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[drspeedy]

Since the last thread about frightening disinformation from infowars got locked pretty quickly, let's open up a *civil* discussion about the overwhelming wave of alternative fact outlets and their place in progressive's fight for mindshare. IMO, understanding exactly what is out there is absolutely paramount if anyone expects to gain influence over the people that are ensuring the current xenophobic agenda rampages on unchecked.


Basically: please seriously reconsider ignoring the IF.com crowd and their propaganda methods. It's time to truly know your enemy, or they will ccontinue to increase their influence.



Although it's certainly easy posting negative replies on Reddit, Neogaf, Facebook etc every time someone shows how the Alex Jones's of the world are continually corrupting their base with infuriatingly greater ease every day, it's also necessary to understand that same base of the populace is what Donnie and Bannon so desperately need to keep misinformed so they can stay in power. So what's needed, then? Well...

Arm yourself. Read the falsehoods that their side publishes about absolutely anyone who disagrees with them. Watch the videos they use to support their paper thin arguments and delude each other. LEARN how they twist truth so you understand what you're up against and use it against them if you want to change things. Let those lies be the fire under you that makes you take action, helps build stronger arguments to expose the charlatans and ignite a reason for change in those who were ignorantly misled by these autocrats.

The alt-right is pushing their agenda infinitely better than liberals and progressives - the constant insults, derogatory language and minimalization of anything besides the distortions coming from withing their hate machine are so easily fed to their masses that logic has lost all meaning. That's why they use the same tactics so often: it's been 100% effective.


If you want to win, you have to understand the game.


And if you're worried about giving then clicks or page views, don't be. They get enough of those already... and as you get deeper into their rhetoric you see that they fully expect liberals to ignore them. That's what they need, actually, if the other side writes them off unilaterally they can keep getting away with whatever they want and painting the left with the blame. Flip the script on them, folks. It's time to get dirty.





Tl;Dr: downplaying and ignoring infowars, breitbart, et al is going to end badly, they're too good at what they're doing. You have to understand how they work to get rid of them permanently.

 

[Red]

I agree. Not sure what else to add. It's important to stay abreast of their narrative.

 

[Galava]

your enemy

Whoa there buddy, you don't want to start a civil war movement.

Regarding the other things you said, yeah, I agree that if you want to understand the other side of the coin, you really have to know them, read their stuff and listen to them, understand them. Then make your own counter arguments and further develop your political views or at least to know how to deal with their messages.

 

[Vector]

They don't need anymore oxygen and signal boosting than they already have. Let them tear each other to pieces.

 

[More_Badass]

I agree. Not sure what else to add. It's important to stay abreast of their narrative.

I hear it every day, since my dad listens to Mark Levin

Everything is framed as a constant endless war. On one side are those fighting for your freedoms, to maintain the constitution, to keep the country safe, to give your children and your children's children a future.

And on the other side are those damn liberals. Those radical corrupt America-hating leftists who want to force their opinions on you, who want to destroy small businesses and your way of life because they care more about the environment than people's livelihood and want to raise your taxes and brainwash your children.. And they're all supported by the lying media like "The Washington Compost" and the "New York Slimes" and lying scientists who say climate change is real when it's really a hoax perpetrated to deindustrialize the country (But you can trust Breitbart and Conservative Review and these scientists who agree with us)

Everything the Republicans and conservatives do is to preserve the country. Everything the liberals and democrats do is wrong and anti-American

 

[gutter_trash]

they thrive on false information and they don't care if they know it.

They are not about truth but they are for pushing forward their own ''world view'' regardless of the facts

arguing about truths, data and facts is pointless with them. They don't care, they want the world the be reshaped into the way their manipulators see it

 

[teruterubozu]

Yeah I listen to conservative radio so I know what the marching orders of the day are for right-wingers.
It's amazing how they goose-step in line, word-for-word what's repeated on radio.

I hear it every day, since my dad listens to Mark Levin

Levin is terrible, but at least he despises Trump with a passion.

 

[Slayven]

I am going to keep it hundred. Minorities know this shit from growing up, you learn the code language and ques when you are small as a survival tactic. Hell it might be genetic memory at this point. But it is good the majority is picking up on this bullshit, a little late, but I guess better then never.

