Shake Appeal
Member
Never catcalled, never will. Don't understand why someone would do this. It's weird and presumptuous and gross.
Let's talk about catcalling
- Thread starter pashmilla
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It is sexual harassment, and it's an incredibly douchey thing to do.
At best (say, someone really clueless is just trying to hit on someone, and this is a HUGE stretch), it crosses a lot of social lines way too fast and causes a lot of discomfort in someone you're supposedly interested in getting closer to. You're not hitting on someone when you do this; you're just announcing that you're a loud douche. There are a million better ways to show interest in someone.
At worst, it's an act of deliberate intimidation and bullying. It's a guy yelling shit because he knows he can get away with it. It's an act of bullying because the guy is deliberately doing something that is rude, knowing that the woman can't do anything about it because most guys tend to be physically stronger than girls. Guys that catcall are exploiting this power difference. The same thing applies if a bunch of white guys yell the n-word and other hateful shit at a black guy walking alone.
At best (say, someone really clueless is just trying to hit on someone, and this is a HUGE stretch), it crosses a lot of social lines way too fast and causes a lot of discomfort in someone you're supposedly interested in getting closer to. You're not hitting on someone when you do this; you're just announcing that you're a loud douche. There are a million better ways to show interest in someone.
At worst, it's an act of deliberate intimidation and bullying. It's a guy yelling shit because he knows he can get away with it. It's an act of bullying because the guy is deliberately doing something that is rude, knowing that the woman can't do anything about it because most guys tend to be physically stronger than girls. Guys that catcall are exploiting this power difference. The same thing applies if a bunch of white guys yell the n-word and other hateful shit at a black guy walking alone.
Laevateinn
Member
Actually, it's more about ethics in street interactions.
lightskintwin
Banned
You don't, hence why some people go for it. How do I know if she'll be receptive if I try to dance with this girl in the club? I don't, hence I go for it. How do I know if she reciprocates my trying to kiss her on the first date? I can hopefully correctly read her body language, but at the end of day I'm never 100 percent sure and have to go for it inorder for me to find out.
Subpar Scrub
Banned
SliceSabre
Banned
It isn't cool and I've never done it.
Sure I'm not gonna lie I've certainly turned my head when a particularly interesting lady walks past but I don't gawk and whistle at her.
Sure I'm not gonna lie I've certainly turned my head when a particularly interesting lady walks past but I don't gawk and whistle at her.
Spider from Mars
tap that thorax
My girlfriend texts me an incident report every time she is harassed on the street. It's bonkers how a trip to the corner store results in like 3-4 incidents of men shouting something at her or making gestures.
Shake Appeal
Member
Also, if your defense is "but when women catcall me, it's flattering!" you need to think harder about patriarchal power dynamics.
Well, to be fair, if you're saying "ayyyy yo me lemme get your number" what are you actually implying? You don't know that person's character or personality, so you're - once again - objectifying her because of her looks. Let's not kid ourselves and assume you want to call them to have a deep and meaningful conversation with them on the phone.
But while we're at "what would you consider acceptable random 'compliments'"
How do you guys feel about "yo, love your style!" "them's some sweet shades!" "hey, awesome sneakers!" or non objectifying stuff like that? - no creepy followup, no agenda, just smile, maybe point, compliment.
I do feel that might actually brighten someone's day because it's not intrusive or objectifying - don't think i've said that to any woman yet, though, but maybe to a few random dudes who had particularly sweet shades, sneakers or overall styles. :/
Objectifying based on her looks, yes. She's attractive and thus I want to talk to her and get her number. But is that sexual harassment?
Matrix XII
Member
It's such a ridiculous and foolish thing to do.
Luckily me or my buddies never did that when we were younger.
Luckily me or my buddies never did that when we were younger.
Harassment can be repetitive in nature, but something doesn't have to be repetitive/recurring to be considered harassment.
Oxford Dictionary again:
It's fitting to be used in both a recurring and a standalone event.
Like I said, when the man go over that line and start following, and becoming more agressive, its already way over the limits of interaction, and I would constitute that as harrassement.
I dont know if there is, but I wonder fi there is a study of how many phisical abuses started from a catcalling remark escalated. A guy does a passing remark, the woman ignores it, then the guy gets up an follow her, she continues to ignore, he gets angry, and then actually phisically assaults a woman. If that is a commom ocurrence, and I have no idea if it is, but I would think it isnt, then yeah maybe something should be done to try and stop it. But if not, then ignoring seems to be working for the most part.
