A great example of this is what happened to excite trucks sequel..excite bots. They added that really stupid and pointless motion gimmick where you had to stop racing and rotate the controls around to make your car swing around a pole...it was so dumb. All I wanted was excite truck with new tracks and online!
Monkey Paw: Do we REALLY-REALLY want a new F-ZERO?
- Thread starter IAmMonodi
- Start date
EatinOlives
Member
Exactly. Hell, I would even take F-Zero X style, which Miyamoto inexplicably would like better despite the two games really not being all that different.
Unfortunately Nintendo's not interested in making those kinds of games anymore. I'd rather they not do anything with the series at all if they're not willing to hand the reins over to a capable developer.
GabeTheGrouch76
Member
As far as I'm concerned, it largely depends on who they would get to oversee it / hold the most creative control if they did try another one.
Miyamoto's kinda an obvious red flag right now due to how he misfired screwed up Star Fox Zero; but I will cut him a bit of slack and say I don't think his ideas or intentions weren't inherently bad; and (further) to his credit, he actually did try and return to the gameplay of the first two titles after post-SF64 installments moved away from it for years. And he has shown past experience in reviving an dormant IP properly (see Retro's DKC Returns).
The above of which is a lot more than I could say for Tanabe, however. He is arguably on record for clearly not understanding, and/or arguably not wanting to understand, what fans wanted with new entries to IPs like Metroid, Chibi-Robo, and Paper Mario; and unlike Miyamoto upon which he may try and rectify his mistakes, he and his associates has on one occasion actually held a franchise's fans to ransom with products they never really asked for in the first place: "if this game doesn't sell, this is it".
Maybe a new Miyamoto-produced F-Zero game could be good if Miyamoto acted more with a "hands-off" approach or as a creative consultant--offer his ideas for the series to other designers directly working on the game, and they could work them into the game without taking away the building blocks of what makes up the gameplay of the series. A Tanabe-produced F-Zero would be an immediate death sentence, though.
Miyamoto's kinda an obvious red flag right now due to how he misfired screwed up Star Fox Zero; but I will cut him a bit of slack and say I don't think his ideas or intentions weren't inherently bad; and (further) to his credit, he actually did try and return to the gameplay of the first two titles after post-SF64 installments moved away from it for years. And he has shown past experience in reviving an dormant IP properly (see Retro's DKC Returns).
The above of which is a lot more than I could say for Tanabe, however. He is arguably on record for clearly not understanding, and/or arguably not wanting to understand, what fans wanted with new entries to IPs like Metroid, Chibi-Robo, and Paper Mario; and unlike Miyamoto upon which he may try and rectify his mistakes, he and his associates has on one occasion actually held a franchise's fans to ransom with products they never really asked for in the first place: "if this game doesn't sell, this is it".
Maybe a new Miyamoto-produced F-Zero game could be good if Miyamoto acted more with a "hands-off" approach or as a creative consultant--offer his ideas for the series to other designers directly working on the game, and they could work them into the game without taking away the building blocks of what makes up the gameplay of the series. A Tanabe-produced F-Zero would be an immediate death sentence, though.
Yeah.
I don't understand this mentality. I'd rather at least there be an attempt,if it sucks too bad, we will move on and the old ones will always exist.
Azure Phoenix
Member
Yes, we do, and Miyamoto can be kept a billion miles away from it given his shitty attitude towards the franchise.
The problem is who on earth would work on it. Nintendo aren't going to do it internally, Sega probably isn't an option any more since they aren't likely to take Nagoshi away from Yakuza and pull together a team to work on a new F-Zero, Namco don't seem to be as close to Nintendo as they once were, Platinum's output has been getting shakier, Retro... well god knows what they are ever working on, and other partners like Next Level are far too risky.
The problem is who on earth would work on it. Nintendo aren't going to do it internally, Sega probably isn't an option any more since they aren't likely to take Nagoshi away from Yakuza and pull together a team to work on a new F-Zero, Namco don't seem to be as close to Nintendo as they once were, Platinum's output has been getting shakier, Retro... well god knows what they are ever working on, and other partners like Next Level are far too risky.
soldierblue
Member
I would take it but I would rather have a new Wipeout game.