"Take back our country" and all that bullshit, we knew what time it was

 

[cheezcake]

I tried this. I started visiting r/the_donald and occasionally Breitbart to see the thought process behind justifying some of the more heinous shit. Turns out they just ignore it and the top posts are just usually something spastic like trying to get some feminists name to be associated with the swastika on Google images or something.

Honestly these people are beyond brainwashed, with a little bit of "for-the-lulz" edgelords thrown in

 

[Hoo-doo]

There needs to be level-headed conversation instead of one group hurling expletives to the other group and vice-versa.

Insulting the 'other side' didn't work when Trump was running for office, it won't work when he's in office. You'll just bolster their narrative on liberals being absolute brainwashed scum (their thoughts, not mine).

 

[zethren]

I agree.

I listen to conservative radio daily, and have done so for a while now. You can't let yourself get into a bubble, where you find yourself at a loss for words once something like Trump comes along.

Know what you're up against, and it helps keep you well rounded and informed as well. Because you know where their head is at.

It can be infuriating at times, but I agree that it is absolutely crucial.

 

[WhiteRabbitEXE]

I hear it every day, since my dad listens to Mark Levin

Everything is framed as a constant endless war. On one side are those fighting for your freedoms, to maintain the constitution, to keep the country safe, to give your children and your children's children a future.

And on the other side are those damn liberals. Those radical corrupt America-hating leftists who want to force their opinions on you, who want to destroy small businesses and your way of life because they care more about the environment than people's livelihood and want to raise your taxes and brainwash your children.. And they're all supported by the lying media like "The Washington Compost" and the "New York Slimes" and lying scientists who say climate change is real when it's really a hoax perpetrated to deindustrialize the country (But you can trust Breitbart and Conservative Review and these scientists who agree with us)

Everything the Republicans and conservatives do is to preserve the country. Everything the liberals and democrats do is wrong and anti-American

I hear it all too, and yup, this is spot on.

Honestly, the GOP has literally become a cult. It's terrifying.

 

[drspeedy]

They don't need anymore oxygen and signal boosting than they already have. Let them tear each other to pieces.

They won't, tho. See also:

Yeah I listen to conservative radio so I know what the marching orders of the day are for right-wingers.
It's amazing how they goose-step in line, word-for-word what's repeated on radio.

Jon Stewart used to be the best at showing this, TDS clips of everyone on the right parroting the day's talking points was funny in how blatant it was. Now it's become obvious that it wasn't funny, it's scary.

 

[BackLogJoe]

I, too, listen to far right radio during the day. It's either comedic or frightening. I like to know the shit they are saying, though. It makes for good discussion fodder for union meetings.

 

[More_Badass]

There needs to be level-headed conversation instead of one group hurling expletives to the other group and vice-versa.

Insulting the 'other side' didn't work when Trump was running for office, it won't work when he's in office. You'll just bolster their narrative on liberals being absolute brainwashed scum (their thoughts, not mine).

Doesn't help that they constantly push the notion that all of academia (high school too, not just college) is intent on brainwashing your children with liberal propaganda. So children can't even try to inform their parents with facts, because those "facts" are biased .

 

[Annubis]

Everything is framed as a constant endless war.

Sounds very 1984.
People should watch that movie.

 

[Darryl M R]

I am going to keep it hundred. Minorities know this shit from growing up, you learn the code language and ques when you are small as a survival tactic. Hell it might be genetic memory at this point. But it is good the majority is picking up on this bullshit, a little late, but I guess better then never.

"Take back our country" and all that bullshit, we knew what time it was

Yep. Also I won't lie; I am glad now others are picking up this coded language. I stopped going to certain sites, image boards, and forums when I noticed coded language wasn't getting called out.

It's just like saying "Make America Great Again" without explaining what period was America great.

 

[Toxi]

Arm yourself. Read the falsehoods that their side publishes about absolutely anyone who disagrees with them. Watch the videos they use to support their paper thin arguments and delude each other. LEARN how they twist truth so you understand what you're up against and use it against them if you want to change things. Let those lies be the fire under you that makes you take action, helps build stronger arguments to expose the charlatans and ignite a reason for change in those who were ignorantly misled by these autocrats.