Can you elaborate?
pigeon interrupted
Member
Personally, I wouldn't date the kind of a guy who ogles attractive women and shouts suggestive comments across roads at them. Strangely, I think I would find it hard to trust them.
Stuff catnip in their drawstring pants and lock them in a room full of kittens.
Stuff catnip in their drawstring pants and lock them in a room full of kittens.
no idea, tbh. Some kind of victim interface maybe
Subpar Scrub
Banned
So asking out anybody is objectifying them? I don't understand what you're trying to say here.
excelsiorlef
Member
Ahhh yes the assumption that women are so shallow that catcalling is only unwanted when the man is ugly....
Thus we see the casual shifting of victimization from the women being cat called to the , in this context, "ugly" men performing the street harassment on the assumption that the real issue at hand is that she doesn't find him hot enough to be flattered.
Thank you. It's easy to laugh it off when it's only happened to you a handful of times throughout your entire life.
But no, calling it sexual harassment is just another attack in the "war on men". smh
I heard this and I wanted to rip the hair out of my head. It was maddeninf that she couldn't get through his thick head.
I suppose we can take that approach which is actually reasonable and should be expected. I think it is similar to using racial slurs, while in some context it might not be offensive, it is generally a risky word to use so why not avoid it, I suppose it is a case of net negative as you say. That said, I am very much a liberal type person, a lot of my thinking tend to swing that way so its hard for me to understand the origin of catcalling or its generalisations. All I know is that it used to be a way to solicit or invite some form of sexual attraction by both male and females in the past....well to the present to as well
erotic grandpa
Member
Uh, people at my job have absolutely been reprimanded/removed for this sort of shit on the grounds of sexual harassment. For good reason.
Ease off the contrarianism and have some empathy. Good god.
lightskintwin
Banned
You missed the "How" they do it as well? I've seen some guys be extremely witty, humorous, or charming when they do it that made the women positively respond to it.
ClosingADoor
Member
The point is that those situations I mentioned are happening. And the girl can't predict how it will go. So she is already forced to be on the defensive and lookout for what is going to happen. This is not a nice environment for her to be walking around in, while just going to get some groceries, on her way to work, the gym, whatever.
You are asking women to just ignore this behavior, but that won't solve the actual problem. And like I said, ignoring it will have some men become aggressive, shout more remarks, call her a bitch, etc, etc. Or it might be taken that she actually likes it, because well, she didn't say otherwise. The woman being called out loses no matter what.
Just because you don't consider something harassment because it doesn't fit your definition (which is skewed by your gender and environment), doesn't mean it's not a problem for other people.
Also, ignoring doesn't work. Because if it worked, then catcalling would have ended years ago.
excelsiorlef
Member
So basically the onus is on women to put up with harassing behaviour because hey it might work!
Uhhh, no. It's not "evil" to notice attractive people. That's programmed into your genetics to do so.
We can't control how we feel about/towards someone's physical appearance(to an extent), but we can certainly control how we act on it.
Aizen.S.Kennedy
Banned
You're equating cat calling with flirting. It would be like if I said: Some men enjoy being abused and dominated by women, so I just go around and take a chance, ridiculing men and telling them they're worthless. Sometimes it works out and they like it!
Trying to kiss your date is not the same as shouting at a woman on the street. The vast majority of women do not like or respond to cat calling, because cat calling is usually meant to intimidate and enforce a power dynamic.
lightskintwin
Banned
The problem is you view any interaction with a woman without knowing the outcome as sexual harassment.
And yet sometimes it's not. Sometimes catcalling is meant to get a stranger's attention so they can holla at them.
excelsiorlef
Member
Asking some stranger out on a random street corner based on absolutely nothing but her looks is kinda messed up.
I mean, I guess.... (At least for the former) For the latter, I don't think it has to be a repeat offense to be considered harassment, but I digress.
Either way, it just invites more questions, such as:
- Why is that person catcalling to begin with?
- How do you know if they'd respond positively to it? If you don't, why take that chance?
- Does the occasional woman that responds positively really justify doing it to begin with?
- Why is that person catcalling them instead of just speaking/flirting with them normally?
Like knowing what I know, including reading this thread, I can't ever in good conscience want to ever catcall someone, knowing that generally speaking women are tired of it, feel uncomfortable, etc. Empathy and what not. There may be some occasions when a woman for whatever reason doesn't mind, but like... I don't know how one would go about finding said women. And I don't know why someone would take that chance and want to catcall said women, hoping they're alright with it. It's not at all the same thing as say going up to them and striking a conversation.
