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DF Retro: Metroid Prime - Nintendo's first-person masterpiece

I've only ever played Prime 2, which I've heard is a bit of a black sheep of the franchise.

Always wanted to play Prime 1 but Metroid Prime Trilogy isn't cheap physically and no way I'm buying it digitally.

And holy shit is Metroid Prime amazing for 2002. Even moreso than Rogue Leader the year before...

...or even Halo in some ways considering the Xbox was more beefy.
 
Ummm, people mocked the GC for being underpowered back in the day. To this day, there are people that thinks the PS2 is more powerful than the GC.

On paper, the specs were very modest.

I think this misconception came about because Sony and Microsoft chose to print the theoretical maximum number of polygons their respective systems were capable of outputting on their spec sheets whereas Nintendo only chose to print numbers that could realistically be achieved in an actual game. It made the Gamecube look far more modest.
 
I wish the video focused on game design rather than technical specifications. Metroid Prime is not brilliant because it has a good framerate. It's brilliant because of the beautiful, intertwining balance of world design, gameplay, atmosphere, art direction, and audio. Each element builds upon and interacts with the other to a degree of excellence that has never again been achieved. Texture maps and wireframes are kind of neat I guess, but I'd like a deconstruction of design theory.

That said I don't follow this channel, so maybe he's not trying to do anything other than take notes on some tech specs.

If something i think the video spent too much time on how it felt good and how was a good game and too little on technical stuff.
I mean everyone that has played the game knows how and why it is a good game, from a DF video i expect even more technical stuff.

Since i know dark10x reads the posts in this thread i want to suggest a video not on a game in particular but on the Sega Model 3 and the timeframe it was released.
 
Ummm, people mocked the GC for being underpowered back in the day. To this day, there are people that thinks the PS2 is more powerful than the GC.

On paper, the specs were very modest.

I don't remember this... I thought everyone knew that XBox was most powerful but GC was not far behind.
 
I don't remember this... I thought everyone knew that XBox was most powerful but GC was not far behind.

Informed people knew.

And yes, Nintendo always posted real world performance instead of theoretical numbers like Sony and MS. For example, the PS2 claims 77 million polygons while the GC claimed 6-12 million polygons with all effects turned on.

Oh and people like to claim the GC has to be more powerful than the PS2 because it was released a year later. The reality was the GC was released a year later because the games weren't ready, not the hardware. The hardware was ready.
 
If something i think the video spent too much time on how it felt good and how was a good game and too little on technical stuff.
I mean everyone that has played the game knows how and why it is a good game, from a DF video i expect even more technical stuff.

Since i know dark10x reads the posts in this thread i want to suggest a video not on a game in particular but on the Sega Model 3 and the timeframe it was released.
I agree that would be good.

The thing about games like this is that there just isn't a lot of info out there and, with these custom engines, it's difficult to infer too much without speaking with people that worked on the game. I had some additional thoughts but didn't want to include things that might be incorrect.

It's tricky with these videos for that reason since, for some retro games, it's possible to delve deep but, with others, there's only so much you can infer from playing with it. Would be so great if I could convince some developers to chat with me about these older games.

Oh and people like to claim the GC has to be more powerful than the PS2 because it was released a year later. The reality was the GC was released a year later because the games weren't ready, not the hardware. The hardware was ready.
The hardware is extremely capable and quite balanced. Each system of that generation had its own unique advantages but the GameCube was a beautifully engineered machine.

It was capable of a great deal of things that PlayStation 2 was not, that's for certain.

I wish the video focused on game design rather than technical specifications.
I try to strike a balance but the idea is to focus more on the tech. I like to appreciate games for what they achieved technically since it's more in line with the channel itself.

There are mountains of retro content available on YouTube right now and the vast majority is focused entirely on just the game itself. I'm trying my best to do something a little different which is why I've also been mixing in less popular games like Crusader into the mix.

That said, I love to discuss game design as well since I do have a lot of thoughts to share on those matters.
 
Is a physical copy of the trilogy really expensive? If so, I'm so glad I was able to pick up mine for 20€ back in 2012!!

Yeah, it's one of the more valuable Wii games out there, especially if it's in the original SteelBook packaging and has the mini-art book. Gamestop did a reprint of it, but it was in a regular Wii case and lacked the art book.

