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[ClosingADoor]

Do people here consider complimenting a stranger catcalling? Since if so that's kinda messed up. I mean i completely understand that it's not at all ok to yell sexual shit at randoms but personally as a man, i have always been super flattered be it a man or woman who comes up and compliments me out of the blue. Sure it was a bit weird when a gay guy came up to me and told me that i melted his heart and the ran away giggling but it was still flattering even if weird.

The reason why i'm asking this is because i was a bit confused at the "hey girl" thing in this thread.

The context matters. If I go up to someone and tell them I like their sneakers and ask where they got them, it's different from just saying "you are pretty" or "smile".

I think the problem of us guys not always seeing how these situations can make people feel, is because for us it might be a compliment every few months in that manner. But if that happens randomly multiple times a month or even week, the situation changes for the one being approached. And that is not even getting into the men who just plainly are rude, make obscene comments and get violent if the girl doesn't respond in their preferred manner. Power dynamic is different, someone calling out a girl from a group of men is very much threatening in a way that a girl approaching a guy isn't.

But it's not. It's of sexual nature by definition, not sexual harassment. Of course, a guy yelling "Show me your tits" is of sexual nature and sexual harassment but a guy saying "hi gorgeous" (just to have another "hey lady" example) is also of sexual nature but it's not harassment, especially not if the woman ignores him and the guy leaves it at that. He made a stupid comment, his intentions were clear but it didn't work. He didn't do anything afterwards how is that harassing anyone?

That's the thing. How they felt doesn't have to be how it actually was. A guy looks at the ass of a woman. The woman feels violated and sexually harassed but was neither of those.

Do you realize how this comes across when you are talking like this? It comes across as you telling women not to feel threatened or harassed because well "I don't control their feelings." You know damn well how things like staring at someone, calling them randomly in the street and more of that kind of behavior comes across, but are doing your best to downplay it.

 

[Fliesen]

But it's not. It's of sexual nature by definition, not sexual harassment. Of course, a guy yelling "Show me your tits" is of sexual nature and sexual harassment but a guy saying "hi gorgeous" (just to have another "hey lady" example) is also of sexual nature but it's not harassment, especially not if the woman ignores him and the guy leaves it at that. He made a stupid comment, his intentions were clear but it didn't work. He didn't do anything afterwards how is that harassing anyone?

so that's your argument? It's sexual, but not harassment, because they only tried once? Sheesh. :/

 

[RichiRamjag]

Ok, so if a mobster tells me "Nice fingers you got there, would be a shame if you lost one of them" it's not intimidation because he complimented my fingers and then said something true; that it would be a shame to lose one of them?

I'd tell him that his fingers aren't too bad either and maybe we'd strike up a convo and go get manicures together.

Well before they banned wolf whistling on major building sites in UK there were plenty of women who actually enjoyed it and would even give a bit of back and forth with the blokes. Even had a few women who didn't get whistled at due to the ban asking why and calling it stupid.

You only need hit the streets of a local town at night to hear in mass the same back and forth still alive and well though, plenty of women are as guilty of the act.

Link to when the ban started, the guy implementing it even admits he wife liked it and she was against the ban. Resulting in reactions like this from women disappointed at the decision.

In a twist shortly after some young women were banned from whistling at men on site, despite there being no complaints about it. This was a one off pretty much though, you still to this day have women whistling at men, the men just cannot reciprocate.

Are celebs such as Joanna Lumley, Anne Robinson and Rebecca Shaw who are actually for it.

So the view is far from one sided. I will point out though there is a huge line between a wolf whistle and asking if someone's tits are cold.

That certainly is true.

 

[Stallion Dan]

I've never understood why guys do it? You're just highlighting to the world that you're a dickhead.

Well before they banned wolf whistling on major building sites in UK there were plenty of women who actually enjoyed it and would even give a bit of back and forth with the blokes. Even had a few women who didn't get whistled at due to the ban asking why and calling it stupid.

You only need hit the streets of a local town at night to hear in mass the same back and forth still alive and well though, plenty of women are as guilty of the act.

