ZeroTheShadow
Member
Really guys? The film was just okay and it certainly didn't make A New Hope any better.
Rogue One is so good it improves the entire trilogy (SPOILERS)
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Slamtastic
Member
there are 3 of them
We need an ewok side story to show their suffering under imperial oppression and their development of guerilla techniques to properly restore RotJ to its rightful place as a great SW movie
How bout a ROTJ that doesn't have cuddly teddy bears defeating the galactic empire and not using endor as a vehicle for a loose Vietnam analogy.
SapphiCine
Member
Jesus Christ. I don't think some people know how good dramatic storytelling works. Yes, shortcuts can work but they need a proper foundation to work off of.
Jyn and her relationship with her father is a focal point of the film. Yet it is developed with shortcuts. It is not enough to know they are father and daughter and he wants to protect her, for it to work on a dramatic level.
Also fuck Stardust. That was so forced and yet they kept relying on it.
DevilSnake
Member
It retconned the gaping Death Star flaw people made fun of for years & managed to give one of, if not the most iconic cinema villain of all time arguably his best scene ever, for those two reasons alone it improves the original trilogy.
Also loved how it actually added
from the prequels too, despite the planet being the only one which wasn't name tagged in the film, I thought Disney were just burying those entirely when it came to the film universe.
Also loved how it actually added
Mustafa
HiredN00bs
Banned
Oh I really enjoyed the prequel trilogy references too. I'll make sure to clap for those if I get dragged back to this middling action flick addition to the franchise.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Yeah, same. Didn't particularly like the retcon either.
talkingood
Member
I agree. Rogue One was great and it improves A New Hope for me. That said, both movies can stand on their own.
I actually liked the characters in R1 too, and I'm surprised so many people feel like they were cardboard cutouts. They weren't the best characters I've ever seen in a film, but they were perfectly likeable and I had no problem empathizing with them.
I actually liked the characters in R1 too, and I'm surprised so many people feel like they were cardboard cutouts. They weren't the best characters I've ever seen in a film, but they were perfectly likeable and I had no problem empathizing with them.
bishopcruz
Member
I can understand people saying that they wished that Jyn and crew were better developed. I can even agree. I think for example the film would have been stronger if we'd had what appears to be her introduction from the early trailers, more time with Saw, and her as a lot more of hardass early on. I don't think we really needed a lot more time with the others,
What I don't understand is those who are saying that TFAs characters were much better. Who was much better?
The desert hobo who spoke every language, was a force prodigy the like we've never seen, and who has surprisingly good social skills for her background? The one everyone loves from the second they meet her? The one whose only point of conflict was a 30 second scene of running away?
The former Stormtrooper, raised since he was a child to be a soldier and brainwashed, who shows absolutely none of this in his personality, is nothing but comic relief, and whose main point of conflict was a 30 second scene of him running away?
Or was it the all american badass pilot, who was snarky, and had less than 10 minutes of screentime and no journey at all?
Or maybe it was the villain, a 30 year-old man child who sits in his room reciting goth poetry to a melted helmet, but at least has the slightest bit of a journey?
Yep, those characters are SOOOO much stronger.
What I don't understand is those who are saying that TFAs characters were much better. Who was much better?
The desert hobo who spoke every language, was a force prodigy the like we've never seen, and who has surprisingly good social skills for her background? The one everyone loves from the second they meet her? The one whose only point of conflict was a 30 second scene of running away?
The former Stormtrooper, raised since he was a child to be a soldier and brainwashed, who shows absolutely none of this in his personality, is nothing but comic relief, and whose main point of conflict was a 30 second scene of him running away?
Or was it the all american badass pilot, who was snarky, and had less than 10 minutes of screentime and no journey at all?
Or maybe it was the villain, a 30 year-old man child who sits in his room reciting goth poetry to a melted helmet, but at least has the slightest bit of a journey?
Yep, those characters are SOOOO much stronger.
