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[Kinitari]

Reading through a lot of different GAF threads on the election, there is this reoccurring thought - that part of the many reasons thy Democrats lost was because some of the language and ideology on display over the last few years.

Some probably already know how I feel about it, but I actually want to challenge my own position before I get too ahead of myself.

Have liberals actually contributed to a toxic atmosphere that ostracized the white working class? Even if that's the case, who's responsibility was it to manage these shifts? Or is this just an expression of guilt by some, who are now just getting more opportunities to discuss these problems while the left desperately tries to understand what happened?

I think this is a complicated topic, and it takes on many forms - the poverty and drug epidemic in the rust belt I think most can agree on, but what about the social ostracizing? Did that actually impact anything? Did it even really happen?

 

[SFenton]

I kind of wanted to make a topic that was tangentially similar- is NeoGAF (and Reddit, and tumblr, etc.) more of an echo chamber than you'd believe? As much as I tried to avoid echo chambers- for either side- no one predicted this, saw this coming, and I was certain Clinton would win. Not necessarily by a landslide, but that she would win.

And so, maybe, did we find ourselves in these groups, forums, where we kind of sealed ourselves off and didn't really see more than what we wanted to?

Secondly- as much as I love to joke and make light, including using memes- did the meme culture really end up being a reflexive defense that didn't do anything, or even alienated? In all honesty: what did saying "Drumpf" do? What did the Pepe meme do? How ingrained is internet culture- could it have significantly affected the election?

Sorry to piggyback your thread but I didn't necessarily want to start a new thread and it seems like the things I'm thinking about right now seem to fit rather nicely. To answer your question, I think that yes, we may have been affected by it. Certainly, I feel like words like "racist" and "bigot" are thrown about rather carelessly instead of being targeted at those who truly deserve it, that we occasionally make kneejerk reactions to how some people act or behave. I believe both sides do it, absolutely, but with the prevalence of this generation on the internet, perhaps it was amplified?

I think there are a lot of questions I'd love to see delved into by both Democrats, data scientists, and psychologists after this. There's a treasure trove to be learned here.

 

[Count Dookkake]

Identity politics gave us two abominations this year: a Trump presidency and the Ghostbusters remake.

 

[cr0w]

GAF is the largest echo chamber I've ever seen, and now we see what happens when people who get far, far too emotionally invested in an online community are reminded that there's an entire world outside that isn't exactly the comfy blanket they've settled into.

It's like Neo first being unplugged from the Matrix. A good portion of members here have zero sense of reality.

 

[timetokill]

In my opinion, absolutely.

Most of the people I know that voted for Trump (and I know quite a few, unfortunately) were consistently angry that they were being essentially called scum by what are essentially ivory-tower liberals that don't know what it's like to live in rural areas or away from the coasts, who don't know what it's like to live in a rural community where the church is community gathering place.

I've brought it up before on here, but take GAF for an example. The south is constantly shit on, in any thread where it's even possible to mention it. Do you think southerners don't see that stuff? At best you have people feeling guilty about themselves, their families and their communities. At worst, you have people say, "well, fuck you too," and become determined to oppose your position at every possible turn.

Honestly, the "deplorables" comment may have been the most energizing of the entire election.

 

[Puck Beaverton]

there's an entire world outside that isn't exactly the comfy blanket they've settled into..

this should repeated to people who forever spout reality has a liberal bias

 

[TheRedSnifit]

I don't think that being "inclusive" would have made people switch sides and vote for Hillary, but I do think that constantly insulting the right drove them to the polls to vote for Trump.

 

[teruterubozu]

Honestly this is nothing new. I remember when George W. Bush won the media was coining it as the "revenge of the flyover states". The losers always reflect on how they could be more inclusive (for more votes!). The Dems are going to shift now - to where, I'm not sure - but it's gonna happen starting today.

 

[cr0w]

In my opinion, absolutely.

Most of the people I know that voted for Trump (and I know quite a few, unfortunately) were consistently angry that they were being essentially called scum by what are essentially ivory-tower liberals that don't know what it's like to live in rural areas or away from the coasts, who don't know what it's like to live in a rural community where the church is community gathering place.

