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[purseowner]

I'm amazed there's any resistance to modernising this. It's not taking any options away from the privileged of you who are represented, so what's the harm. And please can people stop spouting the 'there's only two genders' argument.

Personally I think the posing of the question at the start from the professor is unnecessary and there should just be a character creator with the option to select gender or leave it blank, the latter giving you gender-neutral pronouns in the game.

Obviously this won't happen, because Japan as a whole isn't as progressive with many of these issues, but it wouldn't exactly be difficult to implement.

 

[ViciousDS]

Couldn't they just put.......boy, girl and the third option being custom or something with multiple templates allowing you to make what you want fully?

 

[tareqsalah1]

I'm a man and I play as girl character because it's cute. Cuteness is justice

My man. I do the same if i like the character. I played as a boy in x but i like the design of the girl in sun and moon so ill pick her.

 

[Belgian Dude]

I don't think a character creator is a good idea, to be honest. I know they could start with a default option but doesn't the anime often directly take from the player avatars in the games? (May, Dawn and Serena are all examples, I think). Since the anime and game are tied together for marketing and promotional issues, I can see that becoming an actual issue in the core planning of things. Having a standard design doesn't limit you from being gender fluid, but the lack of a standard design might incur a cascade effect on how the anime/games are marketed and tied together.

In my opinion, a simple "How do you look like" with the image below (posted on Page 1) would be a great step forward without adding a whole character creator to the mix. Sure, you still have the implication they're strictly two different genders for being on separate rows, but it allows you to identify as you please. You're not answering the question "what are you", which can be considered problematic, and let's be honest, dropping the phrasing will just drop the "Professor Oak is Senile" jokes that should be gone years ago.

And of course, removing clothing limitations. That should be a thing stat.

 

[Par Score]

It really does seem impossible for some people to recognise that their life experience is not the only one, that other people have different experiences than they do, and that those experiences are equally valid and important.

Many children grow up with far more complex feelings about their gender than you or I may have done. Just because you never gave a second thought to your gender identity when you were 6 or 10 or 14 doesn't mean nobody else did or does.

Representation is important, especially for marginalised groups, especially for children who are part of those marginalised groups.

Please try and see past the end of your own nose.

 

[Hypnotoad]

the poster is also quoting via Reddit "TumblrPls"
which uses

in their sidebar.

Just for context...

I posted that link because it was the first that popped up on Chinese Bing. I have no idea what that subreddit is about, something with people complaining about stuff on Tumblr, I guess?

Well, here is the link to the New York website in that very reddit discussion:

http://www.nyc.gov/html/cchr/downloads/pdf/publications/GenderID_Card2015.pdf

Edit: link does not open. Will have to use Google later once I'm back home.

 

[clay_ghost]

I have no idea a simple gender option in pokemon can warrant so much discussion for sure a huge thread. I don't think Game freak and TPC can really win here unless they implement a detailed model creation.

I am in the camp that think that Boy or Girl option is good enough for this type of game (I play as each gender If I play both version every gen and I usually just pick the better looking design 1st, whatever the gender)and any huge resources should be spent on improving the core game instead.

 

[Kazooie]

I mean, you can identify as a chocolate cheesecake if you like and I'm not looking to offend anyone here but there are only two genders.

 

[KojiKnight]

I mean, you can identify as a chocolate cheesecake and I'm not looking to offend anyone here but there are only two genders.

You just compared people who might consider themselves agender... to a cheesecake... Let's not pretend you weren't trying to offend anyone at least.

 

[LastCupOfSorrow]

Well it would benefit the majority

I would imagine you'd be in the minority as most people don't hate character creators

Statistics or your opinion is just as invalid...

I could also give a flying poo about character creators. I feel they are a waste of time and there should be a default to choose from as well.

 

[Fliesen]

I posted that link because it was the first that popped up on Chinese Bing. I have no idea what that subreddit is about, something with people complaining about stuff on Tumblr, I guess?

Well, here is the link to the New York website in that very reddit discussion:

http://www.nyc.gov/html/cchr/downloads/pdf/publications/GenderID_Card2015.pdf

Edit: link does not open. Will have to use Google later once I'm back home.

http://heatst.com/culture-wars/here-are-the-31-gender-identities-new-york-city-recognizes/

(i don't have any idea what some of those are, tbh)

to be clear, nobody is asking for 31 options to be put in pokemon. nobody is asking for explicit hyper-inclusivity. (please quote whomever does)
But a third option that says "other" or "custom" would be a step towards the right direction.
implicit non-exclusivity, if you will. The game acknowledging that there's something beyond the boy / girl dichotomy. Doesn't hurt anyone.