I'd argue that the downloadable version of the game is the best way to experience it, since the load time reductions are so significant, particularly for Prime 3.
 
Yeah, it's one of the more valuable Wii games out there, especially if it's in the original SteelBook packaging and has the mini-art book. Gamestop did a reprint of it, but it was in a regular Wii case and lacked the art book.

I'd argue that the downloadable version of the game is the best way to experience it, since the load time reductions are so significant, particularly for Prime 3.

I'm in France so I have the art book, but a slideable cardboard cover that slides over the normal Wii case. Everything is in French.
 
I don't remember this... I thought everyone knew that XBox was most powerful but GC was not far behind.

Yeah this has always been the general consciousness. Even on paper, the GameCube falls between the original Xbox and PS2 in most respects. The Gamecube's greatest strength was its ability to stream geometry, textures and data at a higher rate than the other two systems. The DF Retro video really points out the large number of polygons that Samus was made out of (nearly 10k), which was crazy for 2002. I'm pretty sure it can throw more on screen than the PS2 and not suffer from heavy slowdown. Not that the PS2 was terrible at producing a lot of triangles on screen, it was great for its day. But the GameCube rivals or outclasses it here.

On the downside, the Gamecube was generally known for having much slower memory bandwidth than the PS2, which limited the game textures a bit. But good developers on the GameCube generally worked around this by using the TEV shaders and just using a little more geometry.

The original Xbox was just a brute force machine for its day. It had a nice big single pool of 64MB's of memory (a lot in comparison to the other two systems), a general purpose 32bit Pentium class x86 CPU at a high clock rate and a Geforce 3 level graphics card (which was also good for its time).

There are arguments that the GameCube can compete with the original Xbox rather well, and I do believe that is true. But I think the GameCube is a case where the developers really have to optimize the machine to get it to do so. The Xbox was quite powerful on a general "on-paper" level.
 
I'm in France so I have the art book, but a slideable cardboard cover that slides over the normal Wii case. Everything is in French.

I'm speaking solely of the US release, so it's possible that may have just been a thing for that region.

Japan never even got it, as their Prime 1 and Prime 2 releases were a part of the New Play Control series and sold individually..
 
Haven't watched it yet, but holy hell, thinking about Metroid Prime as retro makes me feel really, really old.

Played through the game again earlier this year on the GC. It's still unbelievably good. I think I actually appreciate it more now than I did in 2002, honestly.
 
There are arguments that the GameCube can compete with the original Xbox rather well, and I do believe that is true. But I think the GameCube is a case where the developers really have to optimize the machine to get it to do so. The Xbox was quite powerful on a general "on-paper" level.
Xbox was definitely the strongest but also seemed to encourage less optimization (which I say just based on the end results).

There were a LOT of games on Xbox which ran somewhat poorly or felt unbalanced. They might have a cool shader here or there but suffered from other issues. I used to jokingly refer to janky menu systems as "Xbox menus". You know the type - developers would use a Bink movie as a menu background complete with improper frame pacing which would skip and stutter as you transitioned between different menu levels. This was used so often in so many Xbox games.

...but obviously, that was NOT the fault of the hardware at all.

When exploited, Xbox could produce marvelous results and the most optimized games were real superstars. Ninja Gaiden, for instance, is just nuts for the time with huge poly counts, plenty of neat shaders, high res textures galore, a perfect 60fps, huge streamed levels, etc. Sega did a lot of great stuff on there too.

I think some Xbox games pushed things TOO far, though. Riddick is incredibly impressive for its day BUT it made a lot of sacrifices to get there - it was one of the first games I recall with an adaptive resolution but it often dropped way below 640x480 resulting in a very blocky looking game. Performance wasn't that stable either. Or Halo 2 - again, very very impressive tech but the streaming issues were a real problem and the frame-rate just wasn't that great. These were all games that could not exist on PS2 or GameCube, I would argue, but they don't hold up that well today due to those issues.

Those same types of problems plague so many 360 and PS3 games as well. Bad frame-rates, poor presentations, choppy menus, badly compressed videos, etc. Lots of little things that add up to something that feels impressive in its day but ultimately ages poorly.