The alt-right is pushing their agenda infinitely better than liberals and progressives - the constant insults, derogatory language and minimalization of anything besides the distortions coming from withing their hate machine are so easily fed to their masses that logic has lost all meaning. That's why they use the same tactics so often: it's been 100% effective.

You're suggesting people use logic to fight against the alt-right even though the effectiveness of the alt-right doesn't come from logic. These people don't give a shit if you poke holes in their argument, because their argument is an emotional appeal, not a logical one.

It's similar to the problem of how to combat pseudoscience. Pseudoscience is all style over substance. If you just try to argue with the substance, the person spouting pseudoscience will coast on style. Most pseudoscientists aren't actual scientists, they're journalists or amateurs who know how to play a crowd. And that's a skill you need to learn to deal with pseudoscience.

 

[cheezcake]

There needs to be level-headed conversation instead of one group hurling expletives to the other group and vice-versa.

Insulting the 'other side' didn't work when Trump was running for office, it won't work when he's in office. You'll just bolster their narrative on liberals being absolute brainwashed scum (their thoughts, not mine).

Be careful who you're trying to have a conversation with though, a good deal of these people are beyond external help. Though I think there's a good amount of reluctant Trump supporters and dispassioned centrists/democrats who can be reached, which is why I find it disappointing that this place decided to turn "economic anxiety" into a meme.

 

[jacobs34]

Sounds very 1984.
People should watch that movie.

...or perhaps read the book?

 

[Mimosa97]

I do. I read everything from the far left to the far right. I like to stay ahead of the tide and know what to expect if extremists end up in power.

Far-right forums are very hard to read and can really make you feel depressed and hopeless to see so much hate but yeah I feel like i absolutely have to stay informed no matter what so i read them anyway ...

 

[CrunchyB]

Basically: please seriously reconsider ignoring the IF.com crowd and their propaganda methods. It's time to truly know your enemy, or they will ccontinue to increase their influence.

Agreed. It may be equal parts lunacy and vitriol, but it's no good to go out of your way to avoid it altgother, it just makes fighting it much harder.

For instance, I only recently learned about that bizarre custom of adding triple parenthesis in order mark people or organizations as Jewish. At least now I know wtf is going on when people do that.

 

[Dude Abides]

There needs to be level-headed conversation instead of one group hurling expletives to the other group and vice-versa.

Insulting the 'other side' didn't work when Trump was running for office, it won't work when he's in office. You'll just bolster their narrative on liberals being absolute brainwashed scum (their thoughts, not mine).

Ok, you go the_donald and try to have a level-headed conversation. Let us know how it goes.

 

[urge26]

Agreed. Far right are going to have their opinion, far left are going to have their opinion. Both will fuel the fire uses "alt-facts", or propaganda fueling either side of the fire. I always choose not to feed the trolls, or let them spewing out information that's not fact checked get to me. I've chosen to be middle of the road (liberal on social aspects, fiscally conservative) and will still ignore reading the propaganda being spewed out in my Facebook and Twitter feeds. Honestly there are people in your lives who you can't change their views, it just creates divides with family members and friends (even though it means I might think you're utterly racist now, they choose to let that side of themselves shine through). Meanwhile I'll do things that I don't need to advertise, like choosing to support the ACLU and get my news from sources that don't lean to either side.

 

[MilkBeard]

I hear it every day, since my dad listens to Mark Levin

Everything is framed as a constant endless war. On one side are those fighting for your freedoms, to maintain the constitution, to keep the country safe, to give your children and your children's children a future.

And on the other side are those damn liberals. Those radical corrupt America-hating leftists who want to force their opinions on you, who want to destroy small businesses and your way of life because they care more about the environment than people's livelihood and want to raise your taxes and brainwash your children.. And they're all supported by the lying media like "The Washington Compost" and the "New York Slimes" and lying scientists who say climate change is real when it's really a hoax perpetrated to deindustrialize the country (But you can trust Breitbart and Conservative Review and these scientists who agree with us)

Everything the Republicans and conservatives do is to preserve the country. Everything the liberals and democrats do is wrong and anti-American

Yes. And it's very difficult to have discourse when everything ends up being "liberals this" and "liberals that". The best we can do is learn their talking points, and develop real, factual counterpoints that do not rely on debasing them with insults, but instead using hard evidence.