I've brought it up before on here, but take GAF for an example. The south is constantly shit on, in any thread where it's even possible to mention it. Do you think southerners don't see that stuff? At best you have people feeling guilty about themselves, their families and their communities. At worst, you have people say, "well, fuck you too," and become determined to oppose your position at every possible turn.

Honestly, the "deplorables" comment may have been the most energizing of the entire election.

This right here. I'm a native Texan, and my hometown has less than 2,000 people. My entire family is old-school rural Texan.

I was blessed with the ability to live in other places such as Chicago and San Francisco before I settled down near home in Houston, and I've gone to almost physical war with people in my family and friends over their making racist, sexist, flat-out ignorant statements. I've sat others down and had thoughtful conversations about the world outside the one they've never left, and have offered them new perspectives on things they flat out didn't understand. I can't say I've changed everyone's mind, but I've done my damnedest to open up their eyes. Last week, I had a nice conversation with an old, white Wal-Mart greeter who stopped a black girl that had a small bag with a single toothbrush in it to check her receipt while a middle-aged white guy walked right by her with a cart full of electronics and she didn't bat an eye.

But all that seems to count is that I'm a white guy from Texas, therefore I'm the scum of the Earth.

 

[His Majesty]

I haven't actively followed the election threads on GAF but from European threads my impression is largely the same. People here are always very quick to label others as racist bigots beyond redemption and immediately dismiss any qualms they might have. This type of haughty condescension pisses off a lot of people.

The deplorables comment from Clinton is a clear example of this type of behaviour.

 

[Infinite]

No

 

[Aters]

Librals fight racists by being racists. See how many "rural white people should die" posts on GAF?

 

[RedAssedApe]

The deplorables comment was definitely a huge mistake on Hillary's part. :\

 

[Guevara]

Inclusiveness and social justice are losing strategies in a general election.

They appeal chiefly to the left wing, which Clinton shouldn't have had to constantly reassure anyway, and they risk alienating the moderate voter as you mention.

They are also a waste of precious time: every speech about social justice is a missed opportunity to talk about broader issues like the economy, etc.

--

Edit: this sounds too harsh. Of course Hillary had to be the inclusive candidate, but I think she spent way too much time on it and therefore lost the middle.

 

[Dude Abides]

It's a problem to the extent it's always been a problem. Rural white people have been angry at educated urbanites and minorities since before Nixon.

 

[Puck Beaverton]

I haven't actively followed the election threads on GAF but from European threads my impression is largely the same. People here are always very quick to label others as racist bigots beyond redemption and immediately dismiss any qualms they might have. This type of haughty condescension pisses off a lot of people.

The deplorables comment from Clinton is a clear example of this type of behaviour.

yep doesn't even matter if the condescension is warranted, like I personally believe it was, you will piss people off

 

[Kthulhu]

Half of Republicans are terrified of Democrats and vice versa.

That needs to be fixed, somehow. By people way smarter than I.

Otherwise unless one party controles everything, nothing will get done.

 

[PastorOfMuppets]

This will likely fall on deaf ears since so many white people always miss the point.

All last night, I read stuff on Facebook, Reddit, here, Twitter from a lot white people - and make no mistake it WAS ALL FROM WHITE PEOPLE AND WHITE PEOPLE ONLY, wagging the finger at the rest of us. You can put your caveat about #NotAllWhitePeople here.

Maybe if you hadn't demonized us so much. Maybe if you hadn't pushed PC culture so much. Maybe if feminists weren't such big feminazis, maybe if BLM wasn't so rude, maybe if SJWs were nicer and more inclusive, maybe if we weren't so caught up in identity politics maybe [insert reasons] than Trump wouldn't have won.

Like, how the fuck do you want us to accommodate you guys at this point? We're living in an era where you can film a bunch of cops shooting an unarmed black man in 1080p - pretty soon 4K probably, and still see those cops acquitted of a crime and the first thing you'll hear from a white person on the matter is "All lives matters guys." We just saw an candidate win over 55% of the white vote despite opening his campaign by threatening to deport Mexicans and calling them rapists and murderers (but some are good though right?). Sorry but you guys don't get to complain about being called racists just because you call black people the N-word while simultaneously supporting racist systems and people with your actions.

