AHappyPanda
Member
If you think transgender suicide rates are tied to binary gender choices in a Pokemon game....
It's an issue. It's not a hardship.
This.
Is the Pokémon "Are you a boy or girl?" thing outdated?
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If you think transgender suicide rates are tied to binary gender choices in a Pokemon game....
It's an issue. It's not a hardship.
This.
GeordieMark
Member
How do you portray a non-binary or agender avatar? You can ask the question, but how do you represent that on screen? This topic is such a minefield that I don't think any game dev would want to touch it for fear of causing offence, no matter how well intentioned they are.
You're roleplaying as a video game character. It's not someone intentionally misgendering a transgendered person.
purseowner
Member
Continue to expand customisation and character creation options, and make all those avaliable across gender options. Pretty simple to implement.
Firefoxprime
Banned
I mean I guess he could be empathetic, and still maintain his stance. "Although there's a very minor group not being represented, I don't particularily feel their "lack of" is detrimental to the kiddies". Or something like that.
Seems its all or nothing for some cats. Very few cases of smooth middle line.
Yeah, transgender people are men who were born as women, or vice versa. They want to identify as the gender on the opposite side of the spectrum.
just like in politics where there's not just left or right, and nothing in between (as some seem to believe), there's also a middle ground with gender. Because just like with politics it's not as simple of a question but a combination of many aspects.
A gender queer person might like to dress in a very feminine way, but also wear a full beard, for example. (cmiiw if i'm speaking nonsense, btw)
similarly, a female born gender-queer could wear super baggy clothes and short hair, yet not identify as "a man" or "a woman", really.
Seeing as how central gender identity is to our personalities, wouldn't it be rather curious that this aspect of our lives could only have one out of two states?
You can be a fan of multiple sports teams, you can love all of your children the same, but you can identify with one and only one discrete gender? :/
the hardship part is that every little, innocuous plea for representation gets beaten down and mocked beyond compare.
neither sexual orientation, nor gender, nor biological sex is binary. sorry to burst your bubble there.
Belgian Dude
Member
I agree completely. When I said "take the first step" I don't mean just a developer adding the option to the game (maybe the term 'leap' might be better there), but also people pushing for discussion just like this. Their voices will reach the developers, who will in turn add more inclusive options in, which will in turn generate more discussion about it, and so on.
There's a chicken/egg cycle that makes things harder, sure, but it's by no means unbreakable, and we should try and push for awareness about the issue whenever we can. That same cycle of pop culture/awareness should hopefully make things easier to discuss once the ball gets rolling once at least a couple of developers start adding these options.
Scientist Supreme!
Banned
You don't get to decide that, you and everyone else who can't bring any sort of empathy to this discussion. Think about you would feel to never see someone that that look like in media for most life and how that would effect you.
Sex is binary, not gender.
I'd be surprised if a trans person was offended by the lack of an option that they feel suits them, but they'd probably be ecstatic to find that was an option.
So why not put it in? \There doesn't even have to be some magic third option. Why not design a system that doesn't even talk about gender or ask "are you a boy or a girl" ?
These aren't hard questions. The answers are pretty easy too. The types of changes they could make would only have positive results. They're not going to upset anyone.
Storm Chamber
Banned
Couldn't that show be on your foot, friend?
GeordieMark
Member
That's a very general answer. I get what you are saying, but there is more to it than that. A full on character creator would be a pretty big job to implement, and it doesn't make sense to have them in all games.
AHappyPanda
Member
That may be true in some situations where people ask for representation but get beat down..but......not having it in a children's RPG is not one of those situations.
That being said. I would welcome more options. Be whatever and whoever you want to be.
yeah, that is literally what the OP was about and what this thread should be about
oh comeon, "a children's RPG". When it suits the argument, it's "a children's RPG". It's one of the most popular gaming franchises among children, teens and adults alike.
Obviously not.
But its tied to acceptance and understanding. In a very small way, this is a step against it.
Lord of Ostia
Member
Gender and biological sex are not the same thing. On top of that, there are people who are intersex, which means they have physical aspects of both biological sexes.
belteshazzar
Member
No
Something that I feel isn't getting enough discussion in this topic is specifically how Nintendo uses these characters. May, Dawn and Serena were the playable female defaults in R/S, D/P and X/Y respectively with the later having customization options. They might not be well defined characters in the Pokemon games but they are well defined characters in the TV anime which is tied to the games. There are also other specials, like Generations and Origins, that use the default designs. The character defaults help anchor, define and distinguish each generation from each other and again tie into general marketing. The fan works community also treat the defaults as their own characters. It's for all these reasons that I think "defaults with lots of customization options" works better for the Pokemon franchise and moving towards "no defaults" that some are clearly advocating is a mistake.
