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[DedValve]

Everyone is talking about "demands" as if we don't constantly make them on a daily basis in this very forum with several threads every few hours of what we should see in the next game, how x game fucked up and should have y mechanics, why z game failed and why I'm hyped for b game, what a game/company (nintendo 9 times out of 10) needs to do in order to win back x crowd.

But someone asks a question "is simply asking for 2 genders and only 2 genders outdated and if so could there be a more inclusive option" is simply asking for too much nowadays.

Now I can't begin to understand translation but I am sure that when scripts are made there must be some process to easily switch out adjectives based on the gender selected. After all this has been going on since Crystal where choosing a girl the game will understand and replace he with she, his with her, etc. Perhaps asking a they/them for genderqueer wouldn't be a significant hassle, again every game probably sets this up differently but if every game where you choose gender accurately describes you as your assigned gender than hopefully adding another option won't be too much of a hassle and goes a long way to just being more inclusive.

Oh and no gender assigned clothes and hairs. Especially hair since people can easily pull off the opposite genders look and its all about how they wear it in combined with everything else they are wearing

Spoiler

and I deserve a ponytail as a male dammit

 

[PBY]

Yeah but the whole industry is (but that's no excuse). For now there's no reason to be outraged I guess since nearly every game has a lack of gender options beyond male and female.

2 things:

1 - No one is outraged, and

2 - I agree - the fact that the whole industry does something one way creates inertia, and gives others cover to not push things forward in these areas. Which is why these discussions are important.

 

[clo1_2000]

I will post this respectfully and hopefully won't be banned. I think the issue here is that society in the US (I know Nintendo made this, but here me out) is just getting to the point of becoming comfortable with Lesbian and Gay people. This is evident through the Supreme Court finally recognizing Gay and Lesbian marriage. I think the society as a whole finally gets that being Gay or Lesbian is not chosen and is just a natural way of life, like being heterosexual.

Now, the society is being increasingly exposed to people who are transgendered or who identify as a different gender they were born with. I believe that eventually, people will begin to understand respect these choices, just as they have with hetero and homosexuality.

I am not saying that this is right or wrong, but this is change management at a societal level. Once society becomes more "enlightened" and realizes that gender is fluid, we will start to see more inclusion in all of our media, not just video games.

Again, I'm not saying that this is right or wrong, just an observation from someone who likes to study sociology in his spare time. I understand that other areas of the world are already there, but I don't believe Japan or the US has quite gotten there yet.

 

[UncleSporky]

Is this significantly better than what Pokemon offers? It essentially serves the same function: choosing an avatar. Is how Pokemon does it more egregious than Splatoon?

A lot of people seem to be saying the main difference is that this screen says "choose an inkling!" and not "are YOU a boy or a girl." However you could also interpret the question as "what do you want your avatar to be," and not "what are you actually IRL."

 

[etrain911]

I feel like it could be better served by a feature that says "What do you look like?" and maybe just going with something gender neutral the whole game: "Oh, they're my kid!" or "Oh! That's my young assistant, BLANK, aren't they good-looking?", etc. It would probably also save them from having to create two different scenarios based on chosen PC gender too, so I don't know why they wouldn't.

 

[PBY]

I will post this respectfully and hopefully won't be banned. I think the issue here is that society in the US (I know Nintendo made this, but here me out) is just getting to the point of becoming comfortable with Lesbian and Gay people. This is evident through the Supreme Court finally recognizing Gay and Lesbian marriage. I think the society as a whole finally gets that being Gay or Lesbian is not chosen and is just a natural way of life, like being heterosexual.

Now, the society is being increasingly exposed to people who are transgendered or who identify as a different gender they were born with. I believe that eventually, people will begin to understand respect these choices, just as they have with hetero and homosexuality.

I am not saying that this is right or wrong, but this is change management at a societal level. Once society becomes more "enlightened" and realizes that gender is fluid, we will start to see more inclusion in all of our media, not just video games.

Again, I'm not saying that this is right or wrong, just an observation from someone who likes to study sociology in his spare time. I understand that other areas of the world are already there, but I don't believe Japan or the US has quite gotten there yet.

Videogames are part of society though. How do you think society changes?

