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[Ghazi]

What is idiotic about that statement? You're saying it smart or ok that your only reaction to the issue of LBGT representation is to tell everyone posting on a game forum that you're just in it for the gameplay? Again, think about the context of that statement, and why it only comes up whenever the issue specifically is about anything having to do with hypothetical positive portrayals of minorities, and people who're LBGT. How often do you see people say "I only care about the gameplay" when devs talk about heterosexual romances, or anything having to do with a games stories or themes if they have nothing to with minorities, women, and LBGT people? Or better yet, it's absolutely easy to state "I just care about gameplay" when you're CONSTANTLY being represented and this, don't have to use your brain as much to think about the hypotheticals of it.

I think both of you are in the wrong. Invius' post was irrelevant to the topic but derailed this thread because of your (& others) overreactions. Their post was completely noninflammatory and you blew it up. The second part of your post is ridiculous, we don't often have threads about heterosexual romances/orientations so of course no one says they only care about gameplay in them. And like you said, everyone hopes every game has good gameplay, so it would follow that there will be posts about it. Your post was idiotic because you're literally shitting on someone for saying they hope the game plays well on a videogame forum, even though this thread isn't the place for it. Now this thread is Invius digging themselves deeper into a hole and people continuing to dogpile them.

We already have Chris Redfield.

 

[Iva Demilcol]

Will this be the first AAA game with a gay lead?

We already have Chris Redfield.

 

[CornBurrito]

So does story matter, or were all the reviews praising TLOU's story just misrepresenting what games are supposed to be about? Which is apparently JUST gameplay and nothing else.

Also does this imply that TLOU having such a focus on story in its first game detracted from the gameplay, or is the fear that it will detract this time because somehow this is different?

 

[admartian]

I haven't read the entire thread so I am assuming this will have been mentioned at some point, but just to reiterate:

Any positive representations of gay people in any sort of creative medium is great, but especially in video games, which has been an incredibly homophobic art form in the past.

However, we have to be aware of opportunism, faux-sincerity, and most importantly in this case, the fetishisation of lesbianism.

You can't really compare this to something like LGBT cinema, which has a deep history of struggle for LGBT rights (in times much more difficult than 2016), showing LGBT narratives, and being an outlet for LGBT creativity. There's nothing wrong with some straight developers (or even queer developers who aren't involved in LGBT activism), making a character in a video game gay. But it will never mean the same thing as when someone who is from a specifically LGBT arts background does it. Steven Lavelle's games as Increpare are a great example of modern LGBT game development.

There is a narrative trope that equates female friendship with homosexuality, in a way that is rarely if ever applied to close male friendship. We saw it in Life is Strange too- it can perpetuate the false idea that if you're female, you're always secretly in love with your best friend. This denies emotional flexibility to women, it shuts down the possibility of women have a platonic best friend and being gay, it feeds male fantasies about all women secretly wanting to have sex with each other, and it positions women as constantly having a romantic role in every narrative.

I'm not saying that this was the case with Left Behind, although to be honest I thought that Chloe and Max's relationship in Life Is Strange was a bit more developed, romantically speaking, than that of Ellie and Riley. But I think Naughty Dog's writers are really excellent, and that if Last of Us 2 tackles LGBT issues, it will do it sincerely and with complete clarity. I just wanted to point out that it's not just a case of homophobic people vs. people who want LGBT representation in games- in the latter category, there needs to be a debate about how that representation happens, and who it represents. It can't just be a top down thing, where LGBT characters are inserted into a narrative (the whole 'make Elsa from Frozen gay!' thing is an example of this). We need more, and higher budget, queer games, made by queer auteurs, as only this can truly represent queer life.

Also, on a personal level, I'd like to see a game featuring an effeminate male gay character, who doesn't 'earn respect' by acting macho at some point, and who isn't a figure of fun.

I'm queer btw. I hope everyone gets what I'm saying in this post. No disrespect meant to anyone x

Yeah pretty much what I mean except said way better.

 

[psyfi]

I gotta say, even in my short time lurking / being on GAF, the community has gotten so much better at talking about stuff like this. I'm really thankful for all the hard, tiring, and even life threatening work put it in by feminist, queer, and pro-diversity gamers. They're the ones who got us here.