Link to when the ban started, the guy implementing it even admits he wife liked it and she was against the ban. Resulting in reactions like this from women disappointed at the decision.

In a twist shortly after some young women were banned from whistling at men on site, despite there being no complaints about it. This was a one off pretty much though, you still to this day have women whistling at men, the men just cannot reciprocate.

Are celebs such as Joanna Lumley, Anne Robinson and Rebecca Shaw who are actually for it.

So the view is far from one sided. I will point out though there is a huge line between a wolf whistle and asking if someone's tits are cold.

 

[LotusHD]

This came back to me when I saw that video of the woman walking and being catcalled in NY, I noticed 2 things from that video.

First, the passing remarks must be annoying, but I dont see how they would constitute sexual harrassement. Like a guy just shouting something from afar.

Second, I got to see a woman's point of view, and some of those interactions must have been terryfing to them. LIke the guys who would follow them, and keep talking to them after it was clear they wanted nothing, and the guys kept on it, now that is something different altogether. That is clear harrassment to me.

The passing remarks alone can be just as terrifying you know...

 

[lightskintwin]

I think some forms of catcalling are sexual harassment, specifically ones that go overboard, disrespectful, or violate people's personal spaces. However, I think it's way too simplistic to label all forms of catcalling.

 

[TalonJH]

I don't get the allure of catcalling. Why would anyone think it's okay? There was a story on This American Life where someone tried to explain why it's wrong to a catcaller and he just wasn't getting it.

 

[kamineko]

I think catcalling is disgusting, but it's really important for me to understand how much I can get away with before it crosses the line into catcalling

I'm pretty sure catcalling is the stuff other people do, but whatever I do is fine. Doing the right thing is important for me

Women are great, I mean, they're just fantastic, the very best

 

[OG Shaka Zulu]

Catcalling is sexual harassment, agree.

 

[pashmilla]

itt: #notallcatcalling

 

[LotusHD]

I think some forms of catcalling are sexual harassment, specifically ones that go overboard, disrespectful, or violate people's personal spaces. However, I think it's way too simplistic to label all forms of catcalling.

What forms of catcalling don't qualify as sexual harassment then?

 

[Subpar Scrub]

There are plenty of ways to show interest in someone of the opposite sex in the right time and place without sexual harassment. You know you could....*gasp* treat them like a human being.

Uhhhh, did he edit his post or something? Nothing he said in that post seemed to indicate he treats women as sub-human animals or something. If he didn't edit it, get a grip.

itt: #notallcatcalling

Eh, I generally enjoy watching conversation more than watching a circle-jerk. I see some good points, quite a few bad ones too, but I get to see new perspectives and opinions. It's a good thing.

 

[Aizen.S.Kennedy]

Well before they banned wolf whistling on major building sites in UK there were plenty of women who actually enjoyed it and would even give a bit of back and forth with the blokes. Even had a few women who didn't get whistled at due to the ban asking why and calling it stupid.

You only need hit the streets of a local town at night to hear in mass the same back and forth still alive and well though, plenty of women are as guilty of the act.

Link to when the ban started, the guy implementing it even admits he wife liked it and she was against the ban. Resulting in reactions like this from women disappointed at the decision.

In a twist shortly after some young women were banned from whistling at men on site, despite there being no complaints about it. This was a one off pretty much though, you still to this day have women whistling at men, the men just cannot reciprocate.

Are celebs such as Joanna Lumley, Anne Robinson and Rebecca Shaw who are actually for it.

So the view is far from one sided. I will point out though there is a huge line between a wolf whistle and asking if someone's tits are cold.

Nah get that valid example of women enjoying it out of here. All the guys ITT( a a few women) said that catcalling is threatening and women don't like it. Let's ignore that women aren't a monolith and actually feel different ways about different things.
Let's ignore people who call out to women and end up sparking convos with them and getting phone numbers/hooking up later etc.
It NEVER works amirite guys.

 

[HarryKS]

itt: #notallcatcalling

Don't you think it's a bit disingenuous to write that considering you started a thread for debate's sake.

