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[Zereta]

Every antagonist from the prequel trilogy was better than Kylo Ren, in terms of design, fighting style, ect. Maul was better. Dooku was better. Grevious was better. The only advantage he had over them was having an actual character, even though it amounted to overemotional Vader fanboy

Thinking of Kylo Ren as an antagonist is your first mistake. He's not a villain in the same sense. Him being an overemotional Vader fanboy is exactly what makes him interesting as opposed to"FIRST ORDER HAHA I'M GONNA BE EEEEEVIL"

He's the anti-Darth Vader desperately trying to be Darth Vader. That's an interesting character.

 

[norinrad]

Jesus Christ. I don't think some people know how good dramatic storytelling works. Yes, shortcuts can work but they need a proper foundation to work off of.

Jyn and her relationship with her father is a focal point of the film. Yet it is developed with shortcuts. It is not enough to know they are father and daughter and he wants to protect her, for it to work on a dramatic level.

Also fuck Stardust. That was so forced and yet they kept relying on it.

Perhaps I don't know how story telling works, but most of us do not need to see how a father child relationship works or what it is like because we can see it and it was self explanatory from the beginning up till the father was killed. I have no idea what else you wanted. Not being able to see her dad was always on display and if you could not see that then fine. Even her short and brief relationship with Saw was also right there on display and how emotional their encounter was.

I'm not sure what you want. The movie was good and I for one felt great leaving the theater and with the thought it was great to see Vader again. Made me smile and nostalgic. No one is going to take that away from me with their complaining about how the movie should have been made.

 

[Mr. Mister]

I'm not sure what you want. The movie was good and I for one felt great leaving the theater and with the thought it was great to see Vader again. Made me smile and nostalgic. No one is going to take that away from me with their complaining about how the movie should have been made.

Damn, insecure much? No one is trying to take away your enjoyment. If you liked it good on you.

It's like all the folks writing edge lord and disappearing, just feels like some strange defensive projecting.

 

[Bulzeeb]

I liked that they explained why such a huge weapon like the death star had that silly weakness

edit:

I caught more feels from K2's last stand than from all of TFA put together.

I agree with that, by the end of the movie I cared more for the main cast and their fates than any of the characters on TFA and that was interesting because at the start of the movie I wasn't expecting anything from the,, heck all of the new characters in TFA could have died an horrible death and I would have been like "well proceed then, whatever".

 

[theCalamity]

Thinking of Kylo Ren as an antagonist is your first mistake. He's not a villain in the same sense. Him being an overemotional Vader fanboy is exactly what makes him interesting as opposed to"FIRST ORDER HAHA I'M GONNA BE EEEEEVIL"

He's the anti-Darth Vader desperately trying to be Darth Vader. That's an interesting character.

Kylo Ren is the definition of antagonist. Just FYI.

 

[norinrad]

Damn, insecure much? No one is trying to take away your enjoyment. If you liked it good on you.

It's like all the folks writing edge lord and disappearing, just feels like some strange defensive projecting.

I liked it and there's nothing insecure about what I said, I didn't like TFA but have no issues with those who did.

R1 was an awesome movie. It's OK to be a critic but at least try positive critism instead of coming up with all sorts of things that weren't even relevant to begin with.

 

[It's Reyn Time!]

In what world is taking someone alive easier than assassinating them from a distance or through an aerial bombing run (which was because they had confirmed it was an Empire base and there were important people there)?




Every antagonist from the prequel trilogy was better than Kylo Ren, in terms of design, fighting style, ect. Maul was better. Dooku was better. Grevious was better. The only advantage he had over them was having an actual character, even though it amounted to overemotional Vader fanboy

The qualities you appreciate in an antagonist are not universal. Yours seemingly boil down to 'looks cool and fights good'. To others, that's piss poor.

 

[PandaShake]

Saw it again and enjoyed it. Really satisfied with both movies. Looking forward to Ep 8.

 

[The One and Done™]

So now cats are shitting on TFA ITT? Rich.

 

[Atraveller]

The hyperbole is getting stupid.

The hottest of hot takes.