Er, Smash Bros.?
Lord of Ostia
Member
I highly doubt the reason they aren't making a new F-Zero is solely because no one has a new idea for the franchise. If futuristic racers were selling well and popular, Nintendo would be all over a new F-Zero....the problem is, the genre is pretty niche nowadays. I think Miyamoto's quote is trying to explain what would have to happen for them to bring back F-Zero in the current market, meaning the market where futuristic racers aren't as popular as they used to be. A new innovation could possibly attract a new audience, and justify the expense of developing a new F-Zero. A new F-Zero wouldn't be cheap either, as the series is known for pushing both performance and visual fidelity.
My point being, if the genre sees a resurgence this generation or next, it's not out of the realm of possibility for Nintendo to make a new one without some new 'innovation'. This is just what they say instead of saying "F-Zero would be expensive and not popular enough to justify the cost of development'.
My point being, if the genre sees a resurgence this generation or next, it's not out of the realm of possibility for Nintendo to make a new one without some new 'innovation'. This is just what they say instead of saying "F-Zero would be expensive and not popular enough to justify the cost of development'.
The Xtortionist
Member
Gameplay is already fine.
The new features could and should be a track creator with easy file sharing, return of death race, online multiplayer and possibly an expanded story mode.
The new features could and should be a track creator with easy file sharing, return of death race, online multiplayer and possibly an expanded story mode.
Miyamoto retiring would not suddenly result in you getting a new Metroid, F-Zero, and Star Fox every year.
Leafhopper
Banned
After Star Fox Zero, and Mario Tennis Ultra Smash.
Not really.
Not really.
Fun fact: Nintendo hasn't developed a F-Zero game internally since X.
The_Endgamer
Member
You'd think after all these years listening to players love F-Zero GX that Nintendo might make a new one... But that's assuming Nintendo actually listen to their customers.
Would be the perfect series to pin network features around (along with Splatoon) for the Switch.
Honestly hope that it's the game Retro Studios has been working on after helping with the Donkey Kong assets in Mario Kart 3DS.
Would be the perfect series to pin network features around (along with Splatoon) for the Switch.
Honestly hope that it's the game Retro Studios has been working on after helping with the Donkey Kong assets in Mario Kart 3DS.
Yeah I'd love to see a new one. Give me more of GX's goofy sci-fi universe too. It's like a cross between Star wars (?) and a comic book super hero world. Give me more of this: The cheese ball lines, the "f-zero" vocal tracks, the crazy pilots, all of it.
Really interesting comment from Miyamoto though, I don't see the anti-grav stuff in MK8 to be a grand innovation, it just lets them do fun stuff with some track design. And mostly visual design at that, looping onto the ceiling isn't a massive change in the gameplay and mostly looks the same to the player. There's the whole "bump into things to go faster! Weird right?!" but it didn't really do a whole lot (still can't hit walls for example). The game is amazing, but I don't see it as an example of innovation that something like F-zero needs for them to move forward at all.
Really interesting comment from Miyamoto though, I don't see the anti-grav stuff in MK8 to be a grand innovation, it just lets them do fun stuff with some track design. And mostly visual design at that, looping onto the ceiling isn't a massive change in the gameplay and mostly looks the same to the player. There's the whole "bump into things to go faster! Weird right?!" but it didn't really do a whole lot (still can't hit walls for example). The game is amazing, but I don't see it as an example of innovation that something like F-zero needs for them to move forward at all.
Astral Dog
Member
I dont
The best Nintendo game ever was developed by SEGA! An amusing thought.
The statement that just read is my opinion (tm) Any posts on the vein of "But SEGA didn't develop ________ though" would be redundant. Thank you for your understanding
I feel like Nintendo should remaster F-Zero GX, make it HD, and add 16 player online multiplayer and call it a day.