Games like Metroid Prime, Ninja Gaiden, and Metal Gear Solid 2 are the real super-stars. They exploit the hardware to just the right level producing beautiful visuals while maintaining super smooth performance. They all hold up beautifully in 2016 due to this while, in comparison, many PS3 and 360 games look and run like garbage in comparison despite pushing more advanced tech.

I do feel Nintendo's approach is the right one for console gaming. If you look back at its Wii U games, you can see it all over - so many 60fps or, at least, rock solid 30fps games. They aren't cutting edge but they use the tech to produce highly attractive games that run like a dream. These games will stand the test of time.

A recent example of this is something like DOOM. It's a beautiful game and it runs basically perfectly on all platforms. It feels great to play as well. It is a game, like Metroid Prime and the others, that will hold up in 15 years. id Software absolutely NAILED it in a way that so few others are doing these days.
 
Xbox was definitely the strongest but also seemed to encourage less optimization (which I say just based on the end results).

There were a LOT of games on Xbox which ran somewhat poorly or felt unbalanced. They might have a cool shader here or there but suffered from other issues. I used to jokingly refer to janky menu systems as "Xbox menus". You know the type - developers would use a Bink movie as a menu background complete with improper frame pacing which would skip and stutter as you transitioned between different menu levels. This was used so often in so many Xbox games.

...but obviously, that was NOT the fault of the hardware at all.

When exploited, Xbox could produce marvelous results and the most optimized games were real superstars. Ninja Gaiden, for instance, is just nuts for the time with huge poly counts, plenty of neat shaders, high res textures galore, a perfect 60fps, huge streamed levels, etc. Sega did a lot of great stuff on there too.

I think some Xbox games pushed things TOO far, though. Riddick is incredibly impressive for its day BUT it made a lot of sacrifices to get there - it was one of the first games I recall with an adaptive resolution but it often dropped way below 640x480 resulting in a very blocky looking game. Performance wasn't that stable either. Or Halo 2 - again, very very impressive tech but the streaming issues were a real problem and the frame-rate just wasn't that great. These were all games that could not exist on PS2 or GameCube, I would argue, but they don't hold up that well today due to those issues.

Those same types of problems plague so many 360 and PS3 games as well. Bad frame-rates, poor presentations, choppy menus, badly compressed videos, etc. Lots of little things that add up to something that feels impressive in its day but ultimately ages poorly.

Games like Metroid Prime, Ninja Gaiden, and Metal Gear Solid 2 are the real super-stars. They exploit the hardware to just the right level producing beautiful visuals while maintaining super smooth performance. They all hold up beautifully in 2016 due to this while, in comparison, many PS3 and 360 games look and run like garbage in comparison despite pushing more advanced tech.

I do feel Nintendo's approach is the right one for console gaming. If you look back at its Wii U games, you can see it all over - so many 60fps or, at least, rock solid 30fps games. They aren't cutting edge but they use the tech to produce highly attractive games that run like a dream. These games will stand the test of time.

A recent example of this is something like DOOM. It's a beautiful game and it runs basically perfectly on all platforms. It feels great to play as well. It is a game, like Metroid Prime and the others, that will hold up in 15 years. id Software absolutely NAILED it in a way that so few others are doing these days.

Since you mentioned it, do you have any plans of doing MGS2 in the future? Given that it was practically made by an advanced alien race in 2001 with tech that even PC gamers weren't experiencing, the tech analysis alone would be fascinating, to say nothing of its rather storied history with its various ports.
 
Xbox was definitely the strongest but also seemed to encourage less optimization (which I say just based on the end results).

There were a LOT of games on Xbox which ran somewhat poorly or felt unbalanced. They might have a cool shader here or there but suffered from other issues. I used to jokingly refer to janky menu systems as "Xbox menus". You know the type - developers would use a Bink movie as a menu background complete with improper frame pacing which would skip and stutter as you transitioned between different menu levels. This was used so often in so many Xbox games.

...but obviously, that was NOT the fault of the hardware at all.

When exploited, Xbox could produce marvelous results and the most optimized games were real superstars. Ninja Gaiden, for instance, is just nuts for the time with huge poly counts, plenty of neat shaders, high res textures galore, a perfect 60fps, huge streamed levels, etc. Sega did a lot of great stuff on there too.