Rogue one was a one time watch. You can literally not watch it and pretend like it never happened.

That applies to every piece of media.

 

[matrix-cat]

Every antagonist from the prequel trilogy was better than Kylo Ren, in terms of design, fighting style, ect. Maul was better. Dooku was better. Grevious was better. The only advantage he had over them was having an actual character, even though it amounted to overemotional Vader fanboy

I want to get this post framed. The *only* advantage he had was that he was a character, with a personality and motivations, but he never spun four lightsabres around so who gives a shit lol.

 

[Gekko87]

just feels like some strange defensive projecting.

Damn, reading into comments much? I can't believe your defending some of these trash opinions with no substance (paper thin characters, worst then the prequels, Disney has its hands, etc). Reading through the first couple of pages of any popular topic on gaf is so obnoxious and insufferable.

 

[Vilam]

TFA's characters are at the start of a journey and need to be memorable and likable.

Outside of Rey, they failed at that for me. Can't stand either of Finn or Poe. Plenty of unlikable side characters in TFA as well.

 

[DR2K]

Movie was fantastic. Easily the best in the series.

 

[sappyday]

Jesus I never thought this one would be more decisive than TFA. I came out of TFA underwhelmed, with a lot of things aching me. I left out of this one thinking for a side story they did a pretty great job. If we're shitting on a side story then I can't imagine how much shit the Solo spin off will get even if it's really good.

 

[Lord Panda]

I hated The Force Awakens so went into this movie with some trepidation.

Rogue One blew me away. Sure it's not perfect, the soundtrack verging on being forgettable, but I was bloody entertained as heck. It also had one of the best Star Wars space battles.

 

[Mr. Mister]

Damn, reading into comments much? I can't believe your defending some of these trash opinions with no substance (paper thin characters, worst then the prequels, Disney has its hands, etc). Reading through the first couple of pages of any popular topic on gaf is so obnoxious and insufferable.

Lol. You mean the multiple opinions backed by examples and evidence? Or the hot takes like "well I just like knew a dad was important". No duh - everyone knows that which is why it isn't proper character development.

This movie was clearly focus tested to hell and back & we got the Star Wars equivalent of a McDonald's hamburger (same with TFA). Nothing wrong with that and McDonald's makes a lot of money but it's meant to be consumed and forgotten and definitely isn't above criticism.

 

[wildfire]

To claim that this movie was good is not an affront to film so much as it is as affront to storytelling.


It's mostly reactionary. People say things like it was the best film ever made and statements like that irk people who think critically about them. The production of this movie was outstanding and it had moments of action that were outstanding, but it never earned emotional connection to its characters, which is gravely disappointing for people who wanted it be an awesome movie. I feel like people who felt sad when characters in this movie die also felt sad when Wolverine's girlfriend dies in Origins. I simply don't understand why.

The people who say Rogue One was mediocre or bland or worse than the prequels aren't thinking critically either.


Rogue One makes mistakes but as a whole is a good movie that excellently adds to the original trilogy.


I still debate with myself if RO to new people should be shown before or after ANH.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Honestly the weakness of death star wasn't even that much of a weakness.
It needed a suicide mission, a Jedi initiate and the assistance of the force and a force ghost to blow up the first death star.

 

[norinrad]

Lol. You mean the multiple opinions backed by examples and evidence? Or the hot takes like "well I just like knew a dad was important". No duh - everyone knows that which is why it isn't proper character development.

This movie was clearly focus tested to hell and back & we got the Star Wars equivalent of a McDonald's hamburger (same with TFA). Nothing wrong with that and McDonald's makes a lot of money but it's meant to be consumed and forgotten and definitely isn't above criticism.

What evidence? Evidence from people who post on the internet pretending they were at the table when the decision to make the movie was taken?

 

[Mr. Mister]

What evidence? Evidence from people who post on the internet pretending they were at the table when the decision to make the movie was taken?

Where is the evidence that Lucasfilm calls the shots? As George himself has said they scrapped everything about his movie yet somehow the one that came after it was pure and clean. Lets not forget all the rumors that Disney execs were behind the re-shoots which you seemed to love. If anything you should be thanking Disney for saving this - you loved it!

