Support NeoGAF

[Veelk]

And at several points they have characters more or less say a woman makes them better men.

Yeah, that is one of the worst parts of toxic masculinity and DOES NOT make a good case as a refutation.

The idea that men can't act civilized, compassionate, loving, rational and affectionate unless it's to a woman/around a woman is the the essential problem of the movie in terms of a feminist reading.

It's even what resolves the central plot point of the film. A woman comes in to communicate Superman's feelings for him, so Batman can go save another woman. And earlier, the dream sequence implies that the only think that keeps Superman bound to his principles is lois staying alive, because if she's not around, hey why not be a fascistic murderous monster? Like, it's not established how she dies, and without context of what about her dying makes Superman turn evil, (as opposed to the Justice League alternate universe episode where there's more to superman turning bad than "Lois dies", even if that's a crux of it) it's just implied that the fact that he doesn't have a woman around to keep him moral, a 'better man', he just naturally becomes a monster, since apparently he doesn't hold any morals of his own without her. Combine this with the fact that whenever he seeks moral guidance from either his mom or Lois on what he should do, you have him entirely dependent on women for how to act.

It's an idea that makes women responsible for keeping the world moral while not having much in the way of power and agency to make that change, so their morals and beliefs can only be carried through men. No, men have a responsibility to look after their own moral compass.

I know that none of this is what BvS intends to communicate, but...well, that's toxic masculinity for you. People complain that Wonder Woman is tacked onto this movie, but I think it's a blessing in disguise. Because she's written in so clearly late, she stays out of the drama of Batman's and Superman's bullshit and is just there to kick ass and not act as a moral figure towards them. Other than the SW prequels, she's probably the clearest example of how lack of characterizations is better than bad characterization.

 

[Already Torn]

I refuse to believe that the man who directed 300 and Sucker Punch has issues with toxic masculinity.

 

[caliph95]

I refuse to believe that the man who directed 300 and Sucker Punch has issues with toxic masculinity.

I mean haven't you heard Sucker punch is a feminist masterpiece.

Spoiler

At least according to snyder, but i could be misremembering.

 

[IconGrist]

It's even what resolves the central plot point of the film.

The plot point of Superman's heat vision?

Okay, first of all, I don't see whats wrong with using Superman's heat vision intensity when it is literally the central plotpoint of the entire movie.

 

[Veelk]

The plot point of Superman's heat vision?

Well, you got me, I miswrote that. Really, the heat vision is a catalyst to one of the central issues of the plot, rather. That's what I meant, but wrote otherwise. It happens. I usually go back and edit posts to correct stuff like that, but didn't that one for one reason or another.

But I think we can call the Batman - Superman fight, the thing in all the advertisements and the title and shit soundly to be the central plot point of the whole film.

 

[Just_myles]

Debatable

The only time I saw Ralph Dibny as a detective was in identity crisis or one of those after IC events.

 

[broncobuster]

Yeah, that is one of the worst parts of toxic masculinity and DOES NOT make a good case as a refutation.

The idea that men can't act civilized, compassionate, loving, rational and affectionate unless it's to a woman/around a woman is the problem here.

It's even what resolves the central plot point of the film. A woman comes in to communicate Superman's feelings for him, so Batman can go save another woman. And earlier, the dream sequence implies that the only think that keeps Superman bound to his principles is lois staying alive, because it's she's not around, hey why not be a fascistic murderous monster? Like, it's not established how she dies, and without context of what about her dying makes Superman turn evil, it's just implied that the fact that he doesn't have a woman around to keep him moral, a 'better man', he just naturally becomes a monster, since apparently he doesn't hold any morals of his own without her. Combine this with the fact that whenever he seeks moral guidance from either his mom or Lois on what he should do, you have him entirely dependent on women for how to act.

It's an idea that makes women responsible for keeping the world moral while not having much in the way of power and agency to make that change, so their morals and beliefs can only be carried through men. No, men have a responsibility to look after their own moral compass.

I know that none of this is what BvS intends to communicate, but...well, that's toxic masculinity for you. People complain that Wonder Woman is tacked onto this movie, but I think it's a blessing in disguise. Because she's written in so clearly late, she stays out of the drama of Batman's and Superman's bullshit and is just there to kick ass and not act as a moral figure towards them. Other than the SW prequels, she's probably the clearest example of how lack of characterizations is better than bad characterization.