It seems to me, if gender representation is the issue, the best way to approach the situation is to do what what Pokemon Go did. If the language readjustment isn't enough, go for three customizable defaults in vein of the Team Leaders - one female default (ala Candela), one male default (ala Spark) and one more ambiguous (ala Blanche - though most people treat Blanche as she were female).
Given the way the Pokemon franchise has worked for the past 20+ years, I don't think getting rid of defaults is the best move for the franchise but there are still ways to be more inclusive along the axis of gender.
It seems to me, if gender representation is the issue, the best way to approach the situation is to do what what Pokemon Go did. If the language readjustment isn't enough, go for three customizable defaults in vein of the Team Leaders - one female default (ala Candela), one male default (ala Spark) and one more ambiguous (ala Blanche - though most people treat Blanche as she were female).
Given the way the Pokemon franchise has worked for the past 20+ years, I don't think getting rid of defaults is the best move for the franchise but there are still ways to be more inclusive along the axis of gender.
There is media out there for transgendered people, and as it becomes more and more welcomed and normalized in overall culture the more and more it will show up. I do agree that Pokemon having more blended options would be a move in the right direction, but it's not Nintendo/Game Freak/The Pokemon Company being offensive or bigoted by not including the options. Just like how it's not inherently sexist/racist for a character to be male/white/black/woman/etc if that is how the artist/designer created the character.
Sadly looking at the world today it would not go without upsetting some people, and making a splash in potentially a negative way depending on how the media or news covered the reaction towards it. Is it just playing it safe instead of pushing the needle for the better? Yes. Can I blame any company for taking the safe route? Not at all.
That's literally what this thread is about. You're projecting, because no one has accused Pokemon of anything.
yanipheonu
Member
I would probably wait for some major societal paradigm shift in gender before Pokemon turns Gender into a slider, not a binary choice.
But I mean, in Pokemon the trainers you play are implied to also be characters within the world (Red existing outside Red/Blue for example) so you're less picking your gender and more picking the gender of one of the two existing characters. It's perfectly fine. This isn't some complicated character creator.
But I mean, in Pokemon the trainers you play are implied to also be characters within the world (Red existing outside Red/Blue for example) so you're less picking your gender and more picking the gender of one of the two existing characters. It's perfectly fine. This isn't some complicated character creator.
AHappyPanda
Member
yeah, that is literally what the OP was about and what this thread should be about
oh comeon, "a children's RPG". When it suits the argument, it's "a children's RPG". It's one of the most popular gaming franchises among children, teens and adults alike.
I'm just saying.....when does it stop?
When do I get to play as the post-op transgender female who identifies as a black male in the next Call of Duty game? WHEN?
Admittedly I'm not an expert on that subject, so I don't want to speak for others. But "intersex" is usually understood as a spectrum of biological sexes. Some syndromes are much more common than others.
If sex is only determined by the type of gamete you produce, where would you place someone who has male and female characteristics but produces neither cell, and doesn't have a typical XY or XX genetic makeup?
While that would work for English (and especially Japanese, where grammatical gender pretty much doesn't exist), it would be a nightmare for translating the game into Romance languages. In French, sentences as innocuous as [name] "is nice", or [name] "went to the store", or "You're the new champion" are grammatically gendered.
purseowner
Member
An offensive and mocking slippery slope argument. Wonderful.
Firefoxprime
Banned
Wouldn't that person just look like a guy or a gal, regardless of ho they were born? Wouldn't the transguy feel "connected" when seeing a guy on screen? I'm getting the impression there's a visual distinction, but it seems you've got the answers for this one.
Lord of Ostia
Member
Why does it need to stop? Why would having a character like that in Call of Duty be a bad thing?
Micro aggressions, friends. "You're not normal," they hear when they see one of their favourite games ask them if they are a boy or girl; they're neither, perhaps or one at one time and another later.
But this game they love, they've played for a while, maybe it's not for them? Maybe, their family tells them they're crazy or weird; can't accept them as they are. Maybe they lost a job or friends because of who they are... And here's another reminder that they're not normal... Can you imagine what it'd be like if their favourite game acknowledged them, in a tiny way?
If changing the way Pokémon handled gender helped one person, saved just one life, I'd say that was worth it, no?
no wait, they were missing the "attack helicopter" part. damnit. scratch that. no bingo! apologies!