 

[LionPride]

Jesus Christ on a Pogo Stick what is wrong with some of you?

People ask for inclusion and it's met with cries of "Who cares" "Stop complaining" "Stop being offended by everything"

Y'all need Jesus

 

[Spring-Loaded]

You can certainly pretend your character is a black male transgendered lesbian, but is this a reasonable thing to expect to be outright stated by characters in a Pokemon game? I understand and emphasize with the desire for your race/religion/sex/gender/etc to be represented in a game, but we should also temper our expectations, especially for games aimed at children. Gender is a very complex issue and I'm not sure if we should be looking at Pokemon to make huge strides to bringing awareness to the general public.

If you were to ask most people "How many genders are there?" they would probably say "Two" or "What's the difference between sex and gender?" Many people don't even know what transgendered means. People should definitely make efforts to educate others about tolerance towards the myraid of genders out there, but we also have to understand that the vast majority of people are completely ignorant about the subject, and whether or not the best way to do introduce the concept of more than two genders is via Pokemon.

Really people are just arguing semantics. SPLATOON:

Is this significantly better than what Pokemon offers? It essentially serves the same function: choosing an avatar. Is how Pokemon does it more egregious than Splatoon?

The person I was asking was mocking people who want to see more representation in games, and not just in relation to Pokémon. I appreciate the actual response though. Was asking why they thought "black male transgender lesbian" or any other identity makeup is ridiculous to want in a game in general, not specifically in this series.

That said, having a neutral option, even just for pronouns in dialogue, would be fine in Pokémon. That series doesn't need to provide a comprehensive rundown of gender identity for its players, but it doesn't have to eschew the concept entirely either.

 

[Tecnniqe]

I always considered it asking for your Sex not Gender when picking Boy/Girl.

Is sex not a biological fact while gender is "what i identify as"?

I don't think it's outdated for any game to ask what Sex you would prefer to play as.

 

[BiggNife]

I like how the OP posted a pretty calm, level headed question and the immediate response is shit like this

Woman 1: "Hey I'm pregnant!
Woman 2: "Oh!! Is it a boy or a girl??"
Woman 1: "FUCKING CIS BIGENDER SOCIETY BLA BLA BLA BLA BLA.....!"

For GOD'S sake this shit has to stop. It's a god damn videogame.

Seriously, what the fuck is this fucking question.

Why is it every time someone asks "hey can we have more options to include more people" so many people are chomping at the bit to respond with "NO FUCK YOU AND YOUR LGBT AGENDA AGGGH PEOPLE LIKE YOU ARE FUCKING RUINING VIDEO GAMES"

Like, look. I'm a cisgendered white dude. But I don't really see any issue in Pokemon not forcing a gender/gendered clothing. In the case of Animal Crossing you can wear whatever gendered clothing you want and your villagers will even say stuff like "hey that's fine, you do you," which is kind of a cool and shockingly progressive thing for Nintendo to do. I don't see why they can't do that in Pokemon.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

I think pokemon go got it right with "choose your style".

 

[Ekai]

Why does the discussion about inclusions in video games offend you so much?

My question for stealth-bigots all the time.

 

[Boney]

Even if you're a radical thinker of non binary gender and you yourself think yourself as a non gendered person I'm sure you can make interpret the question as who do you want your avatar to be.

You're complicating an issue that doesn't need to be complicated for choosing your avatar in Pokemon. This isn't a doctor's office.

 

[Storm Chamber]

Why force your hang ups on children though?

 

[Mr Waluigi]

It'll be outdated when the notion of non-binary gender will be more commonly accepted. Until then, I wouldn't expect a mainstream video game series, aimed at children, made by Japanese people, to elaborate on such a thing.

At least they're making steps in the right direction by letting you pick a race (although skin/hair/eye color is more like it, and it's still very limited). I think they need to work on that first before taking on less clearly defined/accepted traits.

 

[BiggNife]

If that makes you sleep better...

You were the one that posted a whiny rant in response to someone simply asking for more inclusion in games, so yes, you definitely came off as offended.