To Far Away Times
Member
I loved The Force Awakens, but this... Eh.
Damn
You, I like you.
Not to mention Jyn>>>>Rey.
Edit: Thinking about it,If the ending of Rogue One had characters like in TFA, Jyn would've suddenly discovered that she is force sensitive, and since she has heard stories of Jedi Force Pull, she tries to force pull the Death Star into the Sun, and succeeds on her second try. Everyone is Happy. The End.
Okay, that's a hyperbole but you get the point
BigWeather
Member
Watched TFA today for the first time since seeing RO and it just feels so... small in comparison. I also found the characters in RO more interesting and three dimensional, and I love the depth it added to both the Rebellion and the Empire. The First Order and Vader-lite (and Snoke) don't hold a candle to the Empire threat-wise. I'm hoping VIII fixes this.
The One and Done
Member
Yes it really did.
killertofu
Member
God I'm just like reading the wiki trying to jog my brain and its so damn messy. Did they ever say why they wanted to kill Galen instead of extracting him?
I mean... the dude didn't want to work with the empire? I'm sure he has a LOT of information that could be beneficial.
I think everyone's fandom is letting them fill in the blanks for the film, but when you take it at face value it really is as lifeless as CGI Leia.
Edit:
I am REALLY not seeing 'the depth' of which that it grays the rebellion/empire. I guess when the conflict was as shallow as it was in the originals any flourish could be seen as "depth".
I mean... the dude didn't want to work with the empire? I'm sure he has a LOT of information that could be beneficial.
I think everyone's fandom is letting them fill in the blanks for the film, but when you take it at face value it really is as lifeless as CGI Leia.
Edit:
I am REALLY not seeing 'the depth' of which that it grays the rebellion/empire. I guess when the conflict was as shallow as it was in the originals any flourish could be seen as "depth".
Prototype Viktor
Member
This but that ain't saying much. Could have used more ketchup packets for blood tho with all the death this movie was allowed
tearsintherain
Member
I just rewatched TFA tonight for the first time since I saw it (twice) in theaters last year.
I enjoyed TFA and Rogue One, both, but TFA is the movie I think I would add to the "rewatch along with TFA/ESB/ROTJ" pantheon, whereas Rogue One is a movie I may watch once more at home and probably never again, like Phantom Menace or Attack of the Clones. Not saying its as bad or anything, but there really isn't much to rewatch except for 10 minutes of cool space battles and 30 seconds of Vader.
I just can't believe though people really prefer Jyn to Ren. That seems insane to me. Beyond the fact that Jyn was more or less emotionless the entire movie, her entire character arc has been shown and is done. Ren has AT LEAST one more movie to go, possibly two, and there is a strong probability she will learn Jedi training, train with Luke, fight Snoke, etc, etc. That is some Luke level shit that is going to go down. Her eyes and face were very expressive too.
Sorry, the acting in TFA was on a whole another level compared to the acting in Rogue One. Finn, Rey, Han, Chewie, and Poe were all just fantastic to watch together. While the cameo by Vader in R1 was great, the appearance by Luke at the end of TFA was a "holy fuck... I am shivering again" ON MY THIRD WATCH. Thats just insane. I rewatched the Vader R1 fight on youtube just now and its cool but loses most of the impact on rewatch. I would easily argue the best character in R1 was K2 with no real competition, whereas in TFA I'd accept any answer of Ren, Finn, Poe, Han, Chewie, Kylo, or BB8.
I enjoyed TFA and Rogue One, both, but TFA is the movie I think I would add to the "rewatch along with TFA/ESB/ROTJ" pantheon, whereas Rogue One is a movie I may watch once more at home and probably never again, like Phantom Menace or Attack of the Clones. Not saying its as bad or anything, but there really isn't much to rewatch except for 10 minutes of cool space battles and 30 seconds of Vader.