 

[keenerz]

To be honest, it was a pretty decent movie.
I think it more so gave casual average star wars fans the understanding of the might of the empire and Vader. (For those who dont go deeper into the lore)

Also I thought TFA was generally ok too. To me, it relied too much on rehashing a lot of the old trilogy scenes. I'm more exciting for episode 8 cause that's hopefully going to be more new original story.

 

[Nosgotham]

I agree wholeheartedly with OP. Makes me want to watch the original trilogy and makes me understand what's on the line a little better

 

[Koodo]

I agree with OP. An amazing movie that continues to prove that handing the reigns to Disney was the best thing that could happen to this franchise.

 

[Gekko87]

Where is the evidence that Lucasfilm calls the shots? Lets not forget all the rumors that Disney execs were behind the re-shoots which you seemed to love.

I suppose I shouldn't be surprise people these days take rumors as fact. In one of the behind scenes footage there was video of George Lucas talking to who I have to imagine are his writers on what the force is. With him is Dave Filoni and I'm pretty sure this is before the buyout. Filoni is now overseeing all Lucasfilm animation projects. Are you still going to be jaded and tell me lucasfilm isn't calling shots? If I'm incorrect please by all means prove me wrong. I'm sure Disney is pushing ideas and LF trying to make it work (like the Han Solo movie) but I genuinely believe rogue one was made from LF themselves.

 

[Mr. Mister]

I suppose I shouldn't be surprise people these days take rumors as fact. In one of the behind scenes footage there was video of George Lucas talking to who I have to imagine are his writers on what the force is. With him is Dave Filoni and I'm pretty sure this is before the buyout. Filoni is now overseeing all Lucasfilm animation projects. Are you still going to be jaded and tell me lucasfilm isn't calling shots? If I'm incorrect please by all means prove me wrong. I'm sure Disney is pushing ideas and LF trying to make it work (like the Han Solo movie) but I genuinely believe rogue one was made from LF themselves.

You can genuinely believe anything but you've got no proof. The fact that Disney left people at Lucas Film in positions of power and didn't fire everyone is exactly how these things work and is evidence of nothing.

I think taking the position that Disney had absolutely nothing to do with RO contradicts the way business works, Disneys past, and the rumors. How would LF go about making that movie all by themselves - it's laughable.

I'm not ever jaded about it. I have no dog in the fight. Both entities are kings of derivative and the movie felt like bad fan fiction to me.

 

[DeathyBoy]

Jesus Christ. I don't think some people know how good dramatic storytelling works. Yes, shortcuts can work but they need a proper foundation to work off of.

Jyn and her relationship with her father is a focal point of the film. Yet it is developed with shortcuts. It is not enough to know they are father and daughter and he wants to protect her, for it to work on a dramatic level.

Also fuck Stardust. That was so forced and yet they kept relying on it.

Masters in scriptwriting here. The first hour and a half was a slog as it is, I don't think more scenes or montages would've helped it. Especially scenes that scream "you will feel emotions."

Maybe better acting was needed, but I don't think you'll suddenly relate to the themes more if you had another scene at the start showing Saw training Jyn - the juxtaposition between scared kid Jyn and I hate authority Jyn is showing us she's changed.

 

[HiredN00bs]

The people who say Rogue One was mediocre or bland or worse than the prequels aren't thinking critically either.

Really? What are we missing? Do you have to read a book or something to feel an emotional connection to these flat characters? The film was of moderate quality as a film. It was well-produced with impressive action and special effects and little character exposition. It was your basic summer blockbuster that most people who care about the medium would write off.

 

[Ushojax]

Really? What are we missing? Do you have to read a book or something to feel an emotional connection to these flat characters? The film was of moderate quality as a film. It was well-produced with impressive action and special effects and little character exposition. It was your basic summer blockbuster that most people who care about the medium would write off.