Did you even read the OP? The poster didn't say anything remotely close to "FUCKING CIS BIGENDER SOCIETY BLA BLA BLA BLA BLA.....!" they said "I just find it lame that it is asking you if you are a boy or girl in the first place and implying that you are either."

One sounds like a screaming child and the other sounds like a reasonable question. I'll let you figure out which is which.

 

[purseowner]

Even if you're a radical thinker of non binary gender and you yourself think yourself as a non gendered person I'm sure you can make interpret the question as who do you want your avatar to be.

You're complicating an issue that doesn't need to be complicated for choosing your avatar in Pokemon. This isn't a doctor's office.

Except misgendering is an issue, and you then go on to offensively conflate biological sex and gender as if they're always the same which is highly transphobic.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

Why force your hang ups on children though?

Maybe if they're exposed to these concepts early on, they won't lose their minds when the topic comes up, like some posters here.

 

[antibolo]

Why can't people just pick one gender? I don't get it.

Furthermore this is a fucking video game here. I'm a cisgendered male and yet I almost always pick the female option whenever available (and tend to gravitate towards female characters in fighting games and Overwatch and etc.). To imply that the gender you pick for your video game avatar HAS to match your real-life gender identity is just silly.

 

[Trey]

I actually forgot Pokemon even asked this. yeah throw in more options, inclusiveness is fun for every one.

 

[JimmyRustler]

The probably best way to tackle this is to rephrase the opening question from "Are you boy or girl?" to "What gender do you identify with?".

Sorry folks, but the first question offers only two possible answers as there are only two genders. As what you yourself identify with is an entirely different story.

 

[Captain Europe]

Why force your hang ups on children though?

Since when are options about forcing?

 

[ar4757]

I thought you're either a boy or a girl - I don't mind people being whichever they wanna be (all the power to them), but what else could you be?

 

[AESplusF]

It's a game that's marketed primarily to children

 

[Ahasverus]

I liked Saint Row's nonchalant "fuck it" approach.

 

[purseowner]

Why force your hang ups on children though?

But these aren't necessarily 'our' hang ups. Non-binary children deserve validation and acknowledgement.

I thought you're either a boy or a girl - I don't mind people being whichever they wanna be (all the power to them), but what else could you be?

*facepalm*

 

[Ekai]

Maybe if they're exposed to these concepts early on, they won't lose their minds when the topic comes up, like some posters here.

Pretty much.

Why can't people just pick one gender? I don't get it.

Furthermore this is a fucking video game here.

If it's just "a fucking video game", I don't see what the issue is with adding more basic options or being more inclusive. Video games should be inclusive in the first place. It's not like only one demographic plays them.

 

[DNAbro]

I thought you're either a boy or a girl - I don't mind people being whichever they wanna be (all the power to them), but what else could you be?

Sex is binary(boy/girl)

Gender is more a spectrum, with masculine on one side and feminine on the other. You could have mix of both aspects or be somewhere in the middle.

 

[DedValve]

Why force your hang ups on children though?

It is often during your early phase of life where you begin to question gender parameters. For example you can be diagnosed with gender dysphoria at a very young age. So by adding an option that is not removing or changing anything else in the game you are being more inclusive to said child.

And its not hang ups. Its inclusivity. And children are really smart, a hell of a lot smarter than the pokemon plots designed for them. And if children don't want to be referred in a more gender fluid manner then guess what, adding an option is not removing what is currently there.

 

[Venfayth]

Why can't people just pick one gender? I don't get it.

Furthermore this is a fucking video game here. I'm a cisgendered male and yet I almost always pick the female option whenever available (and tend to gravitate towards female characters in fighting games and Overwatch and etc.). To imply that the gender you pick for your video game avatar HAS to match your real-life gender identity is just silly.

I just want to bring up the concept with you that to people who struggle with gender identity (living their whole life not really knowing who they are, how they're supposed to feel) having an option that actually feels like it suits them might be more important to them than someone who is just choosing a fun rpg character. Does that make sense at all?

It's certainly not necessary, which is why nobody is actually offended that the choice isn't there already. But it would be an inclusive positive step that negatively effects virtually nobody.

 

[BiggNife]

I thought you're either a boy or a girl - I don't mind people being whichever they wanna be (all the power to them), but what else could you be?