 

[GustyGardens]

[text]

As someone who's also part of the LGBTQ community, I appreciate everything you wrote, but I can't say I agree with you 100%. There's nothing wrong with your position on the matter, but I wanted to say that my sexuality definitely doesn't define me. Personally, sexuality is a lot more intimate than my style of clothes and music. My personality wasn't molded by the community at large. The reason for my existence wasn't to fill some queer quota.

I wrote a comment earlier in the thread about how I didn't want Ellie to be defined by her sexuality, and I stand by that. Ellie's sole reason for existing shouldn't be the fact she's a gay character. There's needs to be a lot more to her character. That's what I meant about not letting it define her. I also thought BioWare did a decent job with their games. Dorian and Iron Bull weren't important to the story because they were gay or bi. They were important to the story because there was a lot more going on with them.

Ellie is a strong character. She's a warrior. She's not a gay warrior, she's a warrior that also happens to be gay. It's like when you say a woman is a phenomenal female athlete, rather than just a phenomenal athlete.

 

[EulaCapra]

Putting Ellie aside, I hope gruff ol' Joel finds a good man for himself since no woman can clearly replace his dearly departed.

 

[Kangi]

To-do list:

• Make a video game
• Make every character gay
• Even the dog

 

[Emperor_Uriel]

We already have Chris Redfield.

If only, it would add some much needed dimension to his character.

A massive franchise with a gay male lead still feels really far off. There's a reason why the token LGBT character(s) in games is, more often than not, a young lesbian woman/couple.

Also, just as an aside, literally nothing stopping Druckmann from throwing a curveball and making Ellie canonically bi. It would make the most sense in a post apocalyptic word, after all, to not be too picky about the rare person you spend positive time with.

 

[Lime]

"Hmm... I can't tell if they're gay"

erasure via heteronormativity basically.

A whole bunch of fuckboys trying to rationalize away Riley's and Ellie's relationship since day 1 that Left Behind dropped. They still try to live in denial of a video game character expressing their homosexuality as evidenced throughout in this thread.

 

[snickothemule]

But if there's any room at all for love in that universe, I sincerely hope Ellie is able to find it. In the arms of a good woman.

That is sweet.

Since the games theme is hate, I'm interested to see how deep it runs in Ellie and I'm hopeful it doesn't consume her, having to live a life with one eye open must be brutal, especially forming relationships.

Seeing Ellie like this is worrying, but how she overcomes this is intriguing


I was so critical of the first game, wasn't super impressed by the gameplay and the story notes at times I found a bit too predictable, but at the same time the relationship between Joel and Ellie left a lasting impression and I'm super excited to see what ND do with them.

 

[Curufinwe]

Putting Ellie aside, I hope gruff ol' Joel finds a good man for himself since no woman can clearly replace his dearly departed.

I dunno about that.

I won't be surprised if Joel and Ellie got together.

 

[Plus1Attack]

Absolutely loved that piece. We need more LGBTQ voices in both games and games media.

 

[Memento]

I feel like both sides of this discussion have a point.

Yes, representation does matter and it would be incredible if Ellie's sexuality was a theme explored in the narrative. But at the same time, I feel like quality representation is also very important, and subtlety is the best way to approach it imo. In that sense, if exploring Ellie's sexuallity doesnt feel honest to the narrative, I dont need it being prominently featured in the game.

But then again, if it fits what they are going after with the story, I would love to see it developed.

If there is one studio I can trust to make it right though, that is Naughty Dog!

 

[Sai-kun]

I feel like both sides of this discussion have a point.

Yes, representation does matter and it would be incredible if Ellie's sexuality was a theme explored in the narrative. But at the same time, I feel like quality representation is also very important, and subtlety is the best way to approach it imo. In that sense, if exploring Ellie's sexuallity doesnt feel honest to the narrative, I dont need it being prominently featured in the game.

But then again, if it fits what they are going after with the story, I would love to see it developed.

If there is one studio I can trust to make it right though, that is Naughty Dog!

nobody gives this much of a shit when it comes to straight people in video games

 

[Kalentan]

I dunno about that.

I won't be surprised if Joel and Ellie got together.

Please no. That would probably honestly kill the series for me.