It's all a bit too facile regardless of what one's point is.

 

[Shredderi]

Never seen it happen myself but know it happens to my friends. Seems just so... stupid? Like it doesn't really server any end goal.

 

[lightskintwin]

What forms of catcalling don't qualify as sexual harassment then?

The times where she positively responds to it or the times when she shows a face of disapproval or doesn't respond and the person stops.

 

[pashmilla]

Don't you think it's a bit disingenuous to write that considering you started a thread for debate's sake.

It's all a bit too facile regardless of what one's point is.

I had this post in mind when I said it:

I think some forms of catcalling are sexual harassment, specifically ones that go overboard, disrespectful, or violate people's personal spaces. However, I think it's way too simplistic to label all forms of catcalling.

 

[Boem]

But it's not. It's of sexual nature by definition, not sexual harassment. Of course, a guy yelling "Show me your tits" is of sexual nature and sexual harassment but a guy saying "hi gorgeous" (just to have another "hey lady" example) is also of sexual nature but it's not harassment, especially not if the woman ignores him and the guy leaves it at that. He made a stupid comment, his intentions were clear but it didn't work. He didn't do anything afterwards how is that harassing anyone?

So now you've switched to 'it's sexual, but not harassment'? A guy just randomly shouting something of a sexual nature to a random woman on the street isn't harassment? Really?

You also still seem heavily confused about the difference between catcalling and flirting btw.

That's the thing. How they felt doesn't have to be how it actually was. A guy looks at the ass of a woman. The woman feels violated and sexually harassed but was neither of those.

What..the...

'The woman feels violated and sexually harassed but was neither of those'.

Read that sentence again. Do you know what feeling violated/sexually harassed means? It means that you were.

You're making up your own definitions, treating them as fact, you're dismissing the very real, very personal stories of women in this thread as 'well, you might have felt violated, but actually you weren't'.

You're either trolling, begging for a ban, or really just an idiot. Possibly all of them.

Whatever the case, I'm done with you. I'm not going to waste my time anymore trying to explain basic empathy to someone like you. You're clearly more interested in Not Being Wrong On The Internet™, and you're willing to act like a dick towards women sharing stories about being sexually violated by telling them, despite all the factual evidence, they're wrong for feeling that way because you can't wrap your head around personal perception and common courtesy in public spaces.

You should know, the more you're posting and digging this hole for yourself, the more you come across as a really creepy dude. Think about what you're saying and the language you're using, and that you're openly doing it in a thread with actual women sharing their actual experiences.

 

[Boozeroony]

For the straight guys: Imagine yourself in a gay bar, enjoying a drink with your (gay) friend. All night, random guys are catcalling you. Now, imagine this happening all day. How would you feel?

 

[Tosyn_88]

What forms of catcalling don't qualify as sexual harassment then?

I think is all relative to be honest. I think there needs to be an open, honest, non-rude discussion about this topic to better establish where both sides of this argument are coming from because so far, I barely see anyone in here who is opposing the OP in a meaningful debate for fear of ban. I hope someone who honestly disagrees can come in and share another point of view because so far, I don't feel there has been much to learn.
The consensus so far has been that it is disrespectful and rude which I agree with, especially with a stranger but then I am also aware that it is also within certain context, so where are drawing a line, what are acceptable context? Is it only ok in certain scenarios, is it a case of different preferences for individuals? Id like to see more meaningful discussion rather than a drive by post or the ignorant bashing etc

 

[The Albatross]

Not meant to make fun of you, sorry, if it comes off the wrong way, but I had to smile upon the thought that this:

is a photo of one such incident .

That is dead on, hahaha.

 

[LionPride]

For the straight guys: Imagine yourself in a gay bar, enjoying a drink with your (gay) friend. All night, random guys are catcalling you. Now, imagine this happening all day. How would you feel?

