...

They agree with the philosophy, but has there been anything open world from fans that's good? The only legit 3D fan games I can think of are Paper Mario 3D Land Sonic World, and those are linear. Seems like a bunch of pipe dreams that never come to fruition. Because when you go open world, some other things are gonna have to go, like tightly designed platforming. And in the case of platformers, it's the most important thing.
 
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