Gender identity is a very complicated topic that I definitely can't articulate with any sort of nuance or grace but there are people that identify as agender (as in, they don't identify themselves as entirely male or entirely female) and prefer the singular "they" as a pronoun.

I'd recommend googling it if you're interested because I'm not educated/experienced in that sort of thing enough to explain it well.

 

[Jamix012]

It's a game that's marketed primarily to children

Why does it matter that children are exposed to an idea of gender fluidity? It's not inherently sexual.

Also, yo, some people in this thread. I generally think that NeoGAF often goes off on the deep end of the left for many issues, but having extra options for gender? Why does that even affect you in the slightest as an option.

 

[daemonic]

The question itself is outdated. They should rephrase to it something like "Choose your character". Asking if the player specifically is a boy or a girl is nothing short of exclusionary. It's exactly this type of thinking in popular culture that contributes to the struggles and inner conflicts of the LGBT community, especially children. Going by some of the responses in this thread, it's abundantly clear that many of you have no understanding of how real and damaging these struggles are.

 

[DedValve]

Maybe if they're exposed to these concepts early on, they won't lose their minds when the topic comes up, like some posters here.

You....I like you.

 

[AESplusF]

I think pokemon go got it right with "choose your style".

So it's literally the same thing but uses the word style instead of gender, what kind of difference is that really making that seems so nitpicky, if it's just over the wordage i mean

 

[purseowner]

So it's literally the same thing but uses the word style instead of gender, what kind of difference is that really making that seems so nitpicky

One's potentially misgendering or invalidating towards the player, the other's not.

 

[MUnited83]

Yeah but the whole industry is (but that's no excuse). For now there's no reason to be outraged I guess since nearly every game has a lack of gender options beyond male and female.

The funniest thing about this thread is the ammount of very smart people that react to a small , reasonable request by shouting " WHY ARE YOU SO OUTRAGED"

 

[Hades Hotgun]

I always considered it asking for your Sex not Gender when picking Boy/Girl.

Is sex not a biological fact while gender is "what i identify as"?

I don't think it's outdated for any game to ask what Sex you would prefer to play as.

Sex would deal with genetics but few if any games address that, instead opting for stereotypical gendered body morphology, clothing, and voices.

So if you choose to see it as selection of sex, then you are doing so in the face of the evidence.

Also, while sex is genetic, it is not really any more binary than gender. Many people with mixed male and female sex traits never even know they have them. The idea that almost all people fall in to two discreet categories is a learned social construct, not a biological fact.

 

[PBY]

Maybe if they're exposed to these concepts early on, they won't lose their minds when the topic comes up, like some posters here.

This is A1

 

[BiggNife]

The funniest thing about this thread is the ammount of very smart people that react to a small , reasonable request by shouting " WHY ARE YOU SO OUTRAGED"

Yeah this is the thing that I find so baffling

Literally nothing about the OP comes off as outraged and yet half the people in this thread are like "JESUS CHRIST WHY ARE YOU ANGRY ABOUT THIS"

All the person said was "it would be nice if this game had this option"

 

[Ekai]

I just want to bring up the concept with you that to people who struggle with gender identity (living their whole life not really knowing who they are, how they're supposed to feel) having an option that actually feels like it suits them might be more important to them than someone who is just choosing a fun rpg character. Does that make sense at all?

It's certainly not necessary, which is why nobody is actually offended that the choice isn't there already. But it would be an inclusive positive step that negatively effects virtually nobody.

Pretty much this.

It is often during your early phase of life where you begin to question gender parameters. For example you can be diagnosed with gender dysphoria at a very young age. So by adding an option that is not removing or changing anything else in the game you are being more inclusive to said child.

And its not hang ups. Its inclusivity. And children are really smart, a hell of a lot smarter than the pokemon plots designed for them. And if children don't want to be referred in a more gender fluid manner then guess what, adding an option is not removing what is currently there.

Can confirm from a very young age that I questioned my sex-assigned at birth. A world more inclusive to kids who have similar experiences would be far better. Not much else to add, you basically said all I would say.

 

[antibolo]

Pretty much.



If it's just "a fucking video game", I don't see what the issue is with adding more basic options or being more inclusive. Video games should be inclusive in the first place. It's not like only one demographic plays them.