 

[Ghost is Bad]

I think both of you are in the wrong. Invius' post was irrelevant to the topic but derailed this thread because of your (& others) overreactions. Their post was completely noninflammatory and you blew it up. The second part of your post is ridiculous, we don't often have threads about heterosexual romances/orientations so of course no one says they only care about gameplay in them. And like you said, everyone hopes every game has good gameplay, so it would follow that there will be posts about it. Your post was idiotic because you're literally shitting on someone for saying they hope the game plays well on a videogame forum, even though this thread isn't the place for it. Now this thread is Invius digging themselves deeper into a hole and people continuing to dogpile them.

id agree with you except nobody wants to talk about how the game will play in this thread. its all "i dont care if ellie is gay," and "ellie being gay is super important." saying u care about gameplay but not posting how ur ideal version of the game would play out is a lazy excuse to driveby shitpost and express your apathy and leads to statements like the one invius made about comparing being insulted on a game board with the systematic extermination of native american cultures during the 1500s to the late 1800s. if you cant contribute anything other than "i dont care i just want good gameplay," without extrapolating beyond that extremely generic talking point, then you're frankly just being a dumbass.

 

[Dany]

Am I subtly gay enough??


What should I do to make sure the straight ego is protected?

 

[kamineko]

I think super gay sounds fine

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

erasure via heteronormativity basically.

A whole bunch of fuckboys trying to rationalize away Riley's and Ellie's relationship since day 1 that Left Behind dropped. They still try to live in denial of a video game character expressing their homosexuality as evidenced throughout in this thread.

They're just really good friends

 

[Garrett Hawke]

Man, I'm sick of straight people's discomfort with queer people being masqueraded (especially to themselves) as progressive concern. Two things I want to say about this:

1. As a gay person, I'm really annoyed by the sentiment that gay characters' sexuality should just be a "sublte" trait that "doesn't define them." My sexuality absolutely friggin defines me. I think about the fact that I'm gay literally every single day. It defines who I love, the TV shows and comics I find myself drawn to, how I relate to society, what my politics are, how I view myself- my insecurities and my pride. It defines how people treat me. And It defines the community I find myself in, who my friends are and what my dating pool is- and our communities absolutely come to define us as people.

And this idea that our sexuality shouldn't define us is also a bullshit double-standard, because straight characters are allowed to have their sexuality define them all the time and nobody complains about it. straight people in the real world too. Straight people talk about their sexuality *all the time* and yet nobody complains that they are "letting" it define them. The only reason straight people don't realize how much your sexuality defines you is because you're all surrounded by people just like you. And when I see people say that gay characters like Ellie can't be too in-your-face, that her sexuality should be "sublte" like some kind of footnote in the textbook of her life, all I see is heterosexuals being uncomfortable.


2. Gay people are a community and subculture, and we have shared practices that we use to express our identites- the way we dress for example. Yes, it's true that clothing is inherently neutral and anybody can wear what they want- but it seems that whenever gay people find a way to express themselves in a way that becomes a shared marker of queerness between us, y'all are complaining about "stereotypes." We can't let certain hairstyles, ways of dressing, etc. becomes markers of queerness, you say, lest we perpetuate stereotypes. But these "stereotypes" aren't just made up stuff, these are real queer people who are adopting styles of presentation to celebrate ourselves. I spend so much time in lesbian circles and so many girls proudly wear flannel as a way to express their sexuality, talking about how gay their fashion is. And yeah, of course plenty of queer women don't wear flannel and dress in ways you moght consider "straight." And no matter how you dress doesn't literally define your sexuality and you should dress however you like. But the fact is that for a sizable portion of the LGBT population, certain things become something we positively mark as being "gay" and for a lot of gay people that becomes a really important part of expressing themselves and loving themselves. And when we talk about these things we love that have become part of our shared gay culture, you get concerned straight people coming in warning us "But clothing and hobbies and music and hair don't have a sexuality!! Stop perpetuating stereotypes!" And you might be well-intentioned in that, but I can't help but feel this is another example of straight people being uncomfortable with us and expressing that discomfort in progressive language.

this post actually slayed me so much <3

 

[Meaty]

erasure via heteronormativity basically.

A whole bunch of fuckboys trying to rationalize away Riley's and Ellie's relationship since day 1 that Left Behind dropped. They still try to live in denial of a video game character expressing their homosexuality as evidenced throughout in this thread.

Its just not easy to define someone's sexuality based on what they did as a teenager.

I kissed a boy myself when I was little because I was discovering myself. Im heterosexual now, but when I was little I dont even know what I was. Its a time to discover yourself, ellie could be anything, honestly.