I was a glass half full guy when it came to race relations but it's pretty evident to me that white people collectively do not give a shit about the rest of us anymore. There's no other way I can see this when I look at that election map that shows landslide victories for Trump if only white people voted and an all blue America if people of colour voted. It's insane to me that Clinton's corruption, lack of charisma and whatever the fuck was in those emails was so bad to white America that they felt they could overlook the character flaws of Donald Trump simply because he was anti-establishment (the motherfucker is a rich white guy from New York City, what the fuck?!).

Edit: Watch this and tell me about how bad it makes you feel when you're called a racist because you support Trump. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdgewCeLtrU

 

[MogCakes]

Yes, it absolutely is a real problem. Dogpiling and mob mentality run rampant in any political or social issue topic.

 

[Beardz]

X is the largest echo chamber

Fixed.

What I did? I tried to visit the extremes, this forum for example is 100%* Hillary, here everything Trump did was wrong. I watched hours of Alex Jones, visited Trump's reddit, watched a little CNN, Fox News and TyT, even visited Stormfront.

I did this because I wanted different perspectives, different narratives; this way I could better understand the two* sides of the coin (Actually there're a lot more sides) and I could see that Trump was going to win.

For me this is the only way you can have your own* perspective.

 

[quickwhips]

People who liked trump on neogaf were more abrasive and banned quick. If they had a side to tell we never heard it before they were banned. Hell a lot of people on here were disowning family members for voting trump. How can change happen if we end the discussion?

 

[Kid Kamikaze10]

I knew a thread like this was coming.

Yes, it is poc and other minorities fault for calling shit out. That's why Hillary lost.

Lets swallow our pride and agency to make sure white liberals get what they want.

Because we sure haven't, and aren't.

And don't act like this isn't what it's about. I regularly see a bunch of you in "PC Culture" threads.

 

[Foffy]

I think so, but I think from the perspective of policy.

What do you do for dozens of people in areas where the world is literally moving on from them and leaving them with nothing? You expect them to live with nothing, to have nothing, to lack and suffer.

We discounted the "hick religious idiot yeehaws" by ignoring their own economic insecurities, the insolubility of their local infrastructures, and had the gall to tell them the world is better off?

Not their world.

You homies and hookers know I harp on shit like a UBI, but something like that totally could have helped them. Why must we kick that can down the road until that bullet must be fired from the gun and allow so many to needlessly suffer?

Their suffering is our suffering. They've shared their misery with us, and now we all suffer under Trump.

 

[Infinite]

This will likely fall on deaf ears since so many white people always miss the point.

All last night, I read stuff on Facebook, Reddit, here, Twitter from a lot white people - and make no mistake it WAS ALL FROM WHITE PEOPLE AND WHITE PEOPLE ONLY, wagging the finger at the rest of us. You can put your caveat about #NotAllWhitePeople here.

Maybe if you hadn't demonized us so much. Maybe if you hadn't pushed PC culture so much. Maybe if feminists weren't such big feminazis, maybe if BLM wasn't so rude, maybe if SJWs were nicer and more inclusive, maybe if we weren't so caught up in identity politics maybe [insert reasons] than Trump wouldn't have won.

Like, how the fuck do you want us to accommodate you guys at this point? We're living in an era where you can film a bunch of cops shooting an unarmed black man in 1080p - pretty soon 4K probably, and still see those cops acquitted of a crime and the first thing you'll hear from a white person on the matter is "All lives matters guys." We just saw an candidate win over 55% of the white vote despite opening his campaign by threatening to deport Mexicans and calling them rapists and murderers (but some are good though right?). Sorry but you guys don't get to complain about being called racists just because you call black people the N-word while simultaneously supporting racist systems and people with your actions.

I was a glass half full guy when it came to race relations but it's pretty evident to me that white people collectively do not give a shit about the rest of us anymore. There's no other way I can see this when I look at that election map that shows landslide victories for Trump if only white people voted and an all blue America if people of colour voted. It's insane to me that Clinton's corruption, lack of charisma and whatever the fuck was in those emails was so bad to white America that they felt they could overlook the character flaws of Donald Trump simply because he was anti-establishment (the motherfucker is a rich white guy from New York City, what the fuck?!).

Fully fucking agree.

I knew a thread like this was coming.

Yes, it is poc and other minorities fault for calling shit out. That's why Hillary lost.

Lets swallow our pride and agency to make sure white liberals get what they want.