If we throw an equal amount of demeaning terms back at them, they will shut us out even further.

 

[WhiteRabbitEXE]

Yes. And it's very difficult to have discourse when everything ends up being "liberals this" and "liberals that". The best we can do is learn their talking points, and develop real, factual counterpoints that do not rely on debasing them with insults, but instead using hard evidence.

If we throw an equal amount of demeaning terms back at them, they will shut us out even further.

They already fully shut out facts and polite discourse though.

 

[cheezcake]

Ok, you go the_donald and try to have a level-headed conversation. Let us know how it goes.

you have been banned from r/the_donald

 

[More_Badass]

Ok, you go the_donald and try to have a level-headed conversation. Let us know how it goes.

Honestly, I'm convinced that the older generation is lost. You're not going to change their perspective on things

You have to inform and focus on the younger generations. My brother is 15 and believes in climate change and evolution, but the whole "Obama was a tyrant, liberals and left is bad" mindset is rubbing off on him.

 

[teruterubozu]

Honestly, I'm convinced that the older generation is lost. You're not going to change their perspective on things

You have to inform and focus on the younger generations. My brother is 15 and believes in climate change and evolution, but the whole "Obama was a tyrant, liberals and left is bad" mindset is rubbing off on him.

But they don't vote.

 

[Yado]

Trying to reason with these people is futile. They are tired of liberal rhetoric, the peace and blessings approach is only going to get you railroaded.

 

[infinityBCRT]

they thrive on false information and they don't care if they know it.

They are not about truth but they are for pushing forward their own ''world view'' regardless of the facts

arguing about truths, data and facts is pointless with them. They don't care, they want the world the be reshaped into the way their manipulators see it

These guys are basically the Patriots.

But I totally agree with OP. We need to know and understand what the other side is saying, and why these people feel the way they do.

 

[Freeza Under The Shower]

ehm, no. Because then it's just influencing you instead of time you could have used to learn more about stuff that is actually true, real, and happening.

You'd be wasting your time and peace of mind, along with your actual ability to resist nonsense, in favor of "reaching across the isle" bullshit. Just ask you loved ones to switch that shit off for a while, put on some music, and talk them down.

But you cannot reason with madness directly. All you will accomplish, is plunging yourself off the cliff too.
Same reason you can only rescue one drowning person at a time: one you control, but the second will pull you down and drown all three of you. Not because he's an evil son of a bitch, but because he's drowning, and he's desperate. Let. Him. Drown.

 

[urge26]

Honestly, I'm convinced that the older generation is lost. You're not going to change their perspective on things

You have to inform and focus on the younger generations. My brother is 15 and believes in climate change and evolution, but the whole "Obama was a tyrant, liberals and left is bad" mindset is rubbing off on him.

Your brother will get a bit older and once he forms further education will form the beliefs he'll stand for.

 

[More_Badass]

But they don't vote.

To be fair, that generation grew up through 8 years of Obama. Stuff is good, what's the worst that could happen?

 

[MilkBeard]

They already fully shut out facts and polite discourse though.

There is a saying...

You can lead a camel to water, but you can't make it drink. You can try your best to dispel falsehood, but if people completely shut it out, then there is a line to be drawn. It's also good to pick your battles. For example, I wouldn't bother going into the scummy message boards and trying to convince people they are wrong. It's more about when you meet people face to face who speak in these ways.

 

[Siegcram]

Arm yourself. Read the falsehoods that their side publishes about absolutely anyone who disagrees with them. Watch the videos they use to support their paper thin arguments and delude each other. LEARN how they twist truth so you understand what you're up against and use it against them if you want to change things. Let those lies be the fire under you that makes you take action, helps build stronger arguments to expose the charlatans and ignite a reason for change in those who were ignorantly misled by these autocrats.