1. Guys get catcalled by women too, it's nowhere near as prevalent but c'mon.
2. I'd feel the same way I do when I get catcalled, slightly uncomfortable with the thought "Why are you talking to me" going through my head

 

[AllGamer]

It comes across as you telling women not to feel threatened or harassed

I already said that they can feel whatever the fuck they want. But just because they felt that way doesn't make it so. Just because a guy walks behind a woman at night and the woman feels scared and threatened doesn't make the whole situation scary and frightening.

so that's your argument? It's sexual, but not harassment, because they only tried once? Sheesh. :/

Harassment is of repetitive nature. YMMV.

 

[daviyoung]

For the straight guys: Imagine yourself in a gay bar, enjoying a drink with your (gay) friend. All night, random guys are catcalling you. Now, imagine this happening all day. How would you feel?

As a massive attention seeker I'd welcome all of it.

 

[Subpar Spatula]

i've learned giving an intense dragonball stare is more rewarding for both parties

 

[lightskintwin]

Let's not act like who does the catcalling and how they do it plays a significant part in how women respond to it.

 

[Subpar Scrub]

Harassment is of repetitive nature.

Not always. You can be punished for sexual harassment after only one interaction.

I had this post in mind when I said it:

Ah, might be better to quote the post you're replying to then, looked like you were condemning the whole thread lol.

Also, surely there's a better response to his post than a passive-aggressive hashtag?

 

[Fine Ham Abounds]

I'm trying to imagine another context in which being rude and presumtuous to complete strangers would ever be assumed to result in a positive outcome for either party

 

[HarryKS]

I had this post in mind when I said it:

Ok.

But that suggests a bit of derision from your part. Wouldn't the goal of the thread be to entertain a discussion about what is deemed an offense or not?

That person may very well have a notion of catcalling which differs from yours. Sometimes it is simply a matter of not understanding the level of severity of an action which would lead to such action being interpreted as catcalling.

Let's not act like who does the catcalling and how they do it plays a significant part in how women respond to it.

You mean doesn't play?

 

[Vital Tundra]

It's weird because I would think a well adjusted person would know that it makes the person uncomfortable, and makes themselves look like an asshole to others, guess not though.

 

[BlitzKeeg]

That is sexual harassment.

But it's not. It's of sexual nature by definition, not sexual harassment. Of course, a guy yelling "Show me your tits" is of sexual nature and sexual harassment but a guy saying "hi gorgeous" (just to have another "hey lady" example) is also of sexual nature but it's not harassment, especially not if the woman ignores him and the guy leaves it at that. He made a stupid comment, his intentions were clear but it didn't work. He didn't do anything afterwards how is that harassing anyone?

That's the thing. How they felt doesn't have to be how it actually was. A guy looks at the ass of a woman. The woman feels violated and sexually harassed but was neither of those.

You're ignoring the implications of catcalling. The people who do this are doing it because of its sexual implications. This is known by both the catcaller and the victim, thus they are being sexually harassed.
Just because you have a higher bar that needs to be passed in order to consider something sexual harassment doesn't mean that it isn't the case.

If you're a guy, you don't have to deal with this shit and you aren't objectified by nearly every aspect of modern society, so it's easy to keep your bar for sexual harassment high.

The bottom line is that this is a problem, and you're pretending it isn't.

 

[ClosingADoor]

I already said that they can feel whatever the fuck they want. But just because they felt that way doesn't make it so. Just because a guy walks behind a woman at night and the woman feels scared and threatened doesn't make the whole situation scary and frightening.

But you might take that into account, be a nice person and go: well, this behavior is probably not wanted for most people, so maybe I shouldn't defend it. Instead you are dismissing it and saying: well, fuck their feelings.

Sadly, we don't live in a perfect world, so I can fully understand why the girl walking in front of me would feel uncomfortable when a guy is walking behind her for some time, even if I have to go the same direction. It makes the situation scary and frightening to her.

In that instance I have little control over it however, since I also just need to go that way. But I most definitely do not need to make random remarks about how pretty a girl I don't know is in the middle of the street, and not doing so is fully in my control and won't cost me any inconvenience.

 

[Glix]

I dont do it. Never have. Im a "nice guy" and Im shy and its pretty gross.

I wont lie I *notice* when an attractive woman walks by and I am outside smoking, but i dont act on it. I dont know if that means I have an evil heart or whatever.

