United States Election: Nov. 8, 2016 |OT| Hate Trumps Love

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commedieu said:
The third party candidates aren't qualified to be president of the United states, this time around.

Bernie would have had a chance, someone like him at least.

You have to also keep in mind the fact that republicans have ignored/declined most of Obama's/democratic wills. A third party candidate would face this and worse, and likely from both parties.

A third party needs to start from the states up, and then presidency. I see most realistic people saying this.
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"But the state congress is controlled by *insert major party* they'll never get anything done."
 
Calling people stupid only causes people to dig deeper. If you actually want a dialogue with people, don't talk down to them.
 
CrunchyFrog said:
"But the state congress is controlled by *insert major party* they'll never get anything done."
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I don't know why you're throwing out wild speculation. I just answered how there will be an actual third party. A president alone isn't going to create a third party.

Democrats got things done. Like taking out bin laden, and allowing social progress for homosexuals. If you actually look at facts, and aren't afraid of them like republicans, you can see progress is made with a liberal mindset in this nation. It does need a healthy balance and that's why I'd like to see a third party. As all of the above was done on the backdrop of drone strikes. The dnc has it too easy as the gop is literally batshit insane.

Morons will always be here with us. We just have to out number them.


EleventhHourSuperpower said:
Calling people stupid only causes people to dig deeper. If you actually want a dialogue with people, don't talk down to them.
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Stupid people don't understand talking, and that's what led to them being stupid. Coddling morons never leads to anything productive. Morons have to seek help, to get help. You can't force discussion on the stupid.

"This is a fact" is met with drool and anger. no time for that. Have fun being left behind.

People are stupid for voting for a fascist with no plan besides "believe me." Full stop.
 
Regulus Tera said:
At worst, Clinton will be another run of the mill politician whose interests are tied with Wall Street's. You know, the likes that have already led the White House. The US knows how to work with those.

At worst, Trump will engage in a trade war with China, cut off bilateral relations with Mexico, one of the US' biggest economic partners, normalize harassment to minorities the likes we haven't since before the sixties, and play into Putin's hands regarding international conflicts.

They are not equally bad even if you don't hold a favourable opinion of Clinton. Voting for Trump is an affront on humans who actually believe that empathy and cooperation between diverse groups of people is mutually beneficial.
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This, this and this!
Well put and I hope anyone undecided in this forum reads and understands.
 
encephalon said:
I don't want to go back to a US that has a conservative supreme court, but I guess it's essentially inevitable, since they won't ever allow a Democrat to nominate judges.
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There's a good chance the Senate goes blue this time around. Of course, that would entail people voting down ballot instead of sitting at home because they believe Hillary and Trump are two sides of the same coin.

And even if the Senate remains Republican, there's no way they can drag that forever without holding their reelection campaigns at a severe risk in upcoming midterms.
 
CrunchyFrog said:
I realize there's a lot at stake in this election, but based on rhetoric thrown around here it sounds like a lot of people advocate for a de facto ban all third party candidates, which I find deeply troubling. If they can't get a majority, someone tell me, then, when it would EVER be convenient to vote third party?
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When you live in a state that is completely uncompetitive, especially big ones. Wyoming, West Virginia, Oklahoma, Maryland, Vermont and Hawaii are examples of that. The District of Colombia, while not a state, is so lopsided a third-party vote wouldn't matter.

People who are thrilled about McMullin possibly winning Utah and scold anyone who votes third-party is a hypocrite. I don't recommend it, but there are clearly circumstances where it's understandable why someone would. HRC has done nothing serious that warrants voting third-party IMO.
 
Man, this entire week is gonna be nuts, but the next three days will be ridiculous. We're going to be hearing some insane last minute Hail Mary shit from the Trump camp.
 
commedieu said:
Stupid people don't understand talking, and that's what led to them being stupid. Coddling morons never leads to anything productive. Morons have to seek help, to get help. You can't force discussion on the stupid.

"This is a fact" is met with drool and anger. no time for that. Have fun being left behind.
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This kind of talking makes these people feel you think you're superior and talking down to them.