I just can't believe though people really prefer Jyn to Ren. That seems insane to me. Beyond the fact that Jyn was more or less emotionless the entire movie, her entire character arc has been shown and is done. Ren has AT LEAST one more movie to go, possibly two, and there is a strong probability she will learn Jedi training, train with Luke, fight Snoke, etc, etc. That is some Luke level shit that is going to go down. Her eyes and face were very expressive too.
Sorry, the acting in TFA was on a whole another level compared to the acting in Rogue One. Finn, Rey, Han, Chewie, and Poe were all just fantastic to watch together. While the cameo by Vader in R1 was great, the appearance by Luke at the end of TFA was a "holy fuck... I am shivering again" ON MY THIRD WATCH. Thats just insane. I rewatched the Vader R1 fight on youtube just now and its cool but loses most of the impact on rewatch. I would easily argue the best character in R1 was K2 with no real competition, whereas in TFA I'd accept any answer of Ren, Finn, Poe, Han, Chewie, Kylo, or BB8.
Adam_Vania
Banned
i havent seen Rogue One. i bet it seemingly improves ANH by adding context to a lot of stuff. visualizing the war aspects of Star WARS seems like a good addition to the series.
but imo Star Wars was never about War. our heroes in Empire spend 75% of the movie completely ignoring the rebellion. Empire also does a good enough job at the war stuff in that intro.
again i will hold off judgement until i see it. i can see how it would add to the movies. the series has always done this: the first movie was Star Wars. everything past that expanded the mythos. not just by showing us what could happen but also altering how we see the past, how we look at the previous films. Empire and Jedi added twists that fundamentally altered the previous movies.
i grew up with the original movies, the original trilogy. it has been odd to go back and rewatch Empire or Jedi with the SE and further changes and re-adjust my imagination to include these new versions. it just feels unnatural. when i see the Emperor re-recorded and talking to Vader about Anakin in Empire, it takes me out of the movie, it reminds me that it is an edit made decades after the movie was originally shot.
imo Star Wars is MOST potent when you have just seen it and not seen any of the other films. it is a film universe created in your mind alone, when Obi-Wan is talking about the Clone Wars, or whatever, nobody had any clue what any of this stuff was, so it could have been anything. the movie is the combination of the actors wearing the costumes and playing these roles, saying this dialog that they didn't even understand, with the score and sound effects and art design all playing their roles, and with you playing the ultimate role, creating that Star Wars universe in your mind. it is most potent when it is what we take it to be. a jumping off point for the imagination.
im sure there will be many good and even great Star Wars films to come. but we are entering a realm of over-saturation, all mystery is being sapped, and it's at once a blessing and a curse.
but imo Star Wars was never about War. our heroes in Empire spend 75% of the movie completely ignoring the rebellion. Empire also does a good enough job at the war stuff in that intro.
again i will hold off judgement until i see it. i can see how it would add to the movies. the series has always done this: the first movie was Star Wars. everything past that expanded the mythos. not just by showing us what could happen but also altering how we see the past, how we look at the previous films. Empire and Jedi added twists that fundamentally altered the previous movies.
i grew up with the original movies, the original trilogy. it has been odd to go back and rewatch Empire or Jedi with the SE and further changes and re-adjust my imagination to include these new versions. it just feels unnatural. when i see the Emperor re-recorded and talking to Vader about Anakin in Empire, it takes me out of the movie, it reminds me that it is an edit made decades after the movie was originally shot.
imo Star Wars is MOST potent when you have just seen it and not seen any of the other films. it is a film universe created in your mind alone, when Obi-Wan is talking about the Clone Wars, or whatever, nobody had any clue what any of this stuff was, so it could have been anything. the movie is the combination of the actors wearing the costumes and playing these roles, saying this dialog that they didn't even understand, with the score and sound effects and art design all playing their roles, and with you playing the ultimate role, creating that Star Wars universe in your mind. it is most potent when it is what we take it to be. a jumping off point for the imagination.
im sure there will be many good and even great Star Wars films to come. but we are entering a realm of over-saturation, all mystery is being sapped, and it's at once a blessing and a curse.