Most people are just happy to be watching SW films that are in the same ballpark as the OT in terms of the tone. After the wretched prequels there are now actual moments of humour, characters with some texture, a sense of adventure etc. Neither Rogue One or TFA are masterpieces of cinema but they feel like Star Wars, which is what people want when they buy a ticket for a Star Wars movie. A basic summer blockbuster is a hell of a lot better than what we had to endure before Disney bought the rights.

People who "care about the medium" were the people that didn't like Star Wars in 1977, these are fun fantasy movies for all the family, not 2001 or Blade Runner.

 

[Zushin]

You know what all this talk of antagonists makes me want? A Darth Maul 'Star Wars Story'.

 

[Einchy]

You know what all this talk of antagonists makes me want? A Darth Maul 'Star Wars Story'.

That's what Clone Wars and Rebels is.

Really? What are we missing? Do you have to read a book or something to feel an emotional connection to these flat characters? The film was of moderate quality as a film. It was well-produced with impressive action and special effects and little character exposition. It was your basic summer blockbuster that most people who care about the medium would write off.

🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄

 

[Zushin]

That's what Clone Wars and Rebels is.


�� �� �� ��

Ah, I havent watched those. I'll have to check them out.

 

[CloudWolf]

Thinking of Kylo Ren as an antagonist is your first mistake. He's not a villain in the same sense. Him being an overemotional Vader fanboy is exactly what makes him interesting as opposed to"FIRST ORDER HAHA I'M GONNA BE EEEEEVIL"

He's the anti-Darth Vader desperately trying to be Darth Vader. That's an interesting character.

But he is the antagonist of the movies, how else do you propose we think of him? He's just a different kind of antagonist than Vader, but he's still the main antagonist. And a poor one at that. Sorry, but when your main antagonist throws a hissy fit when something doesn't go his way, I'm not going to take him serious as a villain.

 

[wildfire]

Really? What are we missing? Do you have to read a book or something to feel an emotional connection to these flat characters? The film was of moderate quality as a film. It was well-produced with impressive action and special effects and little character exposition. It was your basic summer blockbuster that most people who care about the medium would write off.

You see the problem with most of you people hung up on RO being bad is that you are interested only in good characterizations.

95% of the complaints seem to be about that.


Guess what? As important it is a movie has apt more in it that van also be enjoyed.


Rogue one's strength lies mostly in world building and action pieces.

While Rogue One was weak at making individual characters it was strong at adding layers to factions.

Even though the musical score was derivative all of the action sequences really got across the mindsets of the people in combat, such as how desolate the rebels were to get any wins, how much the Imperiale varied in professionalism and readiness to how much contempt Saw's band and the Imperials had for each other.


Your focus on only characters being the most important thing is your hang up not ours.

 

[theCalamity]

The people who say Rogue One was mediocre or bland or worse than the prequels aren't thinking critically either.

How are we not thinking critically? Now, I don't consider it to be worse than the prequels, but it is mediocre and bland. The central drama for the first half of the movie was predictable and pedestrian. We got seeds of conflict when Cassian gets the order to kill Galen. As soon as he got the order, I knew that he wouldn't take the shot.

Jyn is basically your standard young adult novel main character. She's the Hunger Games' Katniss, Divergent's Tris, Maze Runner's Thomas and so on. Cassian had a hint of something interesting when he killed that dude in the beginning. It's meant to make you think he'd kill Galen, but Cassian won't because he's a main character. You can make him a little bit questionable, but not too much. You can say he does bad things, but never show it, or else people might not like him.

While Rogue One was weak at making individual characters it was strong at adding layers to factions.

I don't care about factions. I want to care about the people in those factions. This movie's focus isn't on the factions. The movie focuses on Jyn and her drama with her dad. A good chunk of the movie is about her going to meet her dad. The third act is dependent on theme finding the plans that has her nickname on it.

If you are alright with thin characters and a weak narrative, that's great. We all got our opinions on it and I don't want to diminish your enjoyment of the movie. But don't come in and say people aren't thinking critically because we simply have a different opinion on it and are explaining why.