Part of me knew I needed to phrase it better to avoid this tangent, but it's not fun to type out a lot on a phone. Didn't think the point of Wonder Woman saving Batman would be ignored and that was the more relevant point.

Anyway, no, Superman he doesn't only seek out guidance from only his mom or Lois. He talks to Perry when applicable, although I wish he talked with Swanwick. Actually, I don't think he really seek out guidance from Lois at all; he ends up trying to comfort her more often than not. The whole knightmare is dumb. Not much to address, besides saying it's implied Batman kills Lois. The nature of the scene is up in the air but I've never been a fan of the Injustice/Superman gone evil stories. When I say they "say" women make them better men, I literally mean say. Other than ghost dad it isn't true of the events of the movie. But I get what you're getting it. To use another example of what I meant, it's when Wonder Woman calls Batman a selfish little boy. Or (and I feel this is another one of those lines that'd get twisted to be about conforming to gender roles) that Bruce asks the kids where their mothers are. Or I can point to Senator Finch's character. It's that they generally attribute positive qualities to women in the movie, which is intentional but seemingly not very successful for most in execution.

Debatable

You're one of those people who like Elongated Man more than Eel, aren't you.

 

[Veelk]

Part of me knew I needed to phrase it better to avoid this tangent, but it's not fun to type out a lot on a phone. Didn't think the point of Wonder Woman saving Batman would be ignored and that was the more relevant point.

Anyway, no, Superman he doesn't only seek out guidance from only his mom or Lois. He talks to Perry when applicable, although I wish he talked with Swanwick. Actually, I don't think he really seek out guidance from Lois at all; he ends up trying to comfort her more often than not. The whole knightmare is dumb. Not much to address, besides saying it's implied Batman kills Lois. The nature of the scene is up in the air but I've never been a fan of the Injustice/Superman gone evil stories. When I say they "say" women make them better men, I literally mean say. Other than ghost dad it isn't true of the events of the movie. But I get what you're getting it. To use another example of what I meant, it's when Wonder Woman calls Batman a selfish little boy. Or (and I feel this is another one of those lines that'd get twisted to be about conforming to gender roles) that Bruce asks the kids where their mothers are. Or I can point to Senator Finch's character. It's that they generally attribute positive qualities to women in the movie, which is intentional but seemingly not very successful for most in execution.

The problem with the argument is that your kinda conflating "Toxic Masculinity" with "Hatred of Women". Like, if the film is rife with hyper masculinity, then it must mean it thinks little of women. It's not quite true. Toxic Masculinity is more like a self esteem issue/emotional issue. It's more stuff like "Men shouldn't cry" or "Men can't express emotions other than anger". That's unfortunately true of this movie. I unless I'm misremembering, I can't think of a scene of either Batman or Superman expressing a positive emotion unless it's with a woman. It's either stoicism or anger. Batman argues about Superman with Alfred until he angrily points out how 'superman is the problem', and Superman's only scene where he seems to be happy is when he has sex with Lois, or the only time he expresses vulnerability is when he's with lois or his mother (I don't remember the scene he has with Perry, but even listening to the advice of Perry isn't the same thing as making himself emotionally vulnerable to him). Ghost Dad, I'll give you, but is it really vulnerability when he's talking to a hallucination? Hell, even at his most desperate, the way he communicates to Batman that they need to stop fighting is a command and an accusation. "Save Martha!...You're letting him kill Martha!"

I can get what your saying. BvS throws some bones by having women possess some positive attributes. But it's like saying that Lord of the Rings isn't a male dominated story just because it has 1 woman who decides to go out and accomplish a great deed despite the orders of men to tell her to tend to the house. Sure, it's nice, but the vast majority of the story enforces the opposite, including the female senator who, for all her vigor, ends up being a pawn to advance Lex's schemes and forgotten about entirely once she's dead. Wonder woman is the only female character I see who is truly exempt for this, and that's only because she is exempt from almost everything in the movie.

 

[Monocle]

They'll just crank the Wonder Woman theme up to 11 and hope for the best.

Hmmm maybe that electric cello might not mesh so well with the WW1 era set pieces.

I really loathe that theme. Trashy and grating. Sounds like something you'd hear in a strip club.