It adds more development time to include these things. In the end you can't possibly please everybody.

While we're on the subject of Pokemon, from what I heard XY has actually removed the possibility of cross-dressing in the localization. So they've essentially regressed. I think that's too bad.

 

[elkniwcire]

I feel it could probably be resolved by asking which you identify as, then allowing any article of clothing to be worn by either gender. Sunset Overdrive handled this pretty well.

 

[Anth0ny]

"Choose a character"

The available characters are boys and girls. That's really all it takes to avoid directly confronting the player with "You there, playing this game! You are either a boy or a girl!"

Even better than that would be to include a 3rd non-descript character in addition to the boy and girl.

yeah that seems reasonable to me

 

[Darryl M R]

I don't think it is outdated to have only male or female pronouns. To argue that it is outdated would imply that it is the norm to have non-gender pronouns or a more expansive gender pronoun list for societies; unfortunately this is not always the case.

I think it would be smart to let the player create their character and then pick the appropriate pronoun via "boy or girl?"

I don't think Nintendo is going to tackle these social issues. I can see a third party AAA RPG leading the way (Mass Effect maybe) for this.

Easy solution is the game just has gender neutral pronouns and let you pick your avatar/character that is either feminine or masculine, but I don't think Pokemon is going to do this.

Would be nice and I support any form of extra inclusion.

Edit: As a black male I would find it extremely hypocritical for me to argue for inclusion in terms of skin tone but not for this. I know how it feels to want to feel like you are represented by your gaming avatar. Visual skin tone or gender specific pronouns can mean a lot to others.

 

[DedValve]

So it's literally the same thing but uses the word style instead of gender, what kind of difference is that really making that seems so nitpicky

Is there a community thread specifically for the Transgender and Genderqueer? I know theres a general LGBT thread but for posters such as the above they show genuine ignorance and I don't go through peoples post history but this isn't aggressive in its tone which already puts you way above many others in this thread.

Its pretty complicated and I am not comfortable enough myself to break it down but reading posts like yours makes me think if we don't have one we should have a thread in the OT about Gender Fluidity and Identification. It'll go a long way in helping make people understand and empathize with the very real struggle that even children face every day when being forced to behave and act in typical gender roles and must always assign themselves as such.

It really does mean a lot to the people who don't typically fall into the boy/girl category of gender, and gender and sex are not the same thing but asking the question "are you a boy or a girl" is inherently both a sex and gender identity question.

 

[Ekai]

It adds more development time to include these things. In the end you can't possibly please everybody.

A pallete swap/few lines of text for a game like Pokemon adds such a small amount of time. I'm reminded of Ubisoft's lame-ass excuse about "female protagonists being too hard to make" when I read stuff like this. And that's way more "complicated"(read also: a dumb excuse) than what's done in Pokemon. Yet Ubisoft did it.
Why are you so against games being inclusive and having more options? >_>

 

[God Dayumm]

Not only does it limit you to 2 gender choices, both characters look like girls since gen 4, so clearly the game still needs a lot of work. But baby steps, we just got some skin color options

 

[Ekai]

Is there a community thread specifically for the Transgender and Genderqueer?

There is a TransGaf community thread, yes.

 

[BTA]

I like how the OP posted a pretty calm, level headed question and the immediate response is shit like this








Why is it every time someone asks "hey can we have more options to include more people" so many people are chomping at the bit to respond with "NO FUCK YOU AND YOUR LGBT AGENDA AGGGH PEOPLE LIKE YOU ARE FUCKING RUINING VIDEO GAMES"

Like, look. I'm a cisgendered white dude. But I don't really see any issue in Pokemon not forcing a gender/gendered clothing. In the case of Animal Crossing you can wear whatever gendered clothing you want and your villagers will even say stuff like "hey that's fine, you do you," which is kind of a cool and shockingly progressive thing for Nintendo to do. I don't see why they can't do that in Pokemon.

This. Plus, people immediately whining about how dare we see the question as "offensive" now when that's not really where this is coming from. It's limiting, is the thing, and it'd be nice to open things up. And it even benefits people who are cis and just want more customization.