 

[Salty Rice]

I never gonna understand the urge to project myself onto a video game character anyway.

Its like reading a book or watch a movie. I play, read and see a story of a fictional character.

Sometimes i pick a man, sometimes a woman. Depends what looks and fits the the game best.

I think there are a bigger problems if YOU need to be the video game character in a fake world.

 

[Bulbasaur]

No, I don't believe it is. I think it's cute.

 

[GinoFelino]

I mean, you can identify as a chocolate cheesecake if you like and I'm not looking to offend anyone here but there are only two genders.

My eyes are rolling back so hard you'd think I need an exorcist.

Good grief.

 

[mrklaw]

Doesn't work for French, that trainer is either "ce dresseur" (male) or "cette dresseuse" (female). Also, some of the verbs will have to end either in "é" if male or "ée" if female...



Doesn't work in french either, Champion implies Male, Championne is Female.

Broadening out from specific Pokemon talk. How do languages with gender like French handle this 'gender fluid' world? I guess they don't? Is this something that gets talked about at all?

 

[LastCupOfSorrow]

I'm amazed there's any resistance to modernising this. It's not taking any options away from the privileged of you who are represented, so what's the harm. And please can people stop spouting the 'there's only two genders' argument.

Personally I think the posing of the question at the start from the professor is unnecessary and there should just be a character creator with the option to select gender or leave it blank, the latter giving you gender-neutral pronouns in the game.

Obviously this won't happen, because Japan as a whole isn't as progressive with many of these issues, but it wouldn't exactly be difficult to implement.

Real question: Is it truly progressive when feelings override facts?

As a science teacher, I need convincing of the social aspects.

 

[Vital Tundra]

I say just put the picture of the guy or girl character, and allow said character to wear any of the clothing options.

 

[Makki]

Leaving it boy or girl lets Gamefreak avoid people being offended by their own terms for sexuality being excluded since its as generic as it gets. The main audience for the game has an easy choice between 2 easily recognizable entities, and not too many parents will have to modernize kids, which is a really odd word to pick, by having to explain that with genders there are all sorts of shades of gray at a young age. If anything they could just ask you what you look like as you pick the character since many boys pick the girl without identifying as a female and viceversa.

 

[KojiKnight]

I never gonna understand the urge to project myself onto a video game character anyway.

Its like reading a book or watch a movie. I play, read and see a story of a fictional character.

Sometimes i pick a man, sometimes a woman. Depends what looks and fits the the game best.

I think there are a bigger problems if YOU need to be the video game character in a fake world.

Immersion is a powerful part of any entertainment medium. People find immersion in different ways. It's not right or wrong.

If I spend 10 hours being immersed in a good book or a good video game, it doesn't really matter and is certainly not a problem. It's only a problem if I decide not to go into work this week to catch up on the latest Harry Potter or miss my kids birthday party to play Halo.

 

[Captain Europe]

I mean, you can identify as a chocolate cheesecake if you like and I'm not looking to offend anyone here but there are only two genders.

 

[Nottle]

The question could be reworded or removed for a more traditional character creator, though you will probably lose a bit of the "introduction to the world of Pokemon" that is in every game. I am perhaps a bit ignorant but I feel like the young child anime face is already sort of androgynous so would the option of wearing every piece of clothing solve a problem? It's not like you have many secondary sex characteristics other than boobs and a differently shaped waste.
In Animal Crossing New Leaf the game asked you if you were boy or girl, but after that you had the option of buying skirts for your guys at which point your animations would switch to the more feminine ones.

 

[Mihael Mello Keehl]

People identify as to which one they want..?

 

[MrHoot]

People identify as to which one they want.. its a simple question

Yeah I never saw it really as a way to identify gender, more like a simple way of putting for kids of "What do you want to look like more". Helps that the characters in pokemon have always been pretty neutral in their respective gender typing so I don't see it as "problematic" to have that kind of wording. I don't expect lots of young age kids to have a concept of gender identity yet when they play pokemon, they just wanna go with the character they identify the most visually with

 

[KojiKnight]

Real question: Is it truly progressive when feelings override facts?