 

[IconGrist]

The problem with the argument is that your kinda conflating "Toxic Masculinity" with "Hatred of Women". Like, if the film is rife with hyper masculinity, then it must mean it thinks little of women. It's not quite true. Toxic Masculinity is more like a self esteem issue/emotional issue. It's more stuff like "Men shouldn't cry" or "Men can't express emotions other than anger". That's unfortunately true of this movie. I unless I'm misremembering, I can't think of a scene of either Batman or Superman expressing a positive emotion unless it's with a woman. It's either stoicism or anger. Batman argues about Superman with Alfred until he angrily points out how 'superman is the problem', and Superman's only scene where he seems to be happy is when he has sex with Lois, or the only time he expresses vulnerability is when he's with lois or his mother (I don't remember the scene he has with Perry, but even listening to the advice of Perry isn't the same thing as making himself emotionally vulnerable to him). Ghost Dad, I'll give you, but is it really vulnerability when he's talking to a hallucination? Hell, even at his most desperate, the way he communicates to Batman that they need to stop fighting is a command and an accusation. "Save Martha!...You're letting him kill Martha!"

I can get what your saying. BvS throws some bones by having women possess some positive attributes. But it's like saying that Lord of the Rings isn't a male dominated story just because it has 1 woman who decides to go out and accomplish a great deed despite the orders of men to tell her to tend to the house. Sure, it's nice, but the vast majority of the story enforces the opposite.

For the record, I'm not disagreeing with you (crazy, right?), but I did want to point out that Superman's active supporting characters are just Lois and his mom as of now. So it's sort of a give in that his only positive emotional interactions would be with women. With Batman, considering the narrative at play, it wouldn't make a ton of sense for him to be having positive emotional interactions with anyone male or female when he's being depicted as morally bankrupt. I'd argue that Bruce's first positive interaction, with Diana at the funeral, is because of Superman rather than anything to do with Diana.

I know that sounds like I'm disagreeing with you but what I mean about not disagreeing is that I think Snyder has a history of not being careful about it.

 

[Veelk]

I really loathe that theme. Trashy and grating. Sounds like something you'd hear in a strip club.

I always try to imagine what kind of information the music is trying to communicate about a character. Well, I say imagine, but truth is, you don't need to think about it more often than not, you just feel it on some instinctive level.

John William's Superman theme communicates a kind of uplifting theme. Like, just the first few seconds the blaring goes from slow and low, and rises to loud and fast and more complex. It communicates greatness, joy, wonder, etc.

Zimmer's Batman theme feels kind of gritty, exciting exciting but desperate in a way, kind of epic, but grounded. It always gives me the feeling of "A Man on a Mission", like Batman is someone who has a difficult but noble undertaking, which rises and falls as it goes on, instead of just rising like Superman's.

I'm not sure what Wonder Woman's theme is supposed to tell me. It conveys intensity of a fight, but that's it. I felt it worked for Batman v Superman, because that's all her character is that movie, just someone who steps in to up the awesome (such as it is) by having yet another badass hero to fight. Someone said that her theme works BvS, but feels out of place in her own trailers, and I agree and think it's for this reason.

For the record, I'm not disagreeing with you (crazy, right?), but I did want to point out that Superman's active supporting characters are just Lois and his mom as of now. So it's sort of a give in that his only positive emotional interactions would be with women. With Batman, considering the narrative at play, it wouldn't make a ton of sense for him to be having positive emotional interactions with anyone male or female when he's being depicted as morally bankrupt. I'd argue that Bruce's first positive interaction, with Diana at the funeral, is because of Superman rather than anything to do with Diana.

I know that sounds like I'm disagreeing with you but what I mean about not disagreeing is that I think Snyder has a history of not being careful about it.

Well,...positive feels like it's putting too much a spin on it. Bruce is bitching about his epic fuck up while Diana is just kind of standing there wondering why she's listening to this guy. You can call it a redemptive moment or him admitting he's wrong, which isn't bad per se, but I personally have little sympathy for those who make their apologies only after everything has gone to irreparable shit. (heh, I appreciate that your not disagreeing with me, but it seems I'm predestined to atleast resist everything you say. I wonder what would happen if you said the sky was blue).