I think some Xbox games pushed things TOO far, though. Riddick is incredibly impressive for its day BUT it made a lot of sacrifices to get there - it was one of the first games I recall with an adaptive resolution but it often dropped way below 640x480 resulting in a very blocky looking game. Performance wasn't that stable either. Or Halo 2 - again, very very impressive tech but the streaming issues were a real problem and the frame-rate just wasn't that great. These were all games that could not exist on PS2 or GameCube, I would argue, but they don't hold up that well today due to those issues.

Those same types of problems plague so many 360 and PS3 games as well. Bad frame-rates, poor presentations, choppy menus, badly compressed videos, etc. Lots of little things that add up to something that feels impressive in its day but ultimately ages poorly.

Games like Metroid Prime, Ninja Gaiden, and Metal Gear Solid 2 are the real super-stars. They exploit the hardware to just the right level producing beautiful visuals while maintaining super smooth performance. They all hold up beautifully in 2016 due to this while, in comparison, many PS3 and 360 games look and run like garbage in comparison despite pushing more advanced tech.

I do feel Nintendo's approach is the right one for console gaming. If you look back at its Wii U games, you can see it all over - so many 60fps or, at least, rock solid 30fps games. They aren't cutting edge but they use the tech to produce highly attractive games that run like a dream. These games will stand the test of time.

A recent example of this is something like DOOM. It's a beautiful game and it runs basically perfectly on all platforms. It feels great to play as well. It is a game, like Metroid Prime and the others, that will hold up in 15 years. id Software absolutely NAILED it in a way that so few others are doing these days.

This is all so true in my opinion. So many great games that stand the test of time, despite being on "inferior" hardware.

On a side note John, which current gen game do you feel is the most impressive from a technical perspective?
 
I agree that would be good.

The thing about games like this is that there just isn't a lot of info out there and, with these custom engines, it's difficult to infer too much without speaking with people that worked on the game. I had some additional thoughts but didn't want to include things that might be incorrect.

It's tricky with these videos for that reason since, for some retro games, it's possible to delve deep but, with others, there's only so much you can infer from playing with it. Would be so great if I could convince some developers to chat with me about these older games.

I hope my post didn't come off as an aggressive type of criticism, i know that it can be very hard to get informations for certain games and that DF Retro is still in an experimental phase, it's just that i expect the best from you since you have made some absolutely fantastic videos on the matter like the Symphony of the Night or the Shenmue ones.
I certainly appreciate the work behind each video.
 
The wii pointer controls are amazing, and much preferred once I'd played the wii remasters. It feels amazingly intuitive to just point and shoot, feels like your arm is in direct control of samus'
 
The wii pointer controls are amazing, and much preferred once I'd played the wii remasters. It feels amazingly intuitive to just point and shoot, feels like your arm is in direct control of samus'

It's like the one of few games where the pointer controls aren't shit. That wins a big thumbs up of approval for me.
 
I played through MP1 with the Wii controls... it was alright, but the game wasn't designed for it. There's something way more satisfying about clicking the L button to lock on to enemies and then going to town on them. I ended up rebuying the GC versions of MP1 and 2 as a result.
 
I'm glad this was made. I recently played much of Metroid Prime (Trilogy) with Ishiikura + DX12, and the experience has been wonderful. If anyone has a Steam Controller, I recommend doing a mixed controller + mouse (cursor) setup with a Mouse Region SC config. It's just so good.

(Ishiikura also works wonders on Mario Galaxy)
 
When will developers learn just how important framerate is?
Amen.

The wireframe view was really cool.
Indeed.

I never got very far into the game, if never played many FPS back then so I physically want good enough. I should go back.

Agreed that it still looks great today. If Switch games look as good as this at 60fps I'll be happy.

Great video. I'd like to see one about a smaller cult game. Maybe something like Umihara Kawase, or Kuru Kuru Kururin?
 
Since you mentioned it, do you have any plans of doing MGS2 in the future? Given that it was practically made by an advanced alien race in 2001 with tech that even PC gamers weren't experiencing, the tech analysis alone would be fascinating, to say nothing of its rather storied history with its various ports.