If you cannot even be diplomatic, then don't be surprised when there's push back. It's not good to be antagonistic, and "this is a fact" is very often used by people for non-facts so it doesn't suddenly cause people to believe you.
 
Kthulhu said:
Oh yeah we can. Unless you have warped morals that makes you think all the things Trump has said and done are equal to Clinton's, or you haven't been following the election at all, there is not a single reason why you should think she is equal to him.
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Do you think there's a single conceivable reason why someone would passionately dislike Hillary?

If you don't, then this discussion is dead from the outset. If you do, and you also accept that many people vote based on their emotions, then it shouldn't be surprising. Even if you intellectually acknowledge that Trump is worse, voting for Hillary may actually not feel any better.

It's just a human thing. And if you really have that kind of emotional barrier to voting for Hillary, but still decide against voting for Trump, you're basically okay with me. Even if I find your thinking horribly incorrect.
 
gutter_trash said:
Keighleigh, Jeffrey Lord and Corey meltdown LIVE
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I plan to watch Fox News all day election day because no matter who wins that channel is going to be hilarious, just like the last two elections.

Wallach said:
on election day colbert is going to be doing a huge show on showtime specifically so he can do some cable TV shit

stewart is probably gonna be there
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oh wow that's awesome, I'll definitely have to tune in.
 
gutter_trash said:
what the hell?
false relativism

Clinton is the most progressive Liberal Presidential candidate with a sure shot of actually winning the Oval Office

saying the she is a small (c) conservative is non-nonsensical

she may be a little Hawkish on foreign affairs (that's not a bad thing).
but on domestic issues, healthcare, childcare, education, equal pay... she is MORE Liberal than Barack Obama
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Calm down, I'm not saying she's super conservative and I'm saying she's more liberal than Harper. Plus Harper isn't that conservative on social issues, really.

Cerium said:
kcupUkG.gif
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Post that once Clinton is elected only!
Ozigizo said:
All of his guns.
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I kind of hope that if Clinton wins, she enacts the harshest gun control measures ever and Team Alucard and all the others like him lose their guns. It won't ever happen but fuck people who care more about guns than people.
 
EleventhHourSuperpower said:
This kind of talking makes these people feel you think you're superior and talking down to them.

If you cannot even be diplomatic, then don't be surprised when there's push back.
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I'm not surprised that stupid people push back because they fear minorities and knowledge, I'm used to it. I am superior, knowing that women have rights, and not all mexicans are rapists.

There is nothing diplomatic about donald, grab them by the pussy, trump's campaign, his surrogates, or his supporters. So please stop trying to warn of the frailty of political discourse. Or the sanctity of the Trump troglodyte. People yell " go home nigger" at his rallies after his supporters punch protestors. Trump says he will cover legal fees for violence associated with getting rid of protestors.

Backwards pro sexist/racism/anti intellectuald don't need to have a platform. There is nothing to be gained from hearing out the white supremacists that endorse trump.

Stupid people should feel as if I'm making them feel inferior. They are for having disgusting wants in this world for their fellow citizens.


Edit.

I agree with your opinion, bit not when fascism is on the line. No chance in hell. People didn't just wake up supporting trump. This has been in the works by the gop for decades.

I know stupid people. some of my best friends are stupid. I don't think you have some sort of deeper knowledge of the dumb than most.
 
commedieu said:
I don't know why you're throwing out wild speculation. I just answered how there will be an actual third party. A president alone isn't going to create a third party.

Democrats got things done. Like taking out bin laden, and allowing social progress for homosexuals. If you actually look at facts, and aren't afraid of them like republicans, you can see progress is made with a liberal mindset in this nation. It does need a healthy balance and that's why I'd like to see a third party. As all of the above was done on the backdrop of drone strikes. The dnc has it too easy as the gop is literally batshit insane.

Morons will always be here with us. We just have to out number them.