F-Zero GX to me was a near perfect incarnation of the franchise and if they just brought that experience part and parcel to the current gen, it would be absolutely fine by me. I don't think a built from the ground up experience would yield the sales Nintendo would expect, but a mid-budget one might.
F-Zero GX to me was a near perfect incarnation of the franchise and if they just brought that experience part and parcel to the current gen, it would be absolutely fine by me. I don't think a built from the ground up experience would yield the sales Nintendo would expect, but a mid-budget one might.
TDLink
Member
This I agree with. There's so much potential in the world and characters they have built with this IP that's just languishing untapped.
Yes, I really-really want a new F-Zero. I don't think it really needs any new gimmicks.
In fact, they missed their opportunity for the perfect "gimmick" by not putting an F-Zero on 3DS where they could've kepts the classic formula and just used stereoscopic 3D as their gimmick.
I know most people would rather see it in HD, but I personally dreamed of seeing it in 3D.
In fact, they missed their opportunity for the perfect "gimmick" by not putting an F-Zero on 3DS where they could've kepts the classic formula and just used stereoscopic 3D as their gimmick.
I know most people would rather see it in HD, but I personally dreamed of seeing it in 3D.
I prefer X to GX and would like to return to that style of gameplay.
GX was far too boost heavy, in some tracks it is almost constant use of boost power. There are only two settings that matter max speed vs max acceleration. In X the slider bar had a lot more variation. The attacking moves were also greatly reduced in GX which took away a great element of gameplay although on most tracks veering off the racing line to attack isn't viable.
The AI was greatly reduced as well. In X there was 2 or 3 rivals in a Cup that would push you every race and accumulate near max points. In GX middling results can win a cup even on Master difficulty
GX was far too boost heavy, in some tracks it is almost constant use of boost power. There are only two settings that matter max speed vs max acceleration. In X the slider bar had a lot more variation. The attacking moves were also greatly reduced in GX which took away a great element of gameplay although on most tracks veering off the racing line to attack isn't viable.
The AI was greatly reduced as well. In X there was 2 or 3 rivals in a Cup that would push you every race and accumulate near max points. In GX middling results can win a cup even on Master difficulty
Okay this is getting kinda dumb. I mean Nintendo does want to continue with the series and asked Criterion in this generation.
F-Zero GX probably had the biggest budget of any F-Zero game. It was content rich and reached new heights for the series. No one bought it.
No one really bought the GBA games either and those could have made their money back and then some much quicker because of the lower budget and large userbase. No one watched the anime either.
I do want them to continue making more, Nintendo also wants to make more and I will be there day 1 when we get a new one. But I can understand why they can't do it frequently and why they feel apprehensive much of the time, and why they're seeking out developers to bring in new ideas and collaborate with them.
It also wouldn't result in the end of Nintendo experimenting, given Miyamoto had nothing to do with the directions of the last two Metroids being different.
Conciliator
Banned
Let me make cars and tracks and play online. Maybe the campaign could have a Gran Turismo element where you take win money and upgrade your car or buy new cars.
Lord of Ostia
Member
This is what I'm talking about. Futuristic racers are dead as a genre, people. Sony closed Studio Liverpool. The racing genre is basically Mario Kart, Forza, GT and other realistic sims, especially on console. There are indie games filling the void like RedOut and Fast Racing NEO, but those games aren't selling gangbusters. Sure, we are getting a remaster collection of Wipeout, and I will buy the shit out of it, but that's basically it. Doesn't seem like there is an audience waiting in the wings to make F-Zero a success.
OrbitalBeard
Member
Excibebots was awesome though.
-Mutsukki-
Member
Miyamoto retiring would not even make Paper Mario return to it's roots either
Lord of Ostia
Member
Yep, the decision to focus on Mario & Luigi as the RPG series and Paper Mario as an adventure title is a company management directive, Miyamoto doesn't make those kind of calls, at least not alone. He probably does keep them from putting tons of original characters into the Paper Mario games, but that's on the entire development team, not just Miyamoto. People want to ascribe all of these decisions to Miyamoto, when in reality he probably doesn't have a hand in most of them. He's just one man people, and Nintendo is a company of many.
mattwhite924
Member
I'd love a new F-Zero, but I'll admit that I'm a bit afraid of what changes they'd try to make. Just give me crazy tracks, insane difficulty, and cleaned up GX graphics and I'll be happy. Throw in some really cheesy character movies and I'll love it forever.