 

[kinggroin]

Rogue One's four main achievements in my view are:

1) Providing a really excellent retcon that explains the Death Star's fatal weak point. It's logical and adds a poignant new layer to ANH. Now, the destruction of the Death Star is Galen Erso's vindication too. He sacrificed his last years for a worthy cause.

2) Giving the Rebellion shades of gray. The previous films painted them almost as wide-eyed do-gooders. The good guys. Rogue One shows their cutthroat, morally questionable, pragmatic side.

3) Showing the human cost of the Empire's brutal methods.

4) And the least of the four, but so satisfying, was showing a little sample of how Vader earned his fearsome reputation.

P.S. Didn't take long for the hate train to show up. Sorry you don't like thing.


Or nitpick fucking every big release of the year because nothing can ever be good enough.

Agree with all of these

 

[Bruce Springsteen]

To be honest, it was a pretty decent movie.
I think it more so gave casual average star wars fans the understanding of the might of the empire and Vader. (For those who dont go deeper into the lore)

Also I thought TFA was generally ok too. To me, it relied too much on rehashing a lot of the old trilogy scenes. I'm more exciting for episode 8 cause that's hopefully going to be more new original story.

You realize that all the Star Wars movies are geared towards the casual fan?

 

[AlexFlame116]

I'll wait a bit and ask people their opinion of the movie in a couple of months to a year. I remember TFA getting praise when I asked people what they thought about it (I don't know own about GAF since I couldn't access the Internet for 2 years) but then months pass and people were slowly but surely changing their opinion of it.

So I'll wait and see. I already watched it though.

 

[wildfire]

If you are alright with thin characters and a weak narrative, that's great. We all got our opinions on it and I don't want to diminish your enjoyment of the movie. But don't come in and say people aren't thinking critically because we simply have a different opinion on it and are explaining why.

Nice of you to rail against the think critically comment against those who don't share your opinion and not those who do share your opinion like I quoted.


Anyway I actually don't like how they handled characterizations and most of my suggestions in threads about what you would change addresses exactly that.

Ultimately Rogue One has plenty going for it that I'm able to strongly recommend it to others unlike some other movies I saw this year.

 

[theCalamity]

Nice of you to rail against the think critically comment against those who don't share your opinion and not those who do share your opinion like I quoted.

I'm responsible for my opinions, not theirs. Besides, that post was from the beginning of the thread. That dude's not coming back.

Anyway I actually don't like how they handled characterizations and most of my suggestions in threads about what you would change addresses exactly that.

Ultimately Rogue One has plenty going for it that I'm able to strongly recommend it to others unlike some other movies I saw this year.

I'd recommend to people, too, even though I don't like it. Some of my friends love the movie, so with that huge difference in opinion, I'd rather someone watch it and see how they like it themselves. It's a well-made and visually stunning movie.

 

[ForsakenLotus]

Reading Catalyst also helps.

To me one of the things Rogue One does is explain how the entire Death Star could be destroyed by one explosion, and not in throwaway exposition.

Does one need to watch Rogue One before watching A New Hope? No. But personally I will.

 

[bishopcruz]

To me, Kylo Ren's infatuation with Darth Vader and his softer nature as a villain are some of the best aspects of the character. His motivations are clear, he has a meaningful background, and if Abrams was going to take several notes from the ANH formula, I'm glad he opted not to clumsily replicate the ominous, badass icon of Vader. I don't think I'd be able to watch TFA knowing that Lucasfilm chose to make Ren a bland, brooding Sith Lord reincarnate. Ren's softer nature makes him much more interesting as a character.

Ren is awful. You want to make a conflicted dark sider? Ok great, I mean Vader was that technically, but I get the concept. But Kylo is a massive failure of telling not showing. You want to show him struggling against the light? Have him spare people in the village in the opening, or hesitate greatly before giving the order. Have him actually hurt Rey a bit, and feel bad about it. Show him uneasy about blowing up billions of people. Make us think that he is THIS close to turning to the light, then pull the carpet out from under us. Then the scene with Han would work.