I know you're being facetious but you kind of proved why the characters in TFA are better than RO. TFA's characters are at the start of a journey and need to be memorable and likable. While RO's characters just need to pass the baton to ANH thus feeling unnecessary and disposable.
Of the six heroes in RO I can't even do a full ironic sentence about their character traits.
Girl with father issues who rebels.
Rebel guy who shoots first and sarcastic robot with no filter.
Blind force guy with stick and guy with big gun.
Pilot guy who says the name of the movie.
Also, a lot of your criticism with TFA seem to be more about tone than character. Characters that for example have their aunt and uncle burned alive hours earlier or have their home planet destroyed are still able to joke around and be snarky if the tone fits.
1. They didn't know the Death Star had been completed yet when the order was first given.
2. They don't know he doesn't want to work for the Empire. Or were they supposed to take Gyn's word for it?
killertofu
Member
Well shit I feel like that's a lot of work just to kill one dude. Might as well try and grab him in case there's useful information. It's not like he's the only one that could finish the job.
I mean, the movie even spells out in (over-moralizing) detail that it's easier to kill someone than to save them.
I feel like you're reaching more than the fandom you're deriding.
I'll agree with this. Want to talk about forced, Han's death in TFA and that entire ending
I honestly had no idea so many people thought the Death Star's weak point was a "plot hole" until they all came out of the woodwork after this movie was released.
Rogue One is a good movie, and its perspective on the conflict is something I wanted to see a lot just because I think the Star Wars universe is cool. But I don't think the original movies benefit from that kind of perspective, because they're tonally very different things.
Rogue One is a good movie, and its perspective on the conflict is something I wanted to see a lot just because I think the Star Wars universe is cool. But I don't think the original movies benefit from that kind of perspective, because they're tonally very different things.
killertofu
Member
Yes I get that a bullet to the brain is easier than taking out a whole squad to get one guy.
The movie just seems to try and jump through hoops to make sense of a bad plot.
I just need to go finish watching Gilmore girls. At least those fans know when Rory started being a terrible character.
From your posts, it seemed more like you need plot points of Disney movies spelled out for you from people who understand them.
Zeus Molecules
illegal immigrants are stealing our air
They wanted to kill Galen because they assumed without him they couldn't build the Death Star. This isn't true and he himself admits that they couldn of done it without him. However, everybody else assumes it's true, and he doesn't give them an opportunity to think it through because he does such a good job helping them build it.
The only hope for his rebellion was the creation of his "flaw" but to the rebels it looks like he is at best a defector. Which not for nothing made sense in hindsight of why that 1 simple exhaust tunnel could cause the whole ship to blow up. If they had any doubt of his loyalty they would of probably of found it.
This, and even then the posters "reply/rebuttal" was to call the plot terrible despite it being abundantly clear that the poster wasn't paying attention at all.
Vampirolol
Member
The "Death Star plot hole" has always been a way to understand if you were talking to someone who didn't get Star Wars at all. It's like if some people don't want a movie to be fun. But the best part of all this is that Rogue One doesn't even solve the "plot hole": you still have to believe that the men of the empire built a giant weapon without noticing there was a giant tunnel leading to the core; and without checking again with other experts if there was any problem in the concept.
You have to believe that the empire is that stupid, wich for me is fine, but for the edgy people that want grounded Star Wars may almost be offensive.
TFA doesnt handle nor earn shit cause is a fucking remake of ANH.
A disgrace of a movie even TPM is better than that trash.
LegalEagleMike
Member
You could take the best parts of all of the prequel trilogy together and they still would not touch TFA.
UnemployedVillain
Member
In what world is taking someone alive easier than assassinating them from a distance or through an aerial bombing run (which was because they had confirmed it was an Empire base and there were important people there)?