These days in nyc the only times I see catcalls are groups of drunk idiots. Even the construction workers dont do it anymore.

 

[Boem]

Harassment is of repetitive nature. YMMV.

Harassment is not always of a repetitive nature. Where are you getting this from? You're making up random rules in a doomed effort to make whatever you're saying make sense.

If I walk down the street and punch a guy in the face, and then walk away, obviously that's harassment. If I throw 1 racial slur at someone, clearly that's harassment.

What's different with sexual harassment? One time is fine, come back when it keeps going on?

Not that I'm expecting an in-depth response at this point. You're still ignoring every argument against you because, well, otherwise you'd be Wrong On The Internet™, and there's nothing more important than avoiding that.

Like I said, I'm done. Enjoy the rest of whatever it is you're trying to accomplish here.

 

[Sethista]

The passing remarks alone can be just as terrifying you know...

Im sure it can be, but that is my point. Not every single catcall constitutes as sexual harrassement. If a passing remark is agressive in nature, I agree with you, passing remarks can be terrifying. But not all are. and usually, even going by the new york video, most of the passing remarks there were not agressive, so in my perspective they would not constitute harrassment. Now the guys following the woman there, clearly are.

 

[H.Protagonist]

I think is all relative to be honest. I think there needs to be an open, honest, non-rude discussion about this topic to better establish where both sides of this argument are coming from because so far, I barely see anyone in here who is opposing the OP in a meaningful debate for fear of ban. I hope someone who honestly disagrees can come in and share another point of view because so far, I don't feel there has been much to learn.
The consensus so far has been that it is disrespectful and rude which I agree with, especially with a stranger but then I am also aware that it is also within certain context, so where are drawing a line, what are acceptable context? Is it only ok in certain scenarios, is it a case of different preferences for individuals? Id like to see more meaningful discussion rather than a drive by post or the ignorant bashing etc

Well, there was that wolf-whistling OK-ed by three women example, but in general, it's not a welcome thing. Since people seem to individually have trouble reading context and/or interpreting situations where such a thing might get a positive response (on the seemingly rare chance it would), wouldn't it better to err on not at all and just actually talk to women if they're interested in them? Why not stamp it for what it generally is: an unwelcome sexual advance? Are men incapable of not doing this, of controlling themselves? Does there need to be an out here?

 

[Subpar Scrub]

I wont lie I *notice* when an attractive woman walks by and I am outside smoking, but i dont act on it. I dont know if that means I have an evil heart or whatever.

Please tell me you're joking.

No, seeing someone and thinking "I find them quite attractive" doesn't mean you're evil. That's absolutely ridiculous.

If I walk down the street and punch a guy in the face, and then walk away, obviously that's harassment.

Uhh no, that's assault.

 

[AllGamer]

Read that sentence again. Do you know what feeling violated/sexually harassed means? It means that you were.

Wow. Thank god people like you are not in charge of anything. Because someone subjectively felt like x must mean it must have been objectively like x. I am not trolling or begging for a ban, and I am not an idiot. But thanks, anyway.

 

[Hylian7]

Uhhhh, did he edit his post or something? Nothing he said in that post seemed to indicate he treats women as sub-human animals or something. If he didn't edit it, get a grip.

but the thread ended up reminding me of that comic strip where the guy goes to another country bc some girl files harassment bc he showed interest.

Unless I misunderstood this, he sounded like he was drawing a parallel to this comic.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Im sure it can be, but that is my point. Not every single catcall constitutes as sexual harrassement. If a passing remark is agressive in nature, I agree with you, passing remarks can be terrifying. But not all are. and usually, even going by the new york video, most of the passing remarks there were not agressive, so in my perspective they would not constitute harrassment. Now the guys following the woman there, clearly are.

I think that when it happens to a person that often, the remarks that we as men see as pretty OK, can to the girl feel threatening or aggressive.