MGS2's story is also something that makes more and more sense every year too. Cyber espionage and proxy wars influencing the presidential election. People living on their own little echo chambers afforded to them by only contacting people with like minds on the internet.

Its all predictable stuff from any other medium but you don't find many games that dealt with it.
 
Since you mentioned it, do you have any plans of doing MGS2 in the future? Given that it was practically made by an advanced alien race in 2001 with tech that even PC gamers weren't experiencing, the tech analysis alone would be fascinating, to say nothing of its rather storied history with its various ports.

I would love this.
 
Is there some kind of performance/quality difference in emulation between Prime GC and Prime Wii?

I would like to know this as well. My hunch tells me widescreen HD will not work perfectly with the GameCube version but I'd love to be proven wrong.
 
I'd like to give this game another shot one of these days. Picked up the Trilogy set many a moon ago, and I never really got all that far in the game. Someday, maybe.
 
I never got very far into the game, if never played many FPS back then so I physically want good enough. I should go back.
There's basically no skill crossover between Metroid Prime (at least on GameCube) and FPS games. It's one of the reasons people insist it's a "First Person Adventure" instead. In terms of mechanics and controls it's very, very different in almost every way.
 
I would like to know this as well. My hunch tells me widescreen HD will not work perfectly with the GameCube version but I'd love to be proven wrong.

I'm pretty sure it works fine. HUD elements will get stretched, but that's not a big deal--I mean, it happens in Corruption and Trilogy when you have them output 16:9 on the actual Wii.
 
Is there some kind of performance/quality difference in emulation between Prime GC and Prime Wii?

Not really. Trilogy was a bit of a pain to get working correctly before Dolphin 5.0, but I believe those issues are fixed. Prime suffers a bit of microstuttering every now and then but those can be fixed as well.

Otherwise there really isn't a difference between the two quality/performance wise. There are some graphical elements missing in the Wii version, particles and also the Ice Beam frosting over the arm cannon was removed.
 
best game of it's generation

I had no idea it was 60fps, I did not pay attention to that back then, today that's very important for me
 
Awesome retrospective. Personally, I think MP is one of the crowning achievements of the medium. I'd even go so far as to say it's better than Super Metroid.
 
Can dolphin display how many polygons are being shown on screen? If so I think you could run Rogue squadron 3 through it and you'll get your answer.

If you enable "Show Statistics" in the Advanced tab of the Graphics Settings menu then it displays the number of primitives per frame, among other things
 
Xbox was definitely the strongest but also seemed to encourage less optimization (which I say just based on the end results).

There were a LOT of games on Xbox which ran somewhat poorly or felt unbalanced. They might have a cool shader here or there but suffered from other issues. I used to jokingly refer to janky menu systems as "Xbox menus". You know the type - developers would use a Bink movie as a menu background complete with improper frame pacing which would skip and stutter as you transitioned between different menu levels. This was used so often in so many Xbox games.

...but obviously, that was NOT the fault of the hardware at all.

When exploited, Xbox could produce marvelous results and the most optimized games were real superstars. Ninja Gaiden, for instance, is just nuts for the time with huge poly counts, plenty of neat shaders, high res textures galore, a perfect 60fps, huge streamed levels, etc. Sega did a lot of great stuff on there too.

I think some Xbox games pushed things TOO far, though. Riddick is incredibly impressive for its day BUT it made a lot of sacrifices to get there - it was one of the first games I recall with an adaptive resolution but it often dropped way below 640x480 resulting in a very blocky looking game. Performance wasn't that stable either. Or Halo 2 - again, very very impressive tech but the streaming issues were a real problem and the frame-rate just wasn't that great. These were all games that could not exist on PS2 or GameCube, I would argue, but they don't hold up that well today due to those issues.

Those same types of problems plague so many 360 and PS3 games as well. Bad frame-rates, poor presentations, choppy menus, badly compressed videos, etc. Lots of little things that add up to something that feels impressive in its day but ultimately ages poorly.

Games like Metroid Prime, Ninja Gaiden, and Metal Gear Solid 2 are the real super-stars. They exploit the hardware to just the right level producing beautiful visuals while maintaining super smooth performance. They all hold up beautifully in 2016 due to this while, in comparison, many PS3 and 360 games look and run like garbage in comparison despite pushing more advanced tech.

