Yeah that was the element I liked the least, but the fight between them at the farm house was incredible.
Logan |OT| Children of (X)Men (SPOILERS)
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Yeah that was the element I liked the least, but the fight between them at the farm house was incredible.
There were two things. Someone was drawing a syringe full and someone else said "no don't use so much". And then Rictor's note was to not use it all at once. But then Logan did use it all at once, and it wasn't a problem at all.
While I can appreciate the thematic symmetry of Logan having to fight against a corrupted representation of his former himself I think the thing that I personally didn't respond to is that once the clone is introduced most if not all the proceeding action beats culminates in a emotionally visceral, but fairly rote, 1 on 1 between the two. Compared to the earlier variations on the action set pieces the settings for these brawls are basically on flat ground without much in the environment to play against. It leaves it feeling far too familiar and non-specific.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
But it drastically weakened him once it ran out. He crashed. And then he had to fight a clone of himself who was also pumped up on the shit.
Which is why he died.
Pretty sure Pierce pointed out that he'd fucked up because of that, didn't he?
This is the best explanation I've read so far for why the X-24 stuff didn't quite pop the way it probably should have. Good stuff.
Brian_FETO
Banned
That was the moment where I was like "ahh shit, time for Fox to drop the ball" but it ended up working out
Definitely not a Silver Samurai at least
Brian_FETO
Banned
It sucks that you already know about it going in though, there's some nice surprise to it....
It really isn't bad it's just, as I said, the first red flag where you're like "this could go really poorly". Ends up just being a Terminator type deal which I dig. Could it have been someone else? Sure. But I think it works. X-23 was a "failed" attempt at making a mutant from Logan so may as well just make Logan
Nah it just wore out before he had a chance to heal all the wounds, which he wouldn't have been capable of sustaining in the first place if he hadn't taken it.
The real question is: why does the green juice exist *at all*. It's straight meaningless. You can trivially write a script where Logan rushes into battle and sustains lethal damage without the juice. It only functions as an excuse to give him a full-throttle final battle instead of a gimp-ass final battle. Which, hey, it's a comic book movie. So sure, whatever.
There''s that, but I'll also concede that they could have set up the clone in a manner that highlighted the thematic duality a little bit more instead of it feeling like a plot of the evil villain.
They already set up the idea of the parent-child relationship between Xavier and Logan (and again between Logan and Laura) and contrast that with the relationship between the clone and Dr Rice, but whereas the former is the bulk of the film's heart the latter is reduced to a scant few line readings and minor moments leading to the clone lacking much of that emotional baggage in the climactic duel.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
So you just explained pretty clearly why it exists in the script then? I don't understand why you're even complaining about it.
Plus I'm also pretty sure it leaves him weakened and not as healthy immediately after it wears off. Even when they gave it to him in the cabin he basically had to sleep the correct dosage off for awhile, didn't he?
Also, I don't know how you "trivially" write the script so that he does what he does in that final battle with the drastically weakened healing factor he's got but without that green shit augmenting his abilities.
Maybe they could have, but at that point, I don't know if the gains are worth the time and energy you'd need to spend to introduce yet another duality/conflict/musing on the nature of Logan when like you said, he's already examining those notions through his relationship with Charles (his dad) and Laura's presence (his daughter). He's already fighting his own nature (and losing to it slowly) on his own. The physical manifestation of his worst aspects probably doesn't need to be examined that much further, and probably would have detracted from either the Charles or Laura aspects, I bet.
At which point you need to REALLY make those physical confrontations pop, and they just... didn't. Not in the one-on-ones.
unpopularblargh
Member
That was my screening too. It was messed up. Almost ruined my viewing.
Also I think this is the first movie since The Road where I've seen the audience walk out super quiet. So eerie.
I liked the movie. I just need more time to organize my thoughts. But I definitely liked it a lot. I walked out thinking I need to rewatched this. Which I haven't thought since Children Of Men/No Country For Old Men.
More_Badass
Member
Make sense IMO. I mean, the third main character is a Wolverine clone too.
I bet if they cut out that egregious mobile phone exposition dump and replaced that with a single scene between Dr Rice and X-24 exploring their mirrored relationship that would have benefited the film that much more.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
"he can just fight with a limp" doesn't square at all with what's going on in the woods there. Removing the green shit doesn't actually make anything better. Especially since you seem to understand exactly how and why the green shit is in this story. His healing factor is fucked, and is getting worse as the movie goes on. He sustains a shitload of injuries, and without that stuff in his veins, the injuries he would have sustained BEFORE getting to X-24 would have killed him.
So you're basically suggesting that final setpiece should have had less bad guys, Wolverine taking less shots, and basically just ratcheting down the threat and the tension completely?
I don't know if that would have made anything any easier in the writing, and I'm not sure it would have actually improved anything, either.
Maybe. But I don't know, it feels like too much sauce, to me. But I agree that phone-flashback shit got a little too creaky/wobbly. I don't know that you can cut it out COMPLETELY, but you can definitely cut it back.
The other place the editing felt weird to me was back at the house, when Logan & the dad have JUST gone out to fix the water. Shit seemed a little jumpy there.
I thought the green juice stood out as kind of pointless.
How many times has a weakened, on-the-ropes hero made a miraculous come back in the last moment for victory?
I get it though, it's a bit of a flaw but not enough to detract from the movie. there are other greater flaws too, but none take away what the movie has.
I'll also agree with the sentiment that the duality of the clone vs Logan could have been highlighted better. Like explicitly point out that that is what Logan was always meant to be, and that Charles saved him from a life of that.
How many times has a weakened, on-the-ropes hero made a miraculous come back in the last moment for victory?
I get it though, it's a bit of a flaw but not enough to detract from the movie. there are other greater flaws too, but none take away what the movie has.
I'll also agree with the sentiment that the duality of the clone vs Logan could have been highlighted better. Like explicitly point out that that is what Logan was always meant to be, and that Charles saved him from a life of that.
ffejeromdiks
Banned
Easy, evil Logan wakes up from the headshot with amnesia. Honestly thought this would be a post credits scene, as an adamantium bullet to the head didnt work on wolverine previously, why would it now?
A small gripe (that's happened in most of the X-Men movies), but Logan is supposed to weigh like 300+ lbs with all that metal on him. I was kinda hoping we'd get more physical "jokes" about it when people try to move him or lift him. Was totally expecting it to happen when the kids were lifting him on the pulley. Something like, "Man, how much do you weigh??" when he gets to the top and he makes a snide remark about the body full of metal.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
But he didn't win. It wasn't a miraculous comeback. He fucked up and he died for it.
I think maybe this is why I don't feel like trying to flesