GiantBreadbug
Member
Yeah I mean, I'm all for it. There's no reason they shouldn't just do it so I would say the addition would be great. Just because nobody else does it certainly doesn't mean Pokémon can't.
Is the Pokémon "Are you a boy or girl?" thing outdated?
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Yeah I mean, I'm all for it. There's no reason they shouldn't just do it so I would say the addition would be great. Just because nobody else does it certainly doesn't mean Pokémon can't.
I wish I was more shocked about the continued denial that intersex people and gender non-binary people exist in this thread.
Like, these people exist. Saying over and over again that there's only two genders isn't going to change that. All it does is cause needless hurt.
"Society" is not some external force, it's the combination of all the forces that act on it or in it.
If games became more inclusive, then that gives the rest of society a push to become more inclusive, just like if the rest of society became more inclusive, it would pull games to become more inclusive.
Some people outright reject gender and consider themselves agender, others consider themselves to lay somewhere in the middle of the gender spectrum, for a start.
Consider humanity. All ~7 billion of us living, all ~100 billion of us dead. Is it really so silly to consider that not all of us might fit into one of only two completely separate gender identities?
Then why use the defenses of "it's just a video game" or "it adds too much work" if you aren't against it when: 1) the last isn't true and 2) the first implies that people need to stop wanting more from their games. Again, it's a defense that bothers me because it reminds me of the bs excuses Ubisoft had about female player models...and Ubisoft's models are going to be way more complicated than what's going on in Pokemon yet Ubi could do it.
Literally no one is dictating that the developers have to do anything. We're discussing the benefit of inclusivity in gaming. Chosen gender doesn't tend to play a role in Pokemon games from my experience. So the resistance to it makes even less sense to me.
Those people are right here in this topic no less.
Lord of Ostia
Member
No one is outraged about it. The original post for this thread, and all the posts suggesting a character creation without gender restrictions or a gender non-specific choice are not posts of outrage at its lack of inclusion. Everyone is used to not having those options. We are simply suggesting that having those options could be a positive thing for people outside of the gender binary. There are many ways to achieve this, but GameFreak doesn't have to do any of them, and they likely won't for a long time. Doesn't mean that it wouldn't be a good thing do to, and it doesn't mean we can't discuss the issue.
Isn't this question in most RPGs though?
I guess, this is why I like RPGs with a set character like The Witcher. I AM Geralt, I AM Ciri, regardless of gender, mine or theirs, when I play the game... and let's be real, have you ever created a character in a character creator as cool as Geralt? No, you haven't. The choices in character creators are not that important. What matters is, is this character fun to ROLE PLAY as? This is why many Mass Effect players choose to be Fem-Shep because they feel Jennifer Hale makes the character more interesting than the Male version. I also felt this way about Fallout 4, the male voice actor was vanilla and boring, the female voice had waaaay more range to it.
Also, realistically does anyone see games, especially 'kids games', adding more options to the gender selection? Nope, not going to happen, whether it should or not.
I guess, this is why I like RPGs with a set character like The Witcher. I AM Geralt, I AM Ciri, regardless of gender, mine or theirs, when I play the game... and let's be real, have you ever created a character in a character creator as cool as Geralt? No, you haven't. The choices in character creators are not that important. What matters is, is this character fun to ROLE PLAY as? This is why many Mass Effect players choose to be Fem-Shep because they feel Jennifer Hale makes the character more interesting than the Male version. I also felt this way about Fallout 4, the male voice actor was vanilla and boring, the female voice had waaaay more range to it.
Also, realistically does anyone see games, especially 'kids games', adding more options to the gender selection? Nope, not going to happen, whether it should or not.
rochellepaws
Member
I remember playing Red/Blue at the same time as my brother and feeling envious that he could name the character after himself and play the game as if he was the character while I had to name the character Ash and forever be aware that I could only control somebody else and not be myself as playable female poketrainers weren't allowed for some reason.
It sucks to not be able to have a character that represents yourself in a game that is clearly designed for that. For non-gender binary people it'd be a small change that would make a huge difference. Nobody likes to feel unrepresented or left out during character creation, I'd imagine those who'd oppose something like this have never encountered the annoyance themselves due to being part of the demographic that is always represented in everything.
It sucks to not be able to have a character that represents yourself in a game that is clearly designed for that. For non-gender binary people it'd be a small change that would make a huge difference. Nobody likes to feel unrepresented or left out during character creation, I'd imagine those who'd oppose something like this have never encountered the annoyance themselves due to being part of the demographic that is always represented in everything.
purseowner
Member
They/them is a popular set of pronouns.
What do you even mean what does a non-binary person look like? Is your mental depiction of 'man' and 'woman' so intensely stereotyped that you find it difficult to picture a person who doesn't identify with the gender binary?
Wishmaster92
Member
Why is this in the gaming section and not ot?
yeah, but it sure feels nice to always have the chance available to you.
btw, i love people who keep shitposting in this thread - it's not just the bigotry but the blatant display of "hello, i have merely read the thread title, haven't even read the OP, let alone paid attention to the fact that bans have been given out - here's me arguing against some strawman outrage (that hasn't really occurred) or some strawman demands for Pokemon including a 90 step character generator (that haven't been made) "
There's only 2 kinds of "outrage" in this thread going on: "FUCK OFF DONT TOUCH MAH POKEMANS" and "I can't believe people can be so devoid of empathy for minority groups"
GiantBreadbug
Member
Yeah, my post was 100% more warning against thinking this one game in particular has an especially shit way of dealing with it when a lot of games do it because that's kind of an unfair notion.
As stated above, I think it's important to talk about and ask for. And I would be pleased to see it added.
Conkerkid11
Member
I can name Link whatever I want. Doesn't mean I'm roleplaying as Link. And while he represents my gender, he certainly doesn't represent my physical appearance.
Same goes for Pokemon characters.
KojiKnight
Member
Should gamefreak and all other video game companies who currently use a binary gender option in their games handle selection the same way as Facebook? Honestly, if I didn't identify as male or female, and I'm given a list of 50+ gender options and my gender STILL isn't represented, I would be more disappointed
There is a difference between not having an option, and being forced into an incorrect one. In English, at least, it wouldn't be difficult to make this all gender neutral, never even asking the user what they identify as.
captainpat
Member
Or just go the Pokemon go route and have the players choose styles
Should gamefreak and all other video game companies who currently use a binary gender option in their games handle selection the same way as Facebook? Honestly, if I didn't identify as male or female, and I'm given a list of 50+ gender options and my gender STILL isn't represented, I would be more disappointed
Given that most all of those are 1) Ways to say the same exact thing and 2)offensive slurs about trans individuals in some regards: Your coloring of what's going on with FB isn't anywhere close to accurate.
It's related to a video game/about a video game's content, so........................
... i'd love to see the stats of people calling their Pokemon trainer after themselves. I wouldn't be surprised if it's almost half.
not solved, tip-toed around, really.
If a character creator allowed for 5 skin colors, none of them black, do you believe the issue were 'solved' if it said "what color is YOUR CHARACTER"?
dismissing player self-insertion in a role playing game (that allows you to enter your name) just because we're afraid(?) to give players the option to check 'other' feels like such an overreaction.
So this just sounds like a body type slider? While there is an obvious correlation between body type and gender due to the formative effect of Testosterone and Estrogen during puberty, a male isn't any less male just because they are svelte without broad shoulders and a female isn't any less female just because she is build like a linebacker. At least that's how I see things? I'd also add Pokemon protagonists tend to be kids or teens not done with puberty. So if the aim is realism, body types between the genders aren't going to be as variable.
I also stand by my earlier post that I think Pokemon is better served by defaults with lots of customization options rather than no defaults at all. The language could certainly be cleaned up or made more inclusive which I think is the point the OP is trying to make.
rochellepaws
Member
Link has more definition as a character than generic pokemon trainers. Modern pokemon games allow you to change hairstyle and skin colour for your character as well as your gender, nothing like this has happened in a mainline Zelda game to customise Link.
Lord of Ostia
Member
Or go down the route they've already started and increase the customization options available to the player, and not locking the player into specific facial features, hair styles, and body types by having a binary gender choice at the beginning which limits the customization options you have access to. Pokemon could use a more robust character customization anyway; I doubt most people would be upset if they had a more robust character creation suite?
The games already forgo most use of gendered pronouns in favor of using the player's name when they are being addressed or talked about, so it's not as if they would have to change a ton of text.
Lionel Richie
Member
Personally this doesn't affect me so I'm obviously not the most enlightened mind to give an opinion here, but I do think it's nice they offer you the option to play as a girl and have done so for quite some time. This seems like a given in the industry but sadly it still isn't.
MillionStabs
Banned
The "Are you a boy or girl" question has more immersion, though. Its supposed to feel like the Prof is talking directly to you.
ratcliffja
Member
Gender's such a weird thing. For those using the "natural" argument, consider how many people are born with both sets of genitalia or neither. Ultimately, gender identity is a combination of hormones and conscious decision (like most aspects of our identity, really). I understand Game Freak wanting to keep things simple from a design standpoint, but if they really want to make the trainer your avatar, then they need to add a full character creator and do away with any restrictive labels other than choice of pronoun. Something as simple as "sir" or "madam" would probably suffice, as it's a title rather than a gender assignment. It's off-topic, but the real problem with a huge part of gender identity issues is that so many languages have gender-specific pronouns. Even without the consideration of gender identity being non-binary, it's really annoying to have to say "he or she" when talking about a random sampling. For a long time, the default was just left as male, as seen in many religious texts and government constitutions (e.g. "man" when talking about human-kind). If we could agree on gender-neutral language that isn't a pain to say, I think a lot of these issues would be moot.
Yeah, but I'm not gonna whine that certain characters might not fit a certain definition of maleness or whatever. We have people in this thread saying only two genders exists and then we have someone irritated because a character doesn't look specifically how they want. These are clearly issues of different magnitude.
Sorry if this is a bit off-topic. I have a question for any intersex person. I searched a while ago about intersex because i like to be well informed. But i have some questions left:
1) I read about a person who feels both a girl and a boy. This person got the result that he/she has xxy. I also read about person who have xxxy (if i remember well). So in this case it was measurable that he/she feels both female and male.Is it also possible to feel both male/female without having such thing as a extra 'x'? And is this then something more in the mind (psychological) then biologic?
Oh and i assume that xxy means: Since you have xx (female) but also a 'y' (male) you both feel male and female... but mb im misinformed on this? (didnt payed much attention in biology lessons haha)
2) This might be different on indivudual basis. But how does a intersex person knows he/she is? Is it based on a thinking of: hmmm i look like a boy but i can emphasis with girls also quite a lot and i like classical girly things and at the same time boys stuff. I might be intersex.
Or can you feel it deeper in the core. Like a feeling in your soul.
1) I read about a person who feels both a girl and a boy. This person got the result that he/she has xxy. I also read about person who have xxxy (if i remember well). So in this case it was measurable that he/she feels both female and male.Is it also possible to feel both male/female without having such thing as a extra 'x'? And is this then something more in the mind (psychological) then biologic?
Oh and i assume that xxy means: Since you have xx (female) but also a 'y' (male) you both feel male and female... but mb im misinformed on this? (didnt payed much attention in biology lessons haha)
2) This might be different on indivudual basis. But how does a intersex person knows he/she is? Is it based on a thinking of: hmmm i look like a boy but i can emphasis with girls also quite a lot and i like classical girly things and at the same time boys stuff. I might be intersex.
Or can you feel it deeper in the core. Like a feeling in your soul.
Melkezadek
Member
I feel like there is a lot of talking past each other going on in this thread.
From what I gather, at least as far as I understand, because gender isn't as binary as we've understood it in the past. For that reason, giving the player the choice between male or female is not only limiting, but insulting to those who don't fit in either of those labels.
Rather than asking for gender, character creators should be left more open ended. In the same way I can choose whatever skin color for my character than being forced into options such as "African/black", "Pacific Islander/Asian" and "Caucasian".
From what I gather, at least as far as I understand, because gender isn't as binary as we've understood it in the past. For that reason, giving the player the choice between male or female is not only limiting, but insulting to those who don't fit in either of those labels.
Rather than asking for gender, character creators should be left more open ended. In the same way I can choose whatever skin color for my character than being forced into options such as "African/black", "Pacific Islander/Asian" and "Caucasian".
Maybe it's outdated to have a character straight up asking it like that, but if you think about it they're basically asking the player's preferred pronouns, which is weird because absolutely everyone in the world of pokemon games speak to you neutrally with little to no exceptions.
It's funny because there is no neutral option despite the fact that the game defaults to speaking to you neutrally.
Solution?
Don't have a character ask your gender, just start up the game at a customization screen and just let pokemon be pokemon and have everyone address you neutrally.
Instead of having the proffesor ask if you're a boy or a girl have him go like "what do you look like?" and pop up the customization screen.
It's funny because there is no neutral option despite the fact that the game defaults to speaking to you neutrally.