As a science teacher, I need convincing of the social aspects.

It's really rather simple...

Let's say option A makes 99% of people happy, but makes 1% really unhappy.

Let's say option B makes 99.9% of people happy, including most or all of that original 1%.

The question then becomes why choose A when B works better? Most of the time it's because it's different and people resist change for no reason other than it is change.


This is what this is. It's removing option A (Are you a boy or girl?) and replacing it with option B (Which character and outfit best suits you?)

 

[oni-link]

Statistics or your opinion is just as invalid...

I could also give a flying poo about character creators. I feel they are a waste of time and there should be a default to choose from as well.

Ok provide me with statistics that show the majority of gamers hate character creators or your opinion is just as invalid

Well it's nice you prefer a default character but unfortunately for you the world doesn't revolve around you

 

[LastCupOfSorrow]

Ok provide me with statistics that show the majority of gamers hate character creators or your opinion is just as invalid

Well it's nice you prefer a default character but unfortunately for you the world doesn't revolve around you

But I didn't claim that, you did. Those words came out of your mouth, not mine.

I never claimed a majority of gamers hate creators. I spoke for myself. You spoke for the "majority". Relax.

 

[Horp]

Wow character creator asks me if I want to be an Orc, a Troll, a Human, and so on.
It's not unlikely that someone would want their character to be something not included in the list; like an half-orc or a spider even. But that's not part of the character selection. Of course some might feel it's too limited; I mean we all want more options, but I don't feel it's "outdated".
In Wow there are more options than Pokemon when creating your character; in Pokemon there are only 2 options.

And please don't come and say that identifying with a specific third gender is more valid and acceptable than any other type of entity/character you identify with. Having 3 options, or 4, is MORE than 2, but it's not like there is some requirement to have exactly 3 or 4. You might as well have 10, or 1000.

 

[Iceternal]

So in everydaylife, should we also stop saying "ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls " ?

And just say "Hey people" ?

 

[oni-link]

But I didn't claim that, you did. Those words came out of your mouth, not mine.

I never claimed a majority of gamers hate creators. I spoke for myself. You spoke for the "majority". Relax.

There is no need to get upset, I've just not come across many people who hate character creators and mark games down when they have them

I can understand a preference for a default character, sure, but I don't think most people hate creating their own character

 

[dock]

The main audience for the game has an easy choice between 2 easily recognizable entities, and not too many parents will have to modernize kids, which is a really odd word to pick, by having to explain that with genders there are all sorts of shades of gray at a young age.

You're jumping to some very strange conclusions (if I understand what you're saying).

If anything they could just ask you what you look like as you pick the character since many boys pick the girl without identifying as a female and viceversa.

This is what most people are requesting. .

 

[AoM]

So in everydaylife, should we also stop saying "ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls " ?

And just say "Hey people" ?

There are people who think this, yup. (meaning I can't believe there are people who think this)

 

[purseowner]

Wow character creator asks me if I want to be an Orc, a Troll, a Human, and so on.
It's not unlikely that someone would want their character to be something not included in the list; like an half-orc or a spider even. But that's not part of the character selection. Of course some might feel it's too limited; I mean we all want more options, but I don't feel it's "outdated".
In Wow there are more options than Pokemon when creating your character; in Pokemon there are only 2 options.

And please don't come and say that identifying with a specific third gender is more valid and acceptable than any other type of entity/character you identify with. Having 3 options, or 4, is MORE than 2, but it's not like there is some requirement to have exactly 3 or 4. You might as well have 10, or 1000.

Pokémon is fundamentally a kid's game which is wish fulfillment involving a human avatar of a similar age that many base on themselves. It's important that those who don't identify within the binary of male and female feel represented and validated in their identity. How you can compare the importance of that to wanting more fantasy races in a game astonishes me.

 

[LastCupOfSorrow]

There is no need to get upset, I've just not come across many people who hate character creators and mark games down when they have them

I can understand a preference for a default character, sure, but I don't think most people hate creating their own character

You are the angry one, guy, lol. Seeing how I never mentioned hating anything or speaking for anyone other than myself, I'd say that I am in the clear here. You sure do love using the word hate though, don't you...?

We have boys and we have girls. I know of no other scientifically proven genders.