Astral/H3X
Member
Only on GAF could I expect Pokémon of all things to be at the center of a heated gender debate.
The issues here are larger than just boy/girl character selection in a video game, and is something where someone in this position should be seeking help for their depression/suicidal thoughts No one should have to go through that but the idea of implementing this as a means of saving lives is a little over the top in my opinion.
Roni
Member
The answer to that question depends... have you found a way for people to work for free? Because unless you have, someone will need to design, build and test those outfits. And the money they make could be used to hire an extra programmer or designer to make the actual game better. And missing out on an opportunity to make the game itself better is a bad thing.
AHappyPanda
Member
The point is. I would be all in for that if you read my other post above.
But......to get to that extreme level of minutia is.......probably not worth it for developers is my ultimate point.
Be whoever and whatever you want to be. I am not anti-anyone. Everyone has the right to be who they want as long as they don't hurt themselves or others.
I just don't like the politicizing of my games is all.
purseowner
Member
Art is inherently political and doesn't exist in a vacuum.
Lord of Ostia
Member
So it's more work to have one of the characters in a Call of Duty game be a black FtM transgender male than a 30 year old cisgender white male? Modeling and animating any character takes time and effort, but I'm not sure where you are getting the idea that a character being transgender makes them so much harder to create in a game than a cisgender character.
If Pokémon is what contributed to an attempt to kill yourself then you need serious help. This is almost insultingly stupid to draw a comparison to when there are actual issues transgender people deal with.
This game is asking for what some people would call your "sex". It isn't asking about what you psychologicaly identify as. I would hope that people can understand the difference instead of assuming it's somehow disregarding whatever 3rd option they identify as.
Scientist Supreme!
Banned
Who is calling them that? Give me one post that says that. The thread was made just to ask a question, a question that clearly has one answer that it, not to force Nintendo by gun point to put this in
thank god! Bingo!
and - everyone has the right to be who they want (but not in my Pokemon games) because adding that tiny bit of extra dialogue, that extra checkbox that says "other" in an RPG that has generic dialogue that barely differentiates between the player character being a boy or a girl, that's too much effort. It's literally as much effort as including a "post op transgender black person" in a game with highly scripted narrative set pieces. literally.
absolutely not. Prof. Oak-or-whomever isn't asking you for the anatomy of your reproductive organs. He is literally asking you whether to call you "him" or "her" and whether the shirts you buy in stores will have a waistline. He's literally not asking you about your biological sex.
It's way harder, i know, i live in mexico and thus speak spanish, a language where absolutely every noun is gendered even when it refers to things without a biological sex and where shenanigans abound, such as the fact that the default gender of a generic squirrel regardless of the actual sex of the squirrel is female.
But it's not impossible, it just would be worded a bit awkwardly (which it was, when mexico released special editions of Pokemon Blue and Red in spanish, the official nintendo magazine in the country made fun of the weird phrasings, because even before gender was an option the games were neutrally written).
For example, in english "Congratulations, you're the new champion" would have to be gendered for a literal trnaslation to spanish "Felicidades, eres el/la nuevo/nueva campeon/campeona", but you can actually write it neutrally as "Felicidades, has ganado el campeonato" (Congratulations, you have won the championship", sounds weird, but otherwise perfectly neutral.
Would it sound awkward? yes of course, but it would be gender neutral with a bit of work. Change has to start somewhere.
Haha, fair enough, but still, if it would help just a tiny bit? Smaller things have been the tipping point for bigger things.
I mean, I'm not arguing for something completely out there, I don't think. Maybe a third default that's just slightly androgynous? Maybe just make the professor use different wording? I dunno.
Roni
Member
No, it isn't more work to have the character be transgender. It's one character, takes the same effort. That's not even what I'm arguing here.
It's more work to build the whole game around a character creator that lets you build ANY character. Which is the only option that would satisfy everyone.
purseowner
Member
What are you suggesting agender and non-binary people choose when faced with that binary in-game? Their biological sex that they don't identify with?
That's where things get muddy... I'd let that person place themselves, depending what makes them feel comfortable. But I still wouldn't say there's a third biological sex because some people don't produce gametes at all and have non-typical genitalia. If that were the case, someone could make me into that third sex by cutting off my testicles. Nature is messy, and it's true that the concepts of "man" and "woman" don't exist in some perfect form in it. We just assign labels to things that are useful to generalise about.
But all of that is pretty secondary to this thread, anyway... This is more about people who identify as non-binary, and the vast majority of those people aren't intersex.
I don't think so. Were people upset about Pokemon Go asking "What's your style"?
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