Solution?
Don't have a character ask your gender, just start up the game at a customization screen and just let pokemon be pokemon and have everyone address you neutrally.
Instead of having the proffesor ask if you're a boy or a girl have him go like "what do you look like?" and pop up the customization screen.
who said that?
and it's always nice to have more options, wouldn't you think so?
Especially in an RPG.
again, i find it super weird that all of a sudden, just because it fits our argument, we're saying "player self insertion in an RPG where you are a silent protagonist? nah, doesn't happen, i don't do it, i don't see why anyone would. i always call my trainer Ash!"
When it's about issues like these, everyone grabs the "lol they're just games" dismissal stick from the bottom of the drawer.
that is quite literally what most people who aren't some sort of "SJW-STRAWMAN" are asking for. "other" "neither" "i'd rather not say"
it creates implicit inclusion by lack of an exclusive choice.
The only "issues" this would create are mostly linguistic ones (pronouns) but those should be easy to solve. (depending on language). It's similar to the "women are so hard to animate" excuse
Well, it's a bit of chicken/egg dichotomy. It would take a developer who has this awareness to make his case to his/her superiors. Ultimately (especially Nintendo) most corporations will still follow societal norms to ensure their product appeals to as wide a base as possible. Once society gains greater awareness, the individual will be able to do more. Of course, indies have already embraced these ideas.
I wonder how we can have society have greater awareness, wait! i know, how about we increase awareness through pop culture? like, using tv shows, books, movies, music and videogames!
Firefoxprime
Banned
Hmm. Welp, I read the thread title AND the OP, and I was a bit surprised pertaining their concerns. So much so, that I had to re-read it to fully understand what's going on here.
Appearantly there are many individuals who don't feel connected to either sex/gender? So like somewhere in the middle? Its definetely not my norm, but ignorance doesn't really help anyone.
Ah, good point. Yet I think many people desire to connect themselves through their characters. But the more rare the individuals position(best word I could think of :/) is, the less likely they'll have representation. Atleast from what I'm seeing anyways.
I was literally responding to someone who said the boy characters looked like girls because they didn't have short hair and looked wimpy. I'm literally agreeing with you. I don't get what you're on about.
Personally I don't think there's any need to complicate a very simple questions for a game focused at kids and would effect a very, very small minority. I don't think it is offensive either to generalize the gender question in a game to 'boy/girl' and if someone is upset over it they are being overly sensitive to something that is clearly not intended to offend anyone.
purseowner
Member
Why do you lack empathy for the minority that you acknowledge exists?
Mechanized
Member
I feel like this is expecting way too much out of something so innocuous that it is irrelevant.
yeah, must have totally misread / misinterpreted your post, apologies. I'm kinda tired.
correct
this can be a result of them having been born intersex, or a simply an inability to identify fully with a certain end of the gender spectrum.
Genderqueer, non-binary - there's multiple words for it.
Belgian Dude
Member
I agree with you, but that's what the "chicken/egg" problem the person you quoted was talking about, I think. You use pop culture to create awareness but the creators of pop culture won't use the medium to create awareness until the world around them is aware enough to accept it.
Of course, it's not an endless, hopeless loop, it just takes a couple of people standing out and taking the first step.
E: And, related to the topic, Pokemon would be an amazing one for that.
Giftofgab24
Member
What can you identify as if not a boy or girl? This is where I'm getting confused. I understand there's transgender people that would like to be respresented, but don't they tend to identify as one or the other?
Because this isn't a hardship.
Edit: Since I guess this could have been misunderstood, let me give more detail:
There are cases where actual issues exist, but this isn't one of them.
Would I be upset if they gave more options? Or allowed characters of either gender to dress however they want? Not at all. Yeah, that'd be great and would work towards what this minority wants and harms no one. However the way it's handled now doesn't cause any harm or offense towards anyone either.
Which is why we have these discussions, people learn, and hopefully developers will make changes accordingly.
Shit, people demand a ton of really dumb stuff from game companies, why not this?
No it is not outdated.
For all intents and purposes it's asking if you have a dick or a vagina. That's it.
For all intents and purposes it's asking if you have a dick or a vagina. That's it.
Bingo
purseowner
Member
You seriously think that non-binary Pokémon fans being forced to choose between a binary that they don't identify with and misgenders them isn't an issue?
Sonic Boom
Neo Member
*waves*
Hi back.
Hi back.
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