But you're right that it's not like Snyder is intentionally depicting this stuff. I mean, who is? There's no movie that is flat out going to say "Women are lesser than men" or anything like that flat out. The problem with these things is that they're never out and on the surface or intentional. They're just byproducts of underlying cultural social problems that have been going on for literally the entire time that humanity has existed. It's all so pervasive that you literally have to actively be resisting it, or else you just get swept up in the current without even realizing it. And to resist it, you have to acknowledge it's been affecting you before you acknowledged it was a problem, which people hate doing.

So yeah, you're right, it's mostly Snyder either not knowing or not being careful enough to avoid this theme he didn't intend. Problem is, it's still there, intended or not.

 

[Litan]

I don't know if it's so much not thinking things through as much as the idea that wonder woman delivering the final blow is just not something that could concievably happen in the minds of the writers.

I mean, this movie is kind of...overwhelmingly masculine. It's something I've kinda struggled to articulate, and this article does a good job of putting it on paper about how it's toxic masculinity that ruins the film and everything (and there are other articles if you do a google search), but even going beyond that, stuff like Cross fit and the hyper aggression of the characters and the inability to talk things and how the suits emphasize the male physique more than any marvel movie or past DC movies and a lot of the language ("You're not a man" "He made me half a man") and so on just kind of makes it feel like this is a film that's just...for men, or atleast ones with an overattachment to their sense of masculinity.

As such, the very idea of a woman being the one to step in and fix things, even if it's the logical option, feels like its something the audience, or atleast the intended audience, would consider an insult, even emasculating. It's something that doesn't happen because it didn't occur to the writer, but more like it's something that just isn't in the writers creative vision to happen.

I agree with you on BvS having a lot of toxic masculinity but I can't agree with people that think WW should have been the one to kill Doomsday. The whole heroic self-sacrifice thing was lame because, like the video said, it seems like the end of a character arc that wasn't well built up to, but better that than a character who'd only been in the movie a few minutes delivering the final blow.

 

[Veelk]

I agree with you on BvS having a lot of toxic masculinity but I can't agree with people that think WW should have been the one to kill Doomsday. The whole heroic self-sacrifice thing was lame because, like the video said, it seems like the end of a character arc that wasn't well built up to, but better that than a character who'd only been in the movie a few minutes delivering the final blow.

Well, I'm not saying that Wonder Woman SHOULD have had the final blow. The problem is that the way the narrative is constructed, the only thing that makes sense is for Wonder Woman to have the final blow to Darkseid, just from a tactical sense.

But I agree that narratively, it'd be weird for Wonder Woman to be the end savior of a film called Batman v Superman. That shouldn't be the case, just because, above all else, this is Batman and Superman's story. They are owed it's climax. But when the film makes so many narrative blunders as it does, why would I credit them not giving it to wonder women as narrative sensibilities as opposed to the hypermasculine vision that the film has. It just seems like the likelier explanation to me.

So the real fix is to change the story around so that it makes tactical sense for the 3 of them to work together and deliver the final blow. Make it so that Doomsday can go down to something other than the thing that kills Superman, for example. No reason he can't just be defeated by enough physical force. Or else have Kryptonite make him vulnerable, but not the thing that kills him. There are a lot of solutions.

 

[shingi70]

I mean dude was half a man, or more to the point 1/3 a man.

Also not sure how Bruce telling Clark he was never a man is toxic, earlier parts of the film show that when he says man he means human. It's always one of the bigger sticking point of the two which is ironic considering Clark is the more human of the two.

 

[Veelk]

I mean dude was half a man, or more to the point 1/3 a man.

Also not sure how Bruce telling Clark he was never a man is toxic, earlier parts of the film show that when he says man he means human. It's always one of the bigger sticking point of the two which is ironic considering Clark is the more human of the two.

On it's own, it's not a big deal at all, but in the context of the rest of the films hypermasculinity, it's adds to the pile.

But I'm personally hardwired to regard any unironic usage of "being a man" with derision and scorn. It's a phrase literally designed to idealize masculinity, a shorthand for how to be a proper person exclusively for the male gender. You can try to recontexualize it to mean "human being" as opposed to "alien", but you can't take the historical stink off of it.

Not only that, but that wheelchair dude example in particular is hairy because it throws yet another monkey wrench in the pile. Ableism. That if you are crippled or disabled in some way, you aren't a complete person. It's already a thing that actual disabled people struggle with, and BvS plays into that vulnerability without disputing it at all. There is no address made to the cripple's self image, he's just used and then forgotten about.