Keep in mind, that there are tons of examples of perfectly normal guys losing control and becoming aggressive also after their previous remarks are not taken the way they want to. And the girl doesn't know that! So one guy might become aggressive if he is ignored. Another might think he can continue the behavior if the girl gives a quick smile. Another might become threatening if the girl says something back. And they don't know this, because they are strangers.

 

[ant_]

So, what should be the punishment for cat calling?

If cat calling is a crime in all forms, one must think of what they deem to be an adequate sentence from a judge.

 

[Boem]

Uhh no, that's assault.

You're right, bad example, my bad. Threatening to punch someone then.

Wow. Thank god people like you are not in charge of anything. Because someone subjectively felt like x must mean it must have been objectively like x. I am not trolling or begging for a ban, and I am not an idiot. But thanks, anyway.

Who decides if it's sexual harassment here? The guy doing the harassment, or the victim? Or you?

If someone shouts a sexual comment at someone (which, as we've already defined with the Oxford example, is what catcalling is), and that person feels sexually harassed, in what world is it not sexual harassment? If you take the victim's side (and the law's), it is. If you take the aggressor's side, it might not be. But why would you do that? Sexual harassment is defined by the effect an action has on someone. Who are you to claim otherwise? Why do you get to decide for the victims if they're right for feeling violated or not?

What you're saying still doesn't make any sense.

 

[BlitzKeeg]

You're ignoring the implications of catcalling. The people who do this are doing it because of its sexual implications. This is known by both the catcaller and the victim, thus they are being sexually harassed.
Just because you have a higher bar that needs to be passed in order to consider something sexual harassment doesn't mean that it isn't the case.

If you're a guy, you don't have to deal with this shit and you aren't objectified by nearly every aspect of modern society, so it's easy to keep your bar for sexual harassment high.

The bottom line is that this is a problem, and you're pretending it isn't.

Im sure it can be, but that is my point. Not every single catcall constitutes as sexual harrassement. If a passing remark is agressive in nature, I agree with you, passing remarks can be terrifying. But not all are. and usually, even going by the new york video, most of the passing remarks there were not agressive, so in my perspective they would not constitute harrassment. Now the guys following the woman there, clearly are.

The same applies to you

 

[excelsiorlef]

Nah get that valid example of women enjoying it out of here. All the guys ITT( a a few women) said that catcalling is threatening and women don't like it. Let's ignore that women aren't a monolith and actually feel different ways about different things.
Let's ignore people who call out to women and end up sparking convos with them and getting phone numbers/hooking up later etc.
It NEVER works amirite guys.

Ok?

So then who is right the people who like something (but let's be honest aren't going to be hurt by it not happening) or the whole ton of people who don't like something and are in fact hurt by it....


Is it your argument that women should just put up with cat calling and street harassment because look it works 2% of the time?

 

[TBiddy]

You're right, bad example, my bad. Threatening to punch someone then.

Usually harassment is defined as being something repetitive. Unless you follow said guy down the street and continually harass him, it's not harassment. Threatening to punch a random person on the street isn't harassment. It's just a threat.

 

[Ethelwulf]

If I'm allowed to ask op, where are you from? Culture can make a huge difference.

 

[Subpar Scrub]

Unless I misunderstood this, he sounded like he was drawing a parallel to this comic.

I don't know, I read that comment as him seeing the individuals saying "it's fine" as having a persecution complex and getting dogpiled or something. Maybe I'm mistakened?

 

[excelsiorlef]

The times where she positively responds to it or the times when she shows a face of disapproval or doesn't respond and the person stops.

How do you know if she'll like it before you do it?

 

[JimmyRustler]

I think it depends on the context in which it's done. I've been "catcalled" before and I'm male.

I remember that one time that was actually pretty sweet. Was walking with my dog in the evening and a small group a girls came across. One of them was like "Ohh.... is he sweet!", obviously referring to the dog, and then the other one goes "Yeah, the dog is sweet too."

Was pretty smooth. Gave me a good chuckle.

So yeah, I think you can do this in a nice, flattering way.

 

[Dude Abides]

Catcalling lets me know which frustrated dudes dropped out of high school and will mow my lawn or clean my gutters for cheap.