LincolnTunnel
Member
I agree with pretty much everything you're saying, but I'd argue that at least for American viewers, not watching the anime shouldn't be help against them. 4Kids butchered that dub and they only aired the first 15 of 51 episodes. It's a real shame, because it wasn't that bad a show, and the finale had one of the most insane moments in the franchise. I did buy all the games though, even the GBA games. I'm still pissed that they never localized Climax...
Randomizer
Member
Miyamoto is joint second in command of the entire company. When it comes to games, no one has more decision making power. I very much doubt even President Kimishima would object or intervene on his input into games.
But Miyamoto's input has historical been a positive thing overall. Lately not so much, but the problem is he is often providing frivolous suggestions for games that he isn't heavy involved with (DKCR, Paper Mario). He is like George Lucas during the prequels, he is surrounded by yes men and no one is brave enough to stand up and question his bad ideas and decisions.
Star Fox Zero's was being sold as a very late proof of concept for the Wii U Gamepad and it's lack of control options was its biggest issue. I liked the game for what it was, a low budget sequel to Star Fox 64. Would I want an F-Zero of similar effort and quality? Fuck no!
It's also kinda weird to see people keep at the idea that Miyamoto single handedly ruined Paper Mario when Color Splash ended up being a game people liked that still went in the direction Miyamoto "pushed" the series.
While he certainly had a major role, maybe IntSys was much more at fault for Sticker Star's issues than we've been willing to admit
Fuck this mans logic. You dont have to change it. Did DKC really change? TF and returns are a modern version of the original snes games and the same applies for FZero. You tried to change Starfox and Zero happened. Get your shit together.
But lets cut the bullshit, this is PR excuses, no new fzero because no faith in the franchise.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
Yes, I really really want a new F-Zero.
I can't even imagine what they would try to shoehorn into the series with the Switch anyway. It's not a series that needs a gimmick.
It's also probably not a series that would sell anyway. So I'm not getting my hopes up either way.
I can't even imagine what they would try to shoehorn into the series with the Switch anyway. It's not a series that needs a gimmick.
It's also probably not a series that would sell anyway. So I'm not getting my hopes up either way.
Randomizer
Member
Even amongst those who enjoyed Color Splash, the vast majority would have preferred a true sequel to Thousand Year Door.
Considering that I enjoyed Zero a lot (it was even my game of the year), I think this sort of reasoning is downright ridiculous.
And even if I hadn't, I would have rather taken a roll of the dice.
A high speed combat game sounds fun to play but project robot intentionally made itself awkward to play. It's possible that there have been huge changes considering how long it has been AWOL, but guard changed comparatively little. Also of note, guard became a spinoff game and was inoffensive because of it (people angry about zero didn't care about guard becoming a star fox game).
And even if I hadn't, I would have rather taken a roll of the dice.
A high speed combat game sounds fun to play but project robot intentionally made itself awkward to play. It's possible that there have been huge changes considering how long it has been AWOL, but guard changed comparatively little. Also of note, guard became a spinoff game and was inoffensive because of it (people angry about zero didn't care about guard becoming a star fox game).
Outside of trying to justify a hardware gimmick, I'm not sure where the hate comes from and why people think he'd change it. Take out the motion controls of Star Fox Zero and it's essentially Star Fox 64.
3D Mario games change regardless of what people think and despite Mario being a platformer. It's the fresh new ideas and concepts that get implemented and make a 3D Mario game standout from any other, including other 3D Mario games.