I do feel Nintendo's approach is the right one for console gaming. If you look back at its Wii U games, you can see it all over - so many 60fps or, at least, rock solid 30fps games. They aren't cutting edge but they use the tech to produce highly attractive games that run like a dream. These games will stand the test of time.

A recent example of this is something like DOOM. It's a beautiful game and it runs basically perfectly on all platforms. It feels great to play as well. It is a game, like Metroid Prime and the others, that will hold up in 15 years. id Software absolutely NAILED it in a way that so few others are doing these days.

Didn't some main Metroid Prime guy leave Retro to go work on Doom?
 
DOOM definitely gave me a weird Metroid Prime tickle in the first couple hours. I think that dark10x is onto something with it having to do with how pleasant and responsive the player movement feels. I knew in 2002 that MP was going to continue to impress years and years down the road, and I agree that DOOM will be similarly acclaimed over time.
 
Thank you for the video.

Metroid Prime is one of the few games that for me is a Masterpiece and where that label truly applies.
 
I would like to know this as well. My hunch tells me widescreen HD will not work perfectly with the GameCube version but I'd love to be proven wrong.

I'm pretty sure it works fine. HUD elements will get stretched, but that's not a big deal--I mean, it happens in Corruption and Trilogy when you have them output 16:9 on the actual Wii.


Actually, since the game doesn't have widescreen support, the emulator has to "hack in" a 16:9 mode. It kinda works, but you see some garbled visuals on the edges of the screen when you move around.
 
Actually, since the game doesn't have widescreen support, the emulator has to "hack in" a 16:9 mode. It kinda works, but you see some garbled visuals on the edges of the screen when you move around.

There are AR codes that you enter to force the game to render those areas.
 
The music is incredible. Would love an honest remaster.

The sequels were butt though.

Prime Trilogy on the NX hype. Granted, how on earth do you make Prime 3 work with traditional controls? I suppose you could keep the traditional lock on combat and use the right stick to cycle between targets

DOOM definitely gave me a weird Metroid Prime tickle in the first couple hours. I think that dark10x is onto something with it having to do with how pleasant and responsive the player movement feels. I knew in 2002 that MP was going to continue to impress years and years down the road, and I agree that DOOM will be similarly acclaimed over time.

They both strike the perfect balance between giving your character weight, while still letting you be in complete control. That's the best part about Prime if we ignore all the other amazing aspects, it's super immersive, you're not just controlling Samus, you are Samus. I guess in a way DOOM gets that right too since DOOMGuy is a perfect analogue for the player, he's just there to fuck demons up.
 
Wonderful episode. I would love to know why the water ripple effect was removed from the Trilogy.
I remember some talk at the time suggesting that they removed some effects and replaced some in order to fit the 3 games on one disk. So it was about size maybe? Not sure how true this is.


Ummm, people mocked the GC for being underpowered back in the day. To this day, there are people that thinks the PS2 is more powerful than the GC.

On paper, the specs were very modest.
That's not how I remember it. The Gamecube was widely admired in the industry at the time for being able to push out visuals practically on par with Xbox from such a little box. A very efficient and well designed unit.

The only people who would have claimed PS2 was more capable than Gamecube would have been Sony fanboys.

Xbox--->Gamecube------------------->PS2

That was the popular consensus at the time (of course it didn't matter sales wise for Sony).
 
Prime Trilogy on the NX hype. Granted, how on earth do you make Prime 3 work with traditional controls? I suppose you could keep the traditional lock on combat and use the right stick to cycle between targets

There are so many interactive elements in the game that require the pointer's precision that I'm not sure how they could be adapted to a regular controller. Hell, you would have to significantly rework the Mogenar fight because of how much it relies on the speed of the pointer.
 
Great video Dark, I didn't know there was dialogue hidden on the disc that was never used or that there was a different opening track for the demo.

You're 100% spot on with your comments on games developed to really take advantage of fixed hardware while not going overboard and tanking performance and compromising the product. I wish more games were designed with that philosophy in mind so years from now they're still a blast to play instead of remaining a relic of what was impressive visually for its time but nothing else.
 
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