Every antagonist from the prequel trilogy was better than Kylo Ren, in terms of design, fighting style, ect. Maul was better. Dooku was better. Grevious was better. The only advantage he had over them was having an actual character, even though it amounted to overemotional Vader fanboy
ZackieChan
Member
There's more to all of those characters than your flippant descriptions are letting on. Maybe you weren't paying attention to the movie?
Saw this in the theater today with my family and fell asleep. It was not a great movie but it was not bad. I was never really a huge fan though. I did feel that It went on too long, I guess that could be the reason I fell asleep.
The Leia CGI was on some mummy returns scorpion king tier though
The Leia CGI was on some mummy returns scorpion king tier though
UnemployedVillain
Member
It wasn't even close to approaching the realm of being that bad
Saucestin_Roast
Member
Just saw it a second time. For me, the film is one of the better Star Wars movies. I might even put it at #3 on the list. But damn it's pretty gruesome for a Star Wars film.
I really think Leia's CGI wasn't even that bad. It's obviously CGI but its not film ruining or anything like that. I'd rather them have it in there than not.
Anyways, I love this film. Starts a little slow but man when it gets going it gets going. A little brutal, but it was necessary for this story.
Also, how do people come into a thread and just say "nah." Thanks for adding something intelligent to the discussion.
I really think Leia's CGI wasn't even that bad. It's obviously CGI but its not film ruining or anything like that. I'd rather them have it in there than not.
Anyways, I love this film. Starts a little slow but man when it gets going it gets going. A little brutal, but it was necessary for this story.
Also, how do people come into a thread and just say "nah." Thanks for adding something intelligent to the discussion.
888
Member
Disney Corp dropped all that money for Star Wars..of course they are guiding it to what they want. George Lucas himself said Disney didn't use his ideas..why would he say Disney didn't use his ideas if Disney wasn't apart of it?
http://www.slashfilm.com/george-lucas-star-wars-episode-vii
https://www.google.com/amp/deadline.com/2015/01/george-lucas-star-wars-ideas-not-used-disney-1201354673/amp/
Here is a quote from JJ Abrams from the top link above.
Before I showed up, it was already something that Disney had decided they wanted to go a different way with. But the spirit of what he wrote, both in those pages and prior, is everything that this movie is built upon.
They have a huge vested interest in it, between the expansions of their parks to include Star Wars, to TV shows, Toys, Clothes. Anyone here saying they aren't having a part in the films are the ones that are ignorant.
Disney didn't drop that much money for Star Wars to let it just flap in the wind.
And yes Lucas Films was already established but if you think the exeuctives aren't following Disney's orders you are insane.
Star wars is too big for Disney not to have some say in the films.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2488496/companycredits?mode=desktop
Walt DISNEY Studios Motion pictures is also listed as a production company and also distributed the films.
OT: yes I enjoyed the movie. Saw it twice. It certainly was more entertaining that TFA. Felt like it was part of the original trilogy and really sets up ANH in a more believable way and makes it flow better. There were parts of the movie that dragged but once it finally got going it was excellent.
Boogalogist
Member
I love this movie. Right after I came home from the cinema, I just had to put on ANH just to watch first 10 mins. It really does improve ANH for me.
Neverthelesser
Member
To me, Kylo Ren's infatuation with Darth Vader and his softer nature as a villain are some of the best aspects of the character. His motivations are clear, he has a meaningful background, and if Abrams was going to take several notes from the ANH formula, I'm glad he opted not to clumsily replicate the ominous, badass icon of Vader. I don't think I'd be able to watch TFA knowing that Lucasfilm chose to make Ren a bland, brooding Sith Lord reincarnate. Ren's softer nature makes him much more interesting as a character.
Vicetrailia
Banned
Movie is vastly overrated. It's solid, and is definitely star wars though.
And the movie is mostly devoid of special moments.
And the movie is mostly devoid of special moments.
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