Same for the first three F-Zero games. The first F-Zero was revolutionary and showed off what mode-7 could do as a launch titles, with a faux-3D effect giving the player the feeling of moving around in a 3D space. As well as jumps on some tracks giving you a feel there is verticality to it.
F-Zero X goes further with this but adds in new fresh ideas like a lot of characters on screen, tubes, half pipes, more road hazzards, bumps, jumps. Going all out with what 3D could provide for a futuristic racing game.
F-Zero GX while it does reel some of this back, it further refines other aspects of the game, they also added a story mode, connectivity with the arcades, and just lots of fresh new ideas from Amusement Vision's team and where to take the series further.
The next F-Zero is unknown, but even if Miyamoto where on it, the Switch really won't have hardware gimmicks that need justifying. Plus Nintendo seems to be looking for 3rd parties and collaborate with them like they did with Amusement Vision for more fresh ideas on where to take the series next.
3D Mario games change regardless of what people think and despite Mario being a platformer. It's the fresh new ideas and concepts that get implemented and make a 3D Mario game standout from any other, including other 3D Mario games.
Same for the first three F-Zero games. The first F-Zero was revolutionary and showed off what mode-7 could do as a launch titles, with a faux-3D effect giving the player the feeling of moving around in a 3D space. As well as jumps on some tracks giving you a feel there is verticality to it.
F-Zero X goes further with this but adds in new fresh ideas like a lot of characters on screen, tubes, half pipes, more road hazzards, bumps, jumps. Going all out with what 3D could provide for a futuristic racing game.
F-Zero GX while it does reel some of this back, it further refines other aspects of the game, they also added a story mode, connectivity with the arcades, and just lots of fresh new ideas from Amusement Vision's team and where to take the series further.
The next F-Zero is unknown, but even if Miyamoto where on it, the Switch really won't have hardware gimmicks that need justifying. Plus Nintendo seems to be looking for 3rd parties and collaborate with them like they did with Amusement Vision for more fresh ideas on where to take the series next.
Seems like he underestimates what an online mode can do for a good game. Word of mouth and online play work wonders.
See: Rocket League
That's not a mistake Nintendo is foreign to making.
TDLink
Member
If you take out the motion controls it's...still worse Star Fox 64. Much bigger focus on all range mode rather than on rails levels compared to 64. No real multiplayer mode. Less intense levels in general to accommodate the motion controls. It doesn't even have a different story to help it stand out more.
Yeah, good points. It did need less all-range mode stuff.
It's a retelling of 64, and that is something the series seems to be stuck on while others franchises have moved on to do something else in their respective series. Even Captain Falcon raced death and some Gods or spirits for whatever reason just because a twist in the story made it so.
Lord of Ostia
Member
With your description of Miyamoto being like George Lucas...that's basically tales from your ass at this point, it's all speculation. We know that George Lucas was like that from people who worked on the films talking about his behavior and their reaction to it. As far as Miyamoto and Nintendo are concerned, there is no such evidence from employees at the company. I understand that Nintendo is tight-lipped and we'd probably never hear about it if it were true, but that doesn't mean it is true. I'm not trying to defend Miyamoto, I'm simply saying that all we know is that Miyamoto occasionally makes suggestions, the developers think his suggestions are great and implement them, and we get the results we've gotten. It doesn't do us any good to try and assume blame to one specific person, because the fact is Nintendo seems unified in the direction they've taken these series. All we can do is be critical of their decisions and design choices, and baseless speculation about who did what it said what doesn't really help with that at all.
Randomizer
Member
Miyamoto is full of shit, sales are the only reason F-Zero isn't being made. If they can create the best most innovate Mario Kart with it's 8th entry, they can easily create a new F-Zero of similar quality.
Lord of Ostia
Member
Yes and no. I mean, I think when he says "we can't innovate so we aren't making a new entry" he means that "sales aren't good enough to justify a new entry alone, so the only way a new game will come despite low sales is if we can innovate to reach a new audience". If they did have a great new idea to innovate F-Zero and reach more people than past titles, I think they would do it. They don't though, and past sales don't justify a new entry. It's not that complicated.