Stupid people don't understand talking, and that's what led to them being stupid. Coddling morons never leads to anything productive. Morons have to seek help, to get help. You can't force discussion on the stupid.
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I don't think anyone who votes for a third party necessarily expects to win this cycle, and regardless that's not the point. A third party candidate could very well win a state in Utah. Is that not a politically profound enough message to justify its own existence? There's an unhealthy bent towards rampant pragmatism here that seems to run exactly counter to the end result that people around here claim they want which is better parties/candidates via political competition. I heard the same thing against Sanders who basically did exactly this in the primaries by running the long odds against Hillary and SIGNIFICANTLY affecting the forthgoing party platform. If that's not proof of the system working as it should I don't know what is.
 
Nerokis said:
Do you think there's a single conceivable reason why someone would passionately dislike Hillary?

If you don't, then this discussion is dead from the outset. If you do, and you also accept that many people vote based on their emotions, then it shouldn't be surprising. Even if you intellectually acknowledge that Trump is worse, voting for Hillary may actually not feel any better.

It's just a human thing. And if you really have that kind of emotional barrier to voting for Hillary, but still decide against voting for Trump, you're basically okay with me. Even if I find your thinking horribly incorrect.
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Then they're idiots. I'm not asking someone to build me a rocket, I'm asking people to take an informed look at the two candidates, make an apples to apples comparison, and make a logical decisions on which one will be better for the country and for them. There is no scenario where that leads to Trump being equal or better than Clinton.
 
Kthulhu said:
I agree, but I think we should at least sanction Russia until Putin gets his act together. I don't think Trump would continue those sanctions.
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Sanctioning one of the Big 5 sounds like a geopolitical crisis in the making. You know, the kind that ends up in nuclear winter.
 
CrunchyFrog said:
I don't think anyone who votes for a third party necessarily expects to win this cycle, and regardless that's not the point. A third party candidate could very well win a state in Utah. Is that not a politically profound enough message to justify its own existence? There's an unhealthy bent towards rampant pragmatism here that seems to run exactly counter to the end result that people around here claim they want which is better parties/candidates via political competition. I heard the same thing against Sanders who basically did exactly this in the primaries by running the long odds against Hillary and SIGNIFICANTLY affecting the forthgoing party platform. If that's not proof of the system working as it should I don't know what is.
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I don't know why you're arguing with me. I endorse the idea. I just know what it will take to get an effective third party body of government.
 
Regulus Tera said:
Sanctioning one of the Big 5 sounds like a geopolitical crisis in the making. You know, the kind that ends up in nuclear winter.
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Except we're already doing that because of his shit in Crimea. The US and EU are fine, and Russia's economy is in the toilet. Seems like it's working just fine to me.
 
EleventhHourSuperpower said:
Calling people stupid only causes people to dig deeper. If you actually want a dialogue with people, don't talk down to them.
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The problem is you can't really have a dialogue with stupid people. They are morally opposed to facts and reason. Nine of the ten reasons people are voting for Trump aren't remotely grounded in reality. The best bet is to shout nonsense at them. Do it loudly and often enough, and they'll fall in line. This is why the GOP haven't changed their playbook since Reagan. Their base are deaf to nuance.
 
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Here's my map. I can see the Latinos turning Florida blue. The bible belt is all Trump obviously, and the swing states will go Hillary, either moderately or hard, whichever way you want to describe Trump getting 201 electorals vs. 337 for Hillary.
 
CrunchyFrog said:
I don't think anyone who votes for a third party necessarily expects to win this cycle, and regardless that's not the point. A third party candidate could very well win a state in Utah. Is that not a politically profound enough message to justify its own existence? There's an unhealthy bent towards rampant pragmatism here that seems to run exactly counter to the end result that people around here claim they want which is better parties/candidates via political competition. I heard the same thing against Sanders who basically did exactly this in the primaries by running the long odds against Hillary and SIGNIFICANTLY affecting the forthgoing party platform. If that's not proof of the system working as it should I don't know what is.
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Until you Amend the 12th Amendment. Stable, successful and persistent, 3rd Parties are impossible at the Presidential level in America. Full stop.