If Druckman wants to write her as homossexual then go right on ahead, I believe him to do an amazing work. I wont be disapointed if she turns out pan, bi, or asexual.

 

[jett]

Putting Ellie aside, I hope gruff ol' Joel finds a good man for himself since no woman can clearly replace his dearly departed.

You silly person, dead people can't get into relationships.

 

[Zeyphersan]

I dunno about that.

I won't be surprised if Joel and Ellie got together.

How does this keep happening in this thread??

 

[tareqsalah1]

I thought she wasnt gay but had a moment with her friend.
Also i remember in the scene in the car were she was checking bills magazine she was confused to see men i think naked in the magazine. I thought she would have known if she her self was gay.

I dont care if she was, i think naughty dog makes well written characters regardless of their sexual identity.

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

How does this keep happening in this thread??

Maybe they recently watched Leon

 

[Audioboxer]

How does this keep happening in this thread??

I can only assume people either didn't play the game or paid zero attention to the story.

Joel and Ellie are pretty much father and "daughter" .

 

[Astral Dog]

 

[Romeeeeeeeeeee]

You're right. A gay superhero would be a cool idea BUT it has to be subtle..

 

[Opa-Pa]

I'll act as if the people saying she could end up with Joel and the straight users being uncomfortable with the topic aren't there and say: HELL YEAH.

I noticed a lot of people were applauding ND for making Ellie the protagonist in such an important game, because she's a woman, but pretty much no one commented on how she'll be a queer woman protagonist in a sequel to a high profile AAA hit. That's crazy and I support it 100%.

I'm not sure if she'll get in a relationship in the game per se, but even just talking about her sexuality and acknowledging Left Behind would be great. I didn't notice her ourfit in the trailer at first, damm, that's a nice touch.

Wow in your face much? How about being more subtle?

 

[Paper Sparrow]

I see Ellie with Joel over another woman, she's bi at most. It's stupid to focus on that stuff in a game though, leave it to the players imagination.

I dunno about that.

I won't be surprised if Joel and Ellie got together.

What game were you guys playing? Like... wat...

 

[Bronx-Man]

"I'm alright with San Andreas having a black lead, but he has to be subtly black, y'know."

 

[Juraash]

I think it's kind of funny how much some people are worried about making her sexuality be "front and center". I feel like subtlety is pretty strong in TLOU. There's implications with Joel and Tess's history but their prior romance is never in your face. Or some driving, hours long plot thread

Same subtlety goes for the dlc imo. I think, viewed in a semi-vacuum without reading interviews and what not, you don't necessarily get slapped in the face with Ellie being gay. They are two young people trying to have a little fun in a super fucked up world. I didn't see their interactions like some sort of air horn that just screams LESBIAN everytime you blow it.

Bottom line is, Ellie is gay it is part of her character and we should acknowledge it in a way that's appropriate to who she is and the story being told. This game isn't called The Last of Us: Ellie's crazy post apocalyptic lesbian extravaganza. None of the characters in TLOU (to my memory) were these blatant, in your face stereotypes. They were as complex and as human as any we've ever seen in video games. Seems totally ridiculous to me that people would think ND would boil any character down to a single note, Ellie or otherwise.

 

[Tidalwave]

Super gay characters are most certainly welcome but changing established character's personalities to get them isn't.

Spoiler

imo.

 

[Garrett Hawke]

"I'm alright with San Andreas having a black lead, but he has to be subtly black, y'know."

should be white passing imo

just a nice, san andreas tan

Super gay characters are most certainly welcome but changing established characters to get them isn't.

Spoiler

imo.

but ellie is gay

 

[Captain Fish]

"I'm alright with San Andreas having a black lead, but he has to be subtly black, y'know."

Colourism explained.

 

[Tidalwave]

should be white passing imo

just a nice, san andreas tan


but ellie is gay

Edited to explain myself more. She is gay, but her personality isnt flamboyant.

 

[Lime]

The coming Vice President of the United States wants to electrocute homosexuals and repeal any laws of equality, but here we have fuckboi one, two, and three who are oh so concerned that their video game won't be the usual non-reflective heterosexual power fantasy that will constantly stroke their dicks and reaffirm their manhood, and if they don't get it, it's basically equivalent to the genocide of an entire population. Those poor souls.