Because we sure haven't.

Of course this thread was coming. Let's bow our heads and promise white people well do better (read: shut up)with our identify politics and black lives mattering stuff. Fucking joke

 

[Afrodium]

Yes. Telling people don't have anything to complain about if they're white is unhelpful and only pushes them to the guy sitting about how everything is shit. Trump won not only because he got the swing states, but also by flipping blue states full of working class white folks. He redrew the map and may have turned a huge Dem voting block red.

 

[Puck Beaverton]

I was a glass half full guy when it came to race relations but it's pretty evident to me that white people collectively do not give a shit about the rest of us anymore.

I will understand if you hate me being "I told you so" but I've been saying that for awhile. Middle class America (consisting mainly of white people) do not care. It does not affect them personally so it's whatever.

I believe we have an empathy problem but that's just an uneducated persons opinion.

 

[Fox Mulder]

I don't want to be inclusive and tolerant towards these people anymore.

Attempts to reach out or explain issues were met with a fuck you and unprecedented obstructionism that was then rewarded.

Democrats just need to actually vote and leave shit like the Clintons behind.

 

[Brianimaniac]

What's the alternative? You can't use soft language talking about racists.

 

[Kinitari]

Inclusiveness and social justice are losing strategies in a general election.

They appeal chiefly to the left wing, which Clinton shouldn't have had to constantly reassure anyway, and they risk alienating the moderate voter as you mention.

They are also a waste of precious time: every speech about social justice is a missed opportunity to talk about broader issues like the economy, etc.

So you see it more as a political gambit that didn't pan out. I wonder if the reason it was even a part of The platform is because of the most fervent democratic constituents - maybe the politicians thought they -had- to bang on that drum, so to speak. Sort of how the tea party shifted the vocabulary of the Republicans.

It's a problem to the extent it's always been a problem. Rural white people have been angry at educated urbanites and minorities since before Nixon.

But the rust belt was won over by something Obama did - and now they seem to have both voted less and voted Republican more often. Why did they feel like Obama was good, but Hilary bad? A lot of gaffers are thinking they feel ostracized and demonized - I'm actually not sure if that alone is enough to explain it, but can it explain any of it?

 

[TheRedSnifit]

What's the alternative? You can't use soft language talking about racists.

You can, actually.

Maybe you shouldn't have to. In fact, you probably shouldn't have to. But not using soft language got Trump into the White House, so . . .

 

[Goro Majima]

It's coming out that turnout on the left was significantly lower than 2008 or 2012. People voted for Obama because they believed in him.

What I saw was a lot of people just trying to shame people into getting out and voting for Clinton.

"If you're not voting for Clinton, you're a racist bigot"

"How could you think of voting for someone other than Clinton? Disgusting."

So the message went and I don't think that's as motivating as people hyping up her policies more than anything.

 

[Valhelm]

An enormous amount of voters feel alienated from their politics and their economy. The Washington-Wall Street "establishment" had failed to address their concerns. Changes in demographics and social mores, as well as the sudden emergence of minority identity politics, scared a certain group of voters (mostly white, mostly over-50, mostly lower middle class) into the arms of a populist who promised a grotesque return to normalcy.

Hillary Clinton did very little to assuage the concerns of these voters. Many of them voted Trump out of plain bigotry, but another group (which I believe is bigger) were simply not sufficiently perturbed by his rhetoric to vote for a woman they believe to be corrupt and un-American. Had Hillary more actively focused on Trump's dishonesty and inexperience, instead of his mean language, she might have been more successful.

What really killed Hillary, though, was her inability to engage with likely Trump voters. The Democrats naively expected white uneducated voters to see through Trump's bullshit. Even though Trump has no sound policy, his promises bring back jobs were more attractive than Hillary's appeal to a status quo that dissatisfies so many.

 

[Rayis]

Can we expect the same courtesy from the other side though? I mean, is not like those people treat us any better and I'd argue they're far more hostile to us than we are to them, I'm a liberal and I live so far from an ivory tower, so hearing so many people saying that we should listen to them without them extending the same courtesy is upsetting. I don't see them wanting to have a discussion in good faith.

 

[xk0sm0sx]

Until now you still see some posters flat out scolding people who voted for Trump that they're racist, misogynists etc etc

You got your moral high ground, but guess what, you've lost the war.
Scolding other people doesn't work. This is why the term SJW and PC is being used derogatory.