I feel like this stuff is just kind of what makes BvS such an unpalpable movie to anyone who actually cares about how issues are portrayed. Even if the film wasn't a narrative mess, I probably wouldn't like it because of what it's about. Garlander outlined the issue here pretty well:

What upsets me more than anything about the dark, cynical, "realistic" portrayal of a world that hates and fears Superman in the DCEU is that... that's already reality. We already fear those different than us. We're already drowning in xenophobia and hateful racism that we wish we could move beyond and scrub clean. We see it day in and day out. For many of us, we LIVE that bigotry and hatred every day of our lives. And to see Superman on film not transcend that, but to instead be brought down and hobbled by it, is frustrating. This is compounded by the ugly issue that, according to these films, much of it is JUSTIFIED. The world WOULD be better off if Superman had never arrived. The world WOULD be safer if Superman didn't exist. In two films, his existence has cost thousands their lives and endangered millions. In this respect, the message of fearing him and despising him is given merit.

... In a society that seeks to do the same to Muslims, to minorities, to the LGBT communities, and to any of the "others", that sickens me.

I'm not saying that all superhero films need to be reaching to the stars and only optimism and joy and puppies and dreams and shit.

But it's just so cynical to see such the common problems we live in today used, justified, or even just undisputed. The toxic masculine vibe, the random pointless suffering of typical world sufferers, the justified xenophobia, it's just all rolled up so that even if, narratively speaking, BvS had it's head on straight, I don't see much to like about it.

 

[Bleepey]

Wonder Woman was holding Doomsday with her lasso. I guess he could've given her the spear and tried holding Doomsday, but you'd reach the same conclusion.

I swear BVS might be too smart for some people or maybe people bitch about movies they weren't paying attention to. Oh and to answer the question why did Lois come back for the spear. What was she supposed to do, take it home with her so her bf can be less super? Maybe give it to the govt, "hey incase you wanna harm my bf, take this for safe keeping". As for how she deduced it was Kryptonian, the Kryptonian ship was drawing a lot of power, out comes this beast from the Kryptonian ship, it flies like a Kryptonian, oh and it shoots eye beans like a certain Kryptonian. Jesus people pay attention to movies you bitch about or just admit it's too smart for you. RDJ claimed the Dark Knight was too smart for him and there was nothing wrong with that.

Also Superman not only saw the nuke coming he held doomsday in a chokehold as the damn nuke came but thanks for playing.

https://youtu.be/DRCdvnz-wss

1 min from the end

 

[Skunkers]

It's even what resolves the central plot point of the film. A woman comes in to communicate Superman's feelings for him, so Batman can go save another woman. And earlier, the dream sequence implies that the only think that keeps Superman bound to his principles is lois staying alive, because if she's not around, hey why not be a fascistic murderous monster? Like, it's not established how she dies, and without context of what about her dying makes Superman turn evil, (as opposed to the Justice League alternate universe episode where there's more to superman turning bad than "Lois dies", even if that's a crux of it) it's just implied that the fact that he doesn't have a woman around to keep him moral, a 'better man', he just naturally becomes a monster, since apparently he doesn't hold any morals of his own without her.

I don't get this line of thinking. It's not that Lois is the only thing keeping Superman from being evil. Bruce just has a dream that losing Lois makes him evil, but it has no basis in reality. I don't think we can judge Superman's actual character in the film based on another charater's misconception; a paranoid narcissistic nightmare. If anything it's just Batman's fear that "there's a 1% chance" something like that could set an unstoppable god off. It says more about Batman. Their whole beef in the film is that Bruce just saw the destruction in MoS and figures he needs to prevent it from potentially happening again. It's like if some dude was in a hurry and bumped into you in high school without saying sorry and you just looked at him from afar and hated his guts only to actually talk to him one day and become friends. While perhaps hamfisted, the Martha scene was meant to convey that Batman had been only viewing Superman as a demigod or threat; realizing he was just a person with a mother humanized him in Bruce's eyes.