12th Amendment said:
The Electors shall meet in their respective states, and vote by ballot for President and Vice-President, one of whom, at least, shall not be an inhabitant of the same state with themselves; they shall name in their ballots the person voted for as President, and in distinct ballots the person voted for as Vice-President, and they shall make distinct lists of all persons voted for as President, and all persons voted for as Vice-President and of the number of votes for each, which lists they shall sign and certify, and transmit sealed to the seat of the government of the United States, directed to the President of the Senate.

The President of the Senate shall, in the presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the certificates and the votes shall then be counted.

The person having the greatest Number of votes for President, shall be the President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of Electors appointed; and if no person have such majority, then from the persons having the highest numbers not exceeding three on the list of those voted for as President, the House of Representatives shall choose immediately, by ballot, the President. But in choosing the President, the votes shall be taken by states, the representation from each state having one vote; a quorum for this purpose shall consist of a member or members from two-thirds of the states, and a majority of all the states shall be necessary to a choice. And if the House of Representatives shall not choose a President whenever the right of choice shall devolve upon them, before the fourth day of March next following, then the Vice-President shall act as President, as in the case of the death or other constitutional disability of the President.[Note 1]

The person having the greatest number of votes as Vice-President, shall be the Vice-President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of Electors appointed, and if no person have a majority, then from the two highest numbers on the list, the Senate shall choose the Vice-President; a quorum for the purpose shall consist of two-thirds of the whole number of Senators, and a majority of the whole number shall be necessary to a choice. But no person constitutionally ineligible to the office of President shall be eligible to that of Vice-President of the United States.[1]
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Sanders was able to affect the Democratic platform because he had leverage. As long as someone has to win a majority of Electors to win, there is no real leverage that a 3rd party can have. For a 3rd Party to affect American politics, they would have to do it at the State or Legislative levels first and foremost.

The primary issue is that in America's system, the two major parties are already coalitions of 99% of the mainstream ideologies. Anything left out is going to be, by necessity, fringe. This creates very odd 3rd Party platforms that are kind of a scattershot of all of the leftover fringe ideologies that have some sort of following.
 
At this point, I feel like if you're voting for trump, you're either extremely racist or turning a blind eye to racism, and that's not cool. Been shortening my fb friends list a lot lately
 
Machina said:
Here's my map. I can see the Latinos turning Florida blue. The bible belt is all Trump obviously, and the swing states will go Hillary, either moderately or hard, whichever way you want to describe Trump getting 201 electorals vs. 337 for Hillary.
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You have Arizona going for Hillary?
 
How are waiting lines for voting so long in the US?

Here in the Netherlands almost every school, church or other public building is a voting place.

The biggest line I have been in to vote was like 5 people.
 
Meus Renaissance said:
Whoever wins Florida wins the election.
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Yep.
Trump will win Iowa.
Colorado and Pennsylvania will go Clinton.

Florida will probably go Clinton as well, but I'll be watching it with anticipation all day. My home state of GA is but a pipe-dream now probably, but dammit if a man can't dream.
 
Wafflecakes said:
Not really.

If HILLARY wins Florida, she wins the election.

Trump would still need to win a bunch of other states.
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Best part about North Carolina, Florida and Ohio - they're all big prizes and would be great for Hillary to win, but she doesn't really need them while Trump is boned without them.

The only big swing state she needs is Pennsylvania which has always defaulted to lean Dem anyway. Even Gore and Kerry won it.
 
zethren said:
Yep.
Trump will win Iowa.
Colorado and Pennsylvania will go Clinton.

Florida will probably go Clinton as well, but I'll be watching it with anticipation all day. My home state of GA is but a pipe-dream now probably, but dammit if a man can't dream.
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As long as Clinton holds Nevada Trump can win Florida, Ohio and Iowa and still lose.
 
I'm expecting a very close race, but at this point I don't see too many options for Trump to actually win (thankfully). I think he has a chance of coming close though. Hope I'm wrong and the race isn't as close as I'm expecting.

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