As it stands he acts like a mopey teenager, who might as well have posters to The Space Cure in his bedroom, as he talks about his pain and not wanting to be drawn into the light to what's essentially a skull. Hell, he's so much a a mopey teenager stereotype that people actually don't realize the dude is supposed to be 30 damned years old. He ceases to be threatening at all by the end of the film. It would honestly not bee too bad if Ren was the protagonist. And who knows, maybe there is a double bait and swtich, and he will eventually be the one on the heroes journey, but I find that doubtful. This isn't "The Emo Awakens" after all.

With the exception of movie Grievous. every single villain in the TV shows or movies is better than Kylo Ren. Hell, Hondo Onaka is more threatening and effective than anyone in the First Order, and he's comic relief. Compare the three villains in Rogue One to the three villains in TFA, and tell me who is scarier.

 

[Maintenance]

I recently watched the despecialized OT and man, the drop in quality from ESB to ROTJ is huge. Everything post Jabba is bad, Endor is prequel tier.

I liked Rogue One, but after re-watching the OT I understand some of the complaints. The plot goes everywhere, I kinda miss the simplicity of ANH: droids fall, need to take them to Alderaan, some Death Star shenanigans, battle over Yavin 4.

If I had to rank I would put R1 with ROTJ, some parts are good but other parts drag it down too much for it to reach ANH/ESB. Donnie Yen, that heavy weapons dude and that scene with Vader in the end are my favorite parts of R1, everything with Jyn was painful.

 

[JB1981]

Make us see that he is this close to turning to the light? The scene with Han is precisely that man

 

[MMarston]

Come in expecting more Rogue One/OT discussion.


Oh wait, people are doing the TFA thing again.

 

[ForsakenLotus]

I wonder if there is a segment of people who dislike TFA and RO as a response to the initial positive reception to The Phantom Menance and the prequel trilogy in general. An overcompensation of sorts.

 

[bishopcruz]

Make us see that he is this close to turning to the light? The scene with Han is precisely that man

No, it's really not. Can you honestly tell me you expected Han to survive that encounter? It was a foregone conclusion the second he walked out on that bridge. And the only reason we knew he was conflicted before that was because he sat in his room moping talking to the skull about the 'draw to the light'. He gave no fucks about murdering anyone before that.

 

[theCalamity]

No, it's really not. Can you honestly tell me you expected Han to survive that encounter? It was a foregone conclusion the second he walked out on that bridge. And the only reason we knew he was conflicted before that was because he sat in his room moping talking to the skull about the 'draw to the light'. He gave no fucks about murdering anyone before that.

We can't always have Zuko

 

[norinrad]

Ren is awful. You want to make a conflicted dark sider? Ok great, I mean Vader was that technically, but I get the concept. But Kylo is a massive failure of telling not showing. You want to show him struggling against the light? Have him spare people in the village in the opening, or hesitate greatly before giving the order. Have him actually hurt Rey a bit, and feel bad about it. Show him uneasy about blowing up billions of people. Make us think that he is THIS close to turning to the light, then pull the carpet out from under us. Then the scene with Han would work.

As it stands he acts like a mopey teenager, who might as well have posters to The Space Cure in his bedroom, as he talks about his pain and not wanting to be drawn into the light to what's essentially a skull. Hell, he's so much a a mopey teenager stereotype that people actually don't realize the dude is supposed to be 30 damned years old. He ceases to be threatening at all by the end of the film. It would honestly not bee too bad if Ren was the protagonist. And who knows, maybe there is a double bait and swtich, and he will eventually be the one on the heroes journey, but I find that doubtful. This isn't "The Emo Awakens" after all.

With the exception of movie Grievous. every single villain in the TV shows or movies is better than Kylo Ren. Hell, Hondo Onaka is more threatening and effective than anyone in the First Order, and he's comic relief. Compare the three villains in Rogue One to the three villains in TFA, and tell me who is scarier.

A bit off topic but I liked Ren until he took the mask off. ROTFL.

Vader without his mask was still intimidating as hell.

 

[Bronx-Man]

Just checking, how many of you would get a Rogue One + A New Hope dvd combo bundle? Because I'd buy that in a heartbeat.