 

[Glass Rebel]

I swear BVS might be too smart for some people or maybe people bitch about movies they weren't paying attention to. Oh and to answer the question why did Lois come back for the spear. What was she supposed to do, take it home with her so her bf can be less super? Maybe give it to the govt, "hey incase you wanna harm my bf, take this for safe keeping". As for how she deduced it was Kryptonian, the Kryptonian ship was drawing a lot of power, out comes this beast from the Kryptonian ship, it flies like a Kryptonian, oh and it shoots eye beans like a certain Kryptonian. Jesus people pay attention to movies you bitch about or just admit it's too smart for you. RDJ claimed the Dark Knight was too smart for him and there was nothing wrong with that.

Also Superman not only saw the nuke coming he held doomsday in a chokehold as the damn nuke came but thanks for playing.

https://youtu.be/DRCdvnz-wss

1 min from the end

😂😂😂😂😂

 

[Bleepey]

😂😂😂😂😂

You laugh but look at the complaints. Batman was miles away from Doomsday, Wonder Woman was barely holding Doomsday in place, and I am not sure if super aim is part of Superman's powerset. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xog-4gL13_A

Or how you literally have to explain every potential course of action regarding Lois throwing and returning for the spear to explain how that's the best course of action.

 

[NEO0MJ]

The only time I saw Ralph Dibny as a detective was in identity crisis or one of those after IC events.

Yeah, he played the detective in 52. the post infinite crisis series that dealt with the gap between IC and One Year Later when the Trinity went missing.

 

[Gordon Shumway]

I swear BVS might be too smart for some people or maybe people bitch about movies they weren't paying attention to.

Always with this shit..

 

[BassForever]

I swear BVS might be too smart for some people

 

[mcrommert]

I swear BVS might be too smart for some people or maybe people bitch about movies they weren't paying attention to. Oh and to answer the question why did Lois come back for the spear. What was she supposed to do, take it home with her so her bf can be less super? Maybe give it to the govt, "hey incase you wanna harm my bf, take this for safe keeping". As for how she deduced it was Kryptonian, the Kryptonian ship was drawing a lot of power, out comes this beast from the Kryptonian ship, it flies like a Kryptonian, oh and it shoots eye beans like a certain Kryptonian. Jesus people pay attention to movies you bitch about or just admit it's too smart for you. RDJ claimed the Dark Knight was too smart for him and there was nothing wrong with that.

Also Superman not only saw the nuke coming he held doomsday in a chokehold as the damn nuke came but thanks for playing.

https://youtu.be/DRCdvnz-wss

1 min from the end

10/10 flawless

 

[Ahasverus]

I can understand criticism to the email scene and the nightmare, but the rest of the plot was rock solid in the UC if you pay attention. So yeah, I'll blame dumb people for the dumbing down of the DCEU that started with SS. Let me pray for Wonder Woman.

Btw, Jenkins' way of dealing with this controversy on twitter was kind of elegant.

 

[Bleepey]

I don't get how people can look at the criticism shown on this very page and then mock me. Because honestly, the only thing you can conclude is that people weren't paying attention, which honestly I can respect that if they could at least concede that. Hell even say the film was so boring they didn't notice Wonder Woman holding Doomsday with that bright yellow lasso with electricity shooting all over the place, or they didn't notice Superman looking at the nuke coming and him putting Doomsday in a chokehold, or even in another thread where someone needed a step by step breakdown showing why the thugs couldn't come at Batman all at once immediately and when they did it try it didn't turn out well for them.

I am countering subjective opinion with objective truth because whilst I see many gifs and memes laughing at my post I see very little in the way of rebuttals about the content of them. I guess because it's easier to cosign stupid arguments than present logical arguments.

 

[Veelk]

It's the Stans, Bleepey! The Marvel Stans! They are working in disguise! They're everywhere!

 

[Litan]

I don't get how people can look at the criticism shown on this very page and then mock me. Because honestly, the only thing you can conclude is that people weren't paying attention, which honestly I can respect that if they could at least concede that. Hell even say the film was so boring they didn't notice Wonder Woman holding Doomsday with that bright yellow lasso with electricity shooting all over the place, or they didn't notice Superman looking at the nuke coming and him putting Doomsday in a chokehold, or even in another thread where someone needed a step by step breakdown showing why the thugs couldn't come at Batman all at once immediately and when they did it try it didn't turn out well for them.

I am countering subjective opinion with objective truth because whilst I see many gifs and memes laughing at my post I see very little in the way of rebuttals about the content of them. I guess because it's easier to cosign stupid arguments than present logical arguments.