Yes, you are trying to make people becoming more sensitive, but you are literally making things worse.
Many people actually see from both perspectives and understand why a person has a stand, and convince slowly.
On the otherhand, some just keep shouting "This is wrong, you should be ashamed of yourself, you are discriminating minorities." and generate hate. That's why SJW and PC are being used as a joke term.

And until now people STILL don't learn, just because they think it's more important to have the moral high ground.

 

[Brakke]

It's ok to call a spade a spade. Trump is an idiot, surrounded by cowards, who ran a hateful campaign full of lies. All of these things are simply true. The problem isn't with people saying this truth, but with people who heard this truth and then made the active decision to not reject him.

 

[bionic77]

This is a worldwide phenomenon towards right wing extremism. It is certainly not because of liberals not being inclusive enough. I think the underlying causes are globalism and fear of muslims/terrorists/immigrants/etc.

America is just the latest example of this.

Only Canada seems immune. Fuck those guys for getting it right!

 

[deli2000]

What both brexit and Trump's win taught me is that people of colour basically have to beg and grovel to white people to get their legitmate concerns heard, while white people can be rude and inflammatory as they want when expressing theirs. At least we all know where we stand. I love you white people, you guys are all amazing. Sorry for being so rude during the campaign. Please listen to us.

 

[Infinite]

This is a worldwide phenomenon towards right wing extremism. It is certainly not because of liberals not being inclusive enough. I think the underlying causes are globalism and fear of muslims/terrorists/immigrants/etc.

America is just the latest example of this.

Only Canada seems immune. Fuck those guys for getting it right!

This as well.

 

[jmdajr]

This is a worldwide phenomenon towards right wing extremism. It is certainly not because of liberals not being inclusive enough. I think the underlying causes are globalism and fear of muslims/terrorists/immigrants/etc.

America is just the latest example of this.

Only Canada seems immune. Fuck those guys for getting it right!

Bagged milk though!

 

[Beer Monkey]

I've brought it up before on here, but take GAF for an example. The south is constantly shit on, in any thread where it's even possible to mention it. Do you think southerners don't see that stuff? At best you have people feeling guilty about themselves, their families and their communities. At worst, you have people say, "well, fuck you too," and become determined to oppose your position at every possible turn.

I love the Columbus and Cleveland liberals who keep saying they want to give Hamilton County, AKA Cincinnati, to Kentucky. They talk about us like we are trash that drags the state down.

We here in the Queen City voted for Hillary by ten points, dickheads.

 

[Jeels]

It's a bunch of bullshit. Democrats lost because they had the weaker candidate who focused on the wrong states. Trump won with less votes than Mitt Romney. He didn't turn out the vote but neither did she. The democratic party represents enough of America, the problem is, the demoratic party didn't turn up last night.

 

[Kinitari]

This will likely fall on deaf ears since so many white people always miss the point.

All last night, I read stuff on Facebook, Reddit, here, Twitter from a lot white people - and make no mistake it WAS ALL FROM WHITE PEOPLE AND WHITE PEOPLE ONLY, wagging the finger at the rest of us. You can put your caveat about #NotAllWhitePeople here.

Maybe if you hadn't demonized us so much. Maybe if you hadn't pushed PC culture so much. Maybe if feminists weren't such big feminazis, maybe if BLM wasn't so rude, maybe if SJWs were nicer and more inclusive, maybe if we weren't so caught up in identity politics maybe [insert reasons] than Trump wouldn't have won.

Like, how the fuck do you want us to accommodate you guys at this point? We're living in an era where you can film a bunch of cops shooting an unarmed black man in 1080p - pretty soon 4K probably, and still see those cops acquitted of a crime and the first thing you'll hear from a white person on the matter is "All lives matters guys." We just saw an candidate win over 55% of the white vote despite opening his campaign by threatening to deport Mexicans and calling them rapists and murderers (but some are good though right?). Sorry but you guys don't get to complain about being called racists just because you call black people the N-word while simultaneously supporting racist systems and people with your actions.