 

[Horp]

Pokémon is fundamentally a kid's game which is wish fulfillment involving a human avatar of a similar age that many base on themselves. It's important that those who don't identify within the binary of male and female feel represented and validated in their identity. How you can compare the importance of that to wanting more fantasy races in a game astonishes me.

You didn't read the rest of my post. There are people that identify as neither male, female or a "third gender". It isn't common, but there isn't a clear line to draw in this. If you draw a line, you could just aswell draw that line with the 2 most common genders.

 

[KelpPlankton]

It would be nice if every game decoupled language and appearance and just let you pick whatever. There's no downside to it.

The Sims lets you do that now, appearance and pronouns and gender 'functions' are all just options you can pick.

Hell, Saint's Row 2 had a gender SLIDER, that game was cool as hell

 

[Zolo]

It's not like this is really limited to Pokemon at all. It's the case for almost every game. Start up Dragon Age Inquisition and you choose male or female.

Even games good about these types of issues may go 'Male, female, or neither'.
-Pick neighter.
- "Okay. What would you pick between male or female?"

So in everydaylife, should we also stop saying "ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls " ?

And just say "Hey people" ?

This is in fact a conversation being had.

 

[Omega Ultimus]

I'm going to address some misconceptions that keep coming up. If you're already aware of the facts, disregard:

On thinking that sex and gender being interchangeable terms:

"Sex" refers to the biological and physiological characteristics that define men and women.

"Gender" refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviours, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for men and women.

To put it another way:

"Male" and "female" are sex categories, while "masculine" and "feminine" are gender categories.

Aspects of sex will not vary substantially between different human societies, while aspects of gender may vary greatly.

WHO (World Health Organization)

"Children don't care about/understand gender" and/or "Children don't question their gender identity":

2-3 years
At this age, young children are developing “gender identity.” This means that they begin to label themselves and others as male or female. They can use words to label friends, family, and themselves as a boy or a girl.

Jodi Putnam with Judith A. Myers-Walls and Dee Love (Purdue University)

The topic of gender identity is often discussed merely in terms of dysfunction, and the diagnosis of gender identity disorder is a known phenomenon in both children and adults. However, physicians should remember that all individuals possess a gender identity and that the process of becoming aware of it is an important part of the psychosocial development of a child. In the realm of pediatrics, recognition of gender identity is a process rather than a particular milestone, and variance from societal norms can cause distress to both the child and the child's family. It is necessary to understand the varied pathways that lead to a mature and congruent gender role in order to fully assess a person's behavioral health

Medscape

 

[chillybright]

There is no need to get upset, I've just not come across many people who hate character creators and mark games down when they have them

I can understand a preference for a default character, sure, but I don't think most people hate creating their own character

If it is not a old school D&D style game I don't want to create my own character and just want to get over with it asap.

 

[KojiKnight]

Pokémon is fundamentally a kid's game which is wish fulfillment involving a human avatar of a similar age that many base on themselves. It's important that those who don't identify within the binary of male and female feel represented and validated in their identity. How you can compare the importance of that to wanting more fantasy races in a game astonishes me.

It's a drive-by shit post... we've had a lot of them in this thread. They aren't ever going to be back in here, they just wanted to spout off a response to the title without even reading the OP let alone the last page of the thread.

 

[Horp]

It's a drive-by shit post... we've had a lot of them in this thread. They aren't ever going to be back in here, they just wanted to spout off a response to the title without even reading the OP let alone the last page of the thread.

I even replied again before you did this reply. Read before you spout off random nonsense. And also read my post and comment on it if you have something to add, thank you.

 

[Pieman0920]

Does the whole boy/girl thing in Pokemon ever effect anything besides clothing? I think there may have been something in Black & White but I never actually played that generation.

 

[MrHoot]

I'm going to address some misconceptions that keep coming up. If you're already aware of the facts, disregard:

On thinking that sex and gender being interchangeable terms:

WHO (World Health Organization)

"Children don't care about/understand gender" and/or "Children don't question their gender identity":

Jodi Putnam with Judith A. Myers-Walls and Dee Love (Purdue University)


Medscape

Well spank me and call me chollo the hyperventilating clown, I learned something today.

Wouldn't mind anyway if they changed to just "Which character do you want to pick/How do you look like" or something, stays simple and solves the problem pretty much

 

[oni-link]

You are the angry one, guy, lol. Seeing how I never mentioned hating anything or speaking for anyone other than myself, I'd say that I am in the clear here. You sure do love using the word hate though, don't you...?