Because arguing with you is a waste of time. It goes nowhere.
You've been doing this shit for months. MONTHS!

 

[LionPride]

Always with this shit..

This is why I started going in the DCEU thread and asking questions...

 

[Gordon Shumway]

I don't get how people can look at the criticism shown on this very page and then mock me. Because honestly, the only thing you can conclude is that people weren't paying attention, which honestly I can respect that if they could at least concede that.

Mock you? You're calling people stupid. You're not even the only one that does this crap when discussing the deepness that is BvS..it's annoying as all hell. People say Marvel movies forgettable. Plenty mess up details. Miss things right in front of their faces. I don't see folks being called stupid for that.

Why do you insist on that tired ass nonsense? It's insulting people..over funny book movies..maybe let's not take this shit so seriously. Have some FUN..😉

 

[neorej]

I don't get how people can look at the criticism shown on this very page and then mock me. Because honestly, the only thing you can conclude is that people weren't paying attention, which honestly I can respect that if they could at least concede that. Hell even say the film was so boring they didn't notice Wonder Woman holding Doomsday with that bright yellow lasso with electricity shooting all over the place, or they didn't notice Superman looking at the nuke coming and him putting Doomsday in a chokehold, or even in another thread where someone needed a step by step breakdown showing why the thugs couldn't come at Batman all at once immediately and when they did it try it didn't turn out well for them.

I am countering subjective opinion with objective truth because whilst I see many gifs and memes laughing at my post I see very little in the way of rebuttals about the content of them. I guess because it's easier to cosign stupid arguments than present logical arguments.

This shit is golden. Seriously. Do you do weddings? I'm looking for a comedian.

 

[Kinyou]

I'm not sure what Wonder Woman's theme is supposed to tell me. It conveys intensity of a fight, but that's it. I felt it worked for Batman v Superman, because that's all her character is that movie, just someone who steps in to up the awesome (such as it is) by having yet another badass hero to fight. Someone said that her theme works BvS, but feels out of place in her own trailers, and I agree and think it's for this reason.

I think the trailers did a really poor job of using the theme and literally just throw it in there as an afterthought. This music fits to wonder woman stepping through explosions or cutting a monster in two, whatever, but to just put it behind the logo doesn't work at all.

Personally I really like the theme since the sound is just so different from every other superhero movie and the cello instantly evokes a resemblance to warrior chant in my mind, which seems pretty fitting.

I agree though that the theme from BvS doesn't feel really complete, so I hope there's some rework for the actual movie that adds something beyond "warrior"

 

[LionPride]

Mock you? You're calling people stupid. You're not even the only one that does this crap when discussing the deepness that is BvS..it's annoying as all hell. People say Marvel movies forgettable. Plenty mess up details. Miss things right in front of their faces. I don't see folks being called stupid for that.

Why do you insist on that tired ass nonsense? It's insulting people..over funny book movies..maybe let's not take this shit so seriously. Have some FUN..😉

Why you gotta bring up fun man

It's the Stans, Bleepey! The Marvel Stans! They are working in disguise! They're everywhere!

It's a C-O-N-spiracy!

 

[Dash_Riprock]

Am I too late for Bleepey's breakdown?

 

[Gordon Shumway]

Why you gotta bring up fun man

lol..Couldn't help myself.

 

[neorej]

Mock you? You're calling people stupid. You're not even the only one that does this crap when discussing the deepness that is BvS..it's annoying as all hell. People say Marvel movies forgettable. Plenty mess up details. Miss things right in front of their faces. I don't see folks being called stupid for that.

Why do you insist on that tired ass nonsense? It's insulting people..over funny book movies..maybe let's not take this shit so seriously. Have some FUN..😉

Seriously, call people dumb for not remembering a quick glance from Superman, while ignoring the entire context of a gif he's responding to. And not admitting it.

 

[Veelk]

I think the trailers did a really poor job of using the theme and literally just throw it in there as an afterthought. This music fits to wonder woman stepping through explosions or cutting a monster in two, whatever, but to just put it behind the logo doesn't work at all.

Personally I really like the theme since the sound is just so different from every other superhero movie and the cello instantly evokes a resemblance to warrior chant in my mind, which seems pretty fitting.

I agree though that the theme from BvS doesn't feel really complete, so I hope there's some rework for the actual movie that adds something beyond "warrior"

Good points. Is Zimmer the one doing the soundtrack of wonder woman?