There's a logical contradiction here. Their methods don't lend themselves to build counter-arguments upon. The right-wing talking points are devoid of internal consitency or factual basis to do so.
If you need motivation tonfight them and their narrative, you can find it easily by sticking to actual reporting on how the administration fueled by those lies acts on them.

There is no necessity to be up to date on their latest conspiracy to handle them effectively. And it isn't really necessaryto study Breitbart or Stormfront to understand their methods either.. Those aren't anything new. Targeted misinformation is as old as any other form of communication.

 

[SomewhatGroovy]

I do and it's painful.

The biggest problem our country suffers from is empathy , a need to absorb easy information off the web, and the lack of any training as it pertains to critical thinking skills (had to debate someone on FB who just lobbed strawmen, anecdotes and slippery slope and passed all their subsequent conclusions and assumptions off as facts).

With that said, I don't know if I necessarily agree with the premise of the OP. I think it is clear what people want from their leaders and country and I do not need to empathize with them given that their means of coming to their conclusions is to regurgitate talking points fed to them.

I would rather converse with people who are civil, have a different angle on things, and have thought out their positions rather than "stop" a bunch of fucking idiots who are limited to words like "safe space", "snowflakes" and "gunfree zones" .

I think just as important is the need to know when and how to react to news every time something about Trump and the alts comes out. We have just as much of a responsibility to make the right choices as well and we tend to deflect on our responsibility to do so.

 

[Stead Fast]

Agreed, but this doesn't simply apply to right-wing propaganda. This is just good practice in just about anything in life, if you want to succeed and stay relevant - a statement that is scary to say that the progressive and liberal side of the West is slowly losing sight of. I've never shied away from xenophobic propaganda, because, as scarily obvious it is to many that it is founded on primative fearmongering, simply assuming it is easy to deconstruct for someone influenced by it is wrong. They're aboslutely no point to stand on in a modern civilization, but many of them have managed to mask that with some insidiously compelling arguments. To ignore that is to do your own views an injustice, and makes you alot more suceptible to buying into their bullshit if you are caught off guard.

Edit: Also, in general but especially given the current climate, take that step back once you read/hear/see something, even if it seemingly affirms your own beliefs, and question it. You can be easily swayed by false information spread to help the Left too. That can just as, and in some cases more damaging than ignoring what the Right-Wing is spewing.

 

[tuxfool]

Be careful who you're trying to have a conversation with though, a good deal of these people are beyond external help. Though I think there's a good amount of reluctant Trump supporters and dispassioned centrists/democrats who can be reached, which is why I find it disappointing that this place decided to turn "economic anxiety" into a meme.

That is because it is a lot of nonsense. The poorest still voted Democratic, you know the ones most suffering from economic anxiety. Also a while back somebody showed that in swing states polls showing that people trusted Clinton more with the economy than Trump. It was somewhat marginal in many instances but given this information other factors had to start coming into play here.

 

[Captain Smoker]

My opinion, since I argued with hundreds and hundreds of people like this on Facebook:


Here in Germany, AfD voters are exactly the same.

Citing shitty Facebook sources, arguing with shitty quotes and images, using the same "arguments" (fucking lefties, green-party iditos, fucking USA, Putin is king, fucking NATO, fucking Merkel, etc.)



All in all, those people share the same tendencies as classic conspiracy theorists, sometimes they are in fact conspiracy theorists themselve. Right-wing propaganda and conspiracy theories go hand in hand.


Psychologically, you can't convince those people (or a very very small amount of them), because they convince themselves everyday that they are right,
but what you can do is presenting sane arguments, exposing the irony in their arguments, exposing everything about the shit they post.

Be it with humor, facts or logic.


It's not about those idiots who don't listen to you, it's about the mass of people who read along and recognize that those people are just a rambling bunch of babies.


If there would be as much sane people arguing with the same enthusiasm as right-wing-lunatics, those people wouldn't stand a chance in the Internet and the Internet is the place where opinions form.

 

[Pedrito]

There needs to be level-headed conversation instead of one group hurling expletives to the other group and vice-versa.

Insulting the 'other side' didn't work when Trump was running for office, it won't work when he's in office. You'll just bolster their narrative on liberals being absolute brainwashed scum (their thoughts, not mine).