I was a glass half full guy when it came to race relations but it's pretty evident to me that white people collectively do not give a shit about the rest of us anymore. There's no other way I can see this when I look at that election map that shows landslide victories for Trump if only white people voted and an all blue America if people of colour voted. It's insane to me that Clinton's corruption, lack of charisma and whatever the fuck was in those emails was so bad to white America that they felt they could overlook the character flaws of Donald Trump simply because he was anti-establishment (the motherfucker is a rich white guy from New York City, what the fuck?!).

Edit: Watch this and tell me about how bad it makes you feel when you're called a racist because you support Trump. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdgewCeLtrU

How do you know that? Why do you think no minorities are feeling this way?

 

[StrategyFan]

it's a numbers game. you can exclude certain demographics, but you have to make up for that with gains elsewhere

the democratic platform and candidate didn't have to be amazing to beat donald trump. we're not talking about some amazing all-star on the republican side.

it just required showing up and not screwing up. they failed to even do that much.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

I look at the exit polls and this clown show of an election sesson and I think its honestly a joke statement. I don't buy that the white voter felt so ostracized by liberals that Trump was the option. Trump only gained traction the second he spit racial bile and insulted basically every votng base. He never made a single point on a single issue without fearmongering and racializing the shit out of it.

And behold, he won based on majority white vote of which accirding to exit polls had immigration and terrorism as their most important issue.

I don't buy this shit for a second.

 

[sir_kevith]

I don't want to be inclusive and tolerant towards these people anymore.

Attempts to reach out or explain issues were met with a fuck you and unprecedented obstructionism that was then rewarded.

Democrats just need to actually vote and leave shit like the Clintons behind.

Exactly. Clinton was super soft in the debates. We gotta dumb politics down and increase the theatrics to get anything done now. She took the high road and I felt it was the right move at the time but I was wrong as fuck.

 

[Fox Mulder]

Can we expect the same courtesy from the other side though? I mean, is not like those people treat us any better and I'd argue they're far more hostile to us than we are to them, I'm a liberal and I live so far from an ivory tower, so hearing so many people that we should listen to them without them extending the same courtesy is upsetting. I don't see them wanting to have a discussion in good faith.

We tried in good faith for years. The man that racially antagonized the president for years about a birth certificate and is backed by the fucking kkk is the new president. Republicans rewarded for years of obstructionism and fucking over their own citizens by ensuring Obamacare failed.

Vile.

 

[Dude Abides]

But the rust belt was won over by something Obama did - and now they seem to have both voted less and voted Republican more often. Why did they feel like Obama was good, but Hilary bad? A lot of gaffers are thinking they feel ostracized and demonized - I'm actually not sure if that alone is enough to explain it, but can it explain any of it?

Personality. Obama is charismatic and and people liked him. Trump is bombastic and confident and people like that. Neither Clinton nor Romney are particularly charismatic so the people to whom their message appeals still weren't all that into them.

 

[Makonero]

I love the Columbus and Cleveland liberals who keep saying they want to give Hamilton County, AKA Cincinnati, to Kentucky. They talk about us like we are trash that drags the state down.

We here in the Queen City voted for Hillary by ten points, dickheads.

Thank God. I just moved away but I'm happy to see my county go blue.

 

[MUnited83]

Why would you try to be inclusive to white supremacists fuckwits that hate minorities? Why should people tolerate the ones that promote the murder, the deportation, the taking away of rights?

 

[Atom Heart Mother]

Reading through a lot of different GAF threads on the election, there is this reoccurring thought - that part of the many reasons thy Democrats lost was because some of the language and ideology on display over the last few years.

Some probably already know how I feel about it, but I actually want to challenge my own position before I get too ahead of myself.

Have liberals actually contributed to a toxic atmosphere that ostracized the white working class? Even if that's the case, who's responsibility was it to manage these shifts? Or is this just an expression of guilt by some, who are now just getting more opportunities to discuss these problems while the left desperately tries to understand what happened?

I think this is a complicated topic, and it takes on many forms - the poverty and drug epidemic in the rust belt I think most can agree on, but what about the social ostracizing? Did that actually impact anything? Did it even really happen?

Ya know, I commented on this situation about a week ago and was told that it was OK to call Trump voters racists and nazis when I felt deeply offended as my parents were Trump voters. So yeah, by creating this toxic atmosphere and calling Trump supporters low scum is going to make them even angrier. They created this beast.