This just seems like a weird hill to die on imo
Fear of ban? I mean, if they say something fucked up, then I don't see how that has to do with the other person. Just... don't say fucked up things. It low-key annoys me when people do the whole persecution complex routine. If they fear getting banned, then maybe they should think more carefully about what they want to say.
I disagree.
Fine Ham Abounds
Member
Verbal assault is already a crime. Depends on how far you're willing to take this behavior. Being an asshole isn't a crime. The punishment I would guess is the same for being as asshole. You go home and hop on your subreddit of choice and bitch about dating your hand on a Friday night again
There's an entire subset of men whom I've read trying to justify a whole variety of behavior because they suddenly find themselves with blue balls and a chub. As if that should in any way be the world's problem.
excelsiorlef
Member
No my issue is that the onus is seemingly on every woman who doesn't like being sexually harassed to deal with it because you might find the one who doesn't think it is.
You don't get how that's kinda messed up?
Subpar Scrub
Banned
Eh, I see it happen every night that I go to a club, casino, bar, party, convention, class, beach, marathon, obstacle course, paintball, bowling, shopping centre or any other gathering of people in a place. I don't think it's that messed up, tbh.
Yeah, because usually you know random strangers so well.
your first words to a completely random stranger being "yo lemme get your number" does not equal "asking somebody out", imho.
You don't know their personality. You wouldn't even know if they speak your language. You're literally just saying "YOU SO HOT I WANT YOU". You are clearly signifying primarily sexual interest, because you have no personal connection whatsoever.
lightskintwin
Banned
Once again I disagree that all catcalling is sexual harassment, I think a lot, if not most forms are, but not all.
Could you give an example of catcalling that you don't believe is sexual harassment?
excelsiorlef
Member
You just talked about a ton of social gatherings... I'm talking woman is walking to grocery store and guy comes out of nowhere and says yo wanna date?
A party and a convention are not a random street or a random street corner.
Subpar Scrub
Banned
My problem wasn't with the stupid way the person was "asking someone out". It was with the idea that asking someone out based on looks is entirely objectifying.
lightskintwin
Banned
This. I realize some of ya'll sheltered on Gaf, but this is the reality.
Aizen.S.Kennedy
Banned
That's what I'm saying.
It's so situational. You have to judge the place and the person you are approaching - if their body language and expressions read they are unhappy or just don't look like they have the time then approaching them is obviously a very poor idea.
Compared to at a club, bar, whatever where the person is joking around or having fun, it's completely different.
One is appropriate, one isn't. The problem is there's a fucking lot of people who are completely oblivious to the feelings and language of people they approach.
You can ask someone out based on looks. Sure, then you're just being superficial. But what we're describing here is not asking someone out.
People called "yo lemme get your number" as non-sexual and thereby not harassment / catcalling, and i merely pointed out that it's not about the words (asking someone for their digits is non-sexual, per se) but what the catcaller implies in his driveby comment. The implication is clearly sexual.
ClosingADoor
Member
So, let's do a quick Google Search and see what some studies say.
http://pashionistas.com/post/139926490718/5-statistics-that-prove-catcalling-is-a-problem
- Over 99 percent of American women say they've been a victim of street harassment
So, this pretty much happens to all women. Should we be OK with it, because a minority of those women might be OK with it?
- Majority of women, globally, say they first experienced street harassment before the age of 17.
Seems this happens to most girls growing up. Should we still find the general behavior acceptable, even if that leads to men doing this to young girls, or should we draw a line and say: no, just stop it?
But by all means, continue excusing this behavior, because apparently there are some women who have no problem with it /s
excelsiorlef
Member
A good rule of thumb is if you literally don't know them, and just see them walking down the street don't ask for their phone number just because you think they're hot.
lightskintwin
Banned
Woman walks down the street, A guy on the street sees her and says "Hey Beautiful", She ignores him and keeps walking. The guy goes back to what he was doing.
Subpar Scrub
Banned
Edited in some public places I mentioned, not that it alters the message that much. Walking up to someone you find attractive and asking to go grab a coffee or something isn't creepy in my opinion.
What? Do you ask someone about their job, interests, hobbies and values before asking them out or something? That's what a first date is for, imo. It's not superficial asking someone out because you find them attractive, it would be if that's the only reason you want to pursue a relationship and don't care about their other qualities, though. Holy shit.
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