It worked. Trump won and his team and supporters were all about insulting the other side.

We're not dealing with rational people acting in good faith here. Being nice and understanding won't do anything. Saying that, insulting them won't do anything either. All we can hope for is that they snap out of it eventually.

 

[drspeedy]

I, too, listen to far right radio during the day. It's either comedic or frightening. I like to know the shit they are saying, though. It makes for good discussion fodder for union meetings.

Great user name, btw


I have a new tactic I'm using... last weekend at a gathering one of my friends (a serious IF.com freak) made a sly insult like "yeah, right, coz big bad fracking is so evil it's made energy prices hit an all time low."

I simply agreed with him, how I was glad that China will be the greatest in solar and wind and free energy all they want, we'll be better off as 3rd or 4th largest economy in the world if we're energy independent, we won't buy their commie goods anyway.

He said they'd never beat us at solar, we'll be #1 in that, too.

I've also been praising the 20% tariffs on Mexican imports after the wall's built. I'm happy to pay 20% more taxes when it means we'll have American's making $7.50/hr picking lettuce. We need jobs.

 

[More_Badass]

All we can hope is that they snap out of it eventually.

As long as they listen to right-wing media, they won't.

 

[Peterpan]

As an outsider looking in. Supporting a political party seems like supporting a sports team, once you start, you can never leave. Us vs them mentality, that seems to stem from the two party system or two parties getting most of the votes.

 

[SerTapTap]

I'm not really sure this matters anymore, and I say this because I see these people so often.

What you say literally does not matter. Who you are doesn't matter. The facts do not matter. If AP, CNN, the New York Times, the EPA, NASA, literally anyone on the planet, even with reams of qualifications, says anything anti-trump they'll say "FAKE NEWS" and that's the end of it. IF you reply to them they'll say whatever insults they like and scurry off.

I've had people say "haha you just say people are nazis because you disagree", and a quick search for their username and a racial slur brings up them saying "gas the k***s". No matter what they say, yeah, they're racists, they're neo nazis, they're what people say and worse most of the time. These are people who will have a Reichsadler as their avatar and say "you liberals call anyone nazis".

These people have gone beyond caring about reality. The truth will never stop them.

IMO, the only way forward is to completely isolate them, abandon them, pay them no respect or mind and simply work on the 75% of people who didn't vote for trump (and maybe a scant few who did but have a brain, if that's possible), and make them realize how evil and blatantly false all of their bullshit is.

You can't argue with the neo-nazis, but you can show other people they're idiots.

 

[Formless]

Unfortunately I haven't really met anyone who completely turned around after marinating in right wing media. Their minds can be changed incrementally but it's for sure a big lifestyle change to stop.

 

[theWB27]

Nah...their rhetoric doesn't need to be learned by more people. I get what you're saying...but I feel like it's saying lets give people the arsenal and hope they don't use it against you.

All you need is facts...not their garbage to fight them. Spreading that info around more is dangerous OP.

 

[Weckum]

I visit r/the_donald regularly and to be honest, I feel like it's gonna so fucking hard to fight these attitudes.

 

[CrazyHorse]

You make a brilliant point. I as a Muslim find that similar things occur with extremist Muslims. They have certain arguments that they use to delude people, and no one opposes them. The mainstream Muslim preachers stick to more traditional arguments and subjects, and the Western media does not know what these extremists teach. So the deluded guy listens to a crazy Muslim preacher and is not able to work out the fallacies.

Now it might seem a waste of time to some people to refute this stupidity, but we need to recognize the fact that it makes a difference. Lives can be saved if we engage in refuting these lies.

 

[More_Badass]

As an outsider looking in. Supporting a political party seems like supporting a sports team, once you start, you can never leave. Us vs them mentality, that seems to stem from the two party system or two parties getting most of the votes.

I disagree. Three years ago, I was full-fledged conservative/Republican. Mainly because my perspective on politics was basically funneled through discussions with my dad and such. And it isn't a young/old/educated thing, because I was in college. We'd mock the ideas of my liberal political history professor on the commute home

Watching the Ferguson protest livestreams on GAF, hearing their concern and anger, and then seeing Fox News twist it into violent pointless rioting the next day changed that