We have boys and we have girls. I know of no other scientifically proven genders.

You're confusing biological gender and gender identity, which is something a lot of people do

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe there are 1000s of posts on GAF where people are wishing for a Souls game where they can play as Johny Souls, but that's not something I've come across. Maybe you have come across that, and if that is the case, then fair enough

My point was the more options the player is given the better. Your point was you don't want options, which while being a valid point, is redundant when we consider the debate at hand. Sorry if I misjudged your tone you just seemed really abrasive, though now you have insisted you're not upset I can see my error

 

[Hypnotoad]

Pokémon is fundamentally a kid's game which is wish fulfillment involving a human avatar of a similar age that many base on themselves. It's important that those who don't identify within the binary of male and female feel represented and validated in their identity. How you can compare the importance of that to wanting more fantasy races in a game astonishes me.

Even if that were true, it is first up to society to progress on these issues, not the Pokemon Company. And you can play this validating identity/inclusion argument with pretty much anything. What about fat kids, should Pokemon help fight body shaming them by offering a fat character option? Should religious identities be included, to make Pokemon more acceptable/inclusive to those who consider it a devils work/haram/whatever? Once you start down the path of identity inclusion, the fight never stops.

 

[KojiKnight]

I even replied again before you did this reply. Read before you spout off random nonsense. And also read my post and comment on it if you have something to add, thank you.

Then how about you go back and read the last page or two... pages that give solutions that would appease everyone. Why make your first post entirely about the title without reading or addressing what's in the OP?

I was just taking my example from you

Even if that were true, it is first up to society to progress on these issues, not the Pokemon Company. And you can play this validating identity/inclusion argument with pretty much anything. What about fat kids, should Pokemon help fight body shaming them by offering a fat character option? Should religious identities be included, to make Pokemon more acceptable/inclusive to those who consider it a devils work/haram/whatever? Once you start down the path of identity inclusion, the fight never stops.

You know, there were people who used this exact argument about Nintendo including different racial skin variants in Animal Crossing right? Someone has to make a step somewhere. It doesn't have to be Nintendo or Game Freak... but by the same note, why CAN'T it be Nintendo or Game Freak? Yes, there will be more social issues... that doesn't mean that just because there are more coming doesn't mean that none are worth mentioning or improving on.

 

[Par Score]

So in everydaylife, should we also stop saying "ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls " ?

And just say "Hey people" ?

Are you a circus ringmaster or something? How often do you have to address people like this?

If I was doing some all inclusive carny work I'd go with "Roll up, roll up one and all, and welcome, welcome everyone!"

Inclusivity isn't hard, unless you're trying to make it hard.

 

[purseowner]

I even replied again before you did this reply. Read before you spout off random nonsense. And also read my post and comment on it if you have something to add, thank you.

I don't understand why you're insisting that it creates the issue of 'where do we draw the line' (rhetoric, by the way, that has commonly been used to prevent and reduce representation of minorities).

All I'm suggesting is creating a genderless/gender neutral option. That would please many more people. Doesn't change the fact that specific identities wouldn't be represented in name, but that's a long way off, and a lot of people would be happier with gender neutral pronouns, because at least that wouldn't be misgendering them necessarily.

 

[Nosgotham]

It basically asks your gender and there is only two choices. I fail see to novelty in it. I know that you can pick one or the other but what if you associate with neither or both? I just find it lame that it is asking you if you are a boy or girl in the first place and implying that you are either.

I mean what if someone in real life went up to people and asked that question?

Is this something that is forever going to be a tradition of the Pokémon mainline games and remakes? I mean it doesn't have to be worded the way it is , Pokémon Go at least tried to do something about it.

it doesnt ask your gender. it asks your sex. theres a difference

 

[Diprosalic]

If it is not a old school D&D style game I don't want to create my own character and just want to get over with it asap.

Same.

I know why they are liked because often they default to a white guy.

I want the dev having a clear vision what their character is be that male, female, black, white, asian, gay, lesbian, transgender, etc.

 

[oni-link]

Same.

I know why they are liked because often they default to a white guy.

I want the dev having a clear vision what their character is be that male, female, black, white, asian, gay, lesbian, transgender, etc.

It depends on the type of game. If there is a strong narrative and story sure, but games like the Souls games, RPGs with classes/races, Monster Hunter etc, work better with a character creator