And that's not talking about the so-called moderates with their veiled excuses for the status quo and "both sides" and whatever nonsense they can conjure up to serve as impediments towards the mere presence of non-straight existence.

 

[Moon_frogger]

I can only assume people either didn't play the game or paid zero attention to the story.

Joel and Ellie are pretty much father and "daughter" .

I can't believe this needs to be explained. ugh.

 

[OrlanisWorks]

Who she ends up with is none of my business, as long as they aren't Joel.

I firmly believe no one should fuck their dad.

 

[jett]

Edited to explain myself more. She is gay, but her personality isnt flamboyant.

You should read the article if you haven't. That headline is just a means to get clicks.

"I'm alright with San Andreas having a black lead, but he has to be subtly black, y'know."

It's sad/funny how little things have changed. You had people up in arms over a black protagonist back when San Andreas was revealed.

I guess now at least people don't care much that Ellie is in fact gay, just can't be too gay, else they riot.

 

[Lime]

A few posts in this topic are disappointing, Ellie is a great character and ND know what they are doing, but as is the aggression and snark that continues to constantly come from some GAF posters.

Ah, yes. "Both sides" indeed.

 

[Toni]

Okay...for the sake of the thread not getting weird, lets just stop mentioning "together" and "Joel/Ellie" in the same sentence.

 

[Jedi2016]

The Last of Us: Ellie's Crazy Post-Apocalyptic Lesbian Extravaganza.

I think we have our OT title right here, folks.

I'm okay with whatever NG decides to do.

 

[Aspiring]

It's sad/funny how little things have changed. You had people up in arms over a black protagonist back when San Andreas was revealed.

I guess now at least people don't care much that Ellie is in fact gay, just can't be too gay, else they riot.

Not wanting to get caught up in any arguments but have people seriously ever said if she is too gay they wont play it?!

 

[firehawk12]

Aside from Tess or Marlene or Tommy's wife...

I'm talking distinctly about the small village that Joel massacres when he rescues Ellie. All the women and children just... disappear? Convenient, because they don't want to show him as a complete psychopath who stabs children with broken bottles, I guess.

 

[shadowsdarknes]

I think it's kind of funny how much some people are worried about making her sexuality be "front and center". I feel like subtlety is pretty strong in TLOU. There's implications with Joel and Tess's history but their prior romance is never in your face. Or some driving, hours long plot thread

Same subtlety goes for the dlc imo. I think, viewed in a semi-vacuum without reading interviews and what not, you don't necessarily get slapped in the face with Ellie being gay. They are two young people trying to have a little fun in a super fucked up world. I didn't see their interactions like some sort of air horn that just screams LESBIAN everytime you blow it.

Bottom line is, Ellie is gay it is part of her character and we should acknowledge it in a way that's appropriate to who she is and the story being told. This game isn't called The Last of Us: Ellie's crazy post apocalyptic lesbian extravaganza. None of the characters in TLOU (to my memory) were these blatant, in your face stereotypes. They were as complex and as human as any we've ever seen in video games. Seems totally ridiculous to me that people would think ND would boil any character down to a single note, Ellie or otherwise.

I think that's fair.

But there are also people and quotes in this thread talking about how their sexual identity is a huge part of their overall identity and they love to express it. That's perfectly fine. But I don't think that adds much value to the game if Ellie derives everything about the way she expresses herself from her sexuality. And I don't think ND would do that.

 

[Lng0004]

First, somebody define "super gay" for me please. Will giving Ellie a short haircut, dress her up in flannel be "super gay" enough?

/eyeroll

 

[jett]

Not wanting to get caught up in any arguments but have people seriously ever said if she is too gay they wont play it?!

lol I actually don't know, I was exaggerating.

 

[Madame M]

The coming Vice President of the United States wants to electrocute homosexuals and repeal any laws of equality, but here we have fuckboi one, two, and three who are oh so concerned that their video game won't be the usual non-reflective heterosexual power fantasy that will constantly stroke their dicks and reaffirm their manhood, and if they don't get it, it's basically equivalent to the genocide of an entire population. Those poor souls.

And that's not talking about the so-called moderates with their veiled excuses for the status quo and "both sides" and whatever nonsense they can conjure up to serve as impediments towards the mere presence of non-straight existence.

Maybe they just have "Low T" and don't want to get a cream? That shit will make your kids enter puberty at like 5