 

[Dreez]

Edit: sorry wrong thread... >_<

 

[Bleepey]

If arguing with me goes nowhere is because the same tired arguments are repeated despite the fact explanations have been provided. I came with receipts and time stamps with everything i said..Again, other people, not so much. Saying people might be too stupid might be a bit harsh but i seriously think some people have to be spoonfed shit based on the criticisms leveled at the film on this very page. If i had to be extra condescending explaining how Lois deduced Doomsday was Kryptonian in origin it's cos it's warranted. There was even one dude a while back who said it was a plothole that Lois worked out that kryptonite harmed Superman. Those people... I don't know what to say.

This shit is golden. Seriously. Do you do weddings? I'm looking for a comedian.

Sure. I am only as funny as my source material, care to be the punchline of all my jokes?

 

[LionPride]

Am I too late for Bleepey's breakdown?

You are ten months too late

 

[Veelk]

"I don't understand why people have to attack me so much just because I'm so much better at film criticism than them and also they're idiots. I mean, it's okay to be a douchebag when you're right, right? So why can't we all just admit I'm right? Things would be way less hostile that way."

 

[Schlorgan]

If arguing with me goes nowhere is because the same tired arguments are repeated despite the fact explanations have been provided. I came with receipts and time stamps with everything i said..Again, other people, not so much. Saying people might be too stupid might be a bit harsh but i seriously think some people have to be spoonfed shit based on the criticisms leveled at the film on this very page. If i had to be extra condescending explaining how Lois deduced Doomsday was Kryptonian in origin it's cos it's warranted. There was even one dude a while back who said it was a plothole that Lois worked out that kryptonite harmed Superman. Those people... I don't know what to say.

If you're talking about me, I brought up that Lois suddenly realizing that they need the spear, even though she's on the other side of the city from where the battle was happening. How did she know? Did she read the script?

 

[Ninjimbo]

"I don't understand why people have to attack me so much just because I'm so much better at film criticism than them and also they're idiots. I mean, it's okay to be a douchebag when you're right, right? So why can't we all just admit I'm right? Things would be way less hostile that way."

This post is certainly helping discourse!

 

[Bleepey]

If you're talking about me, I brought up that Lois suddenly realizing that they need the spear, even though she's on the other side of the city from where the battle was happening. How did she know? Did she read the script?

It wasn't you and i already provided explanations as to how she knew.

 

[LionPride]

"I don't understand why people have to attack me so much just because I'm so much better at film criticism than them and also they're idiots. I mean, it's okay to be a douchebag when you're right, right? So why can't we all just admit I'm right? Things would be way less hostile that way."

Like, I honestly used to hate it when you would post because you would post these long ass posts to get to a short point, but at least you weren't an asshole.

Bleepy tho...

 

[Gordon Shumway]

This post is certainly helping discourse!

Maybe let's not highlight it then, no?

 

[Kinyou]

Good points. Is Zimmer the one doing the soundtrack of wonder woman?

Apparently it's Rubert Gregson Williams. Should be interesting if he uses the theme as anchorpoint or does his own thing.

 

[Schlorgan]

It wasn't you and i already provided explanations as to how she knew.

She dumps it in a well, then when they mention in the battle that they need it, suddenly she goes back for it and almost drowns trying to get it back. You missed the part where she suddenly realizes she needs to go back for it in your explanation.

 

[LionPride]

This post is certainly helping discourse!

You gonna do something to help or you just gonna point it out and do nothing?

Imma take a guess it's the second one

 

[Veelk]

Like, I honestly used to hate it when you would post because you would post these long ass posts to get to a short point, but at least you weren't an asshole.

Debatably, but I learned long ago that you are only ever supposed to attack the argument, not the person making it. Attack it as harshly as you please, but make sure it's the argument.

Apparently it's Rubert Gregson Williams. Should be interesting if he uses the theme as anchorpoint or does his own thing.

Probably both. Which I think is for the best. I've been liking Zimmer's superhero work less and less over the years. Hope he does a great job.

 

[Ninjimbo]

You gonna do something to help or you just gonna point it out and do nothing?

Imma take a guess it's the second one

The second one. I've written enough. Look at my post history if you want to see all the stuff I wrote about how I think BvS is the best superhero movie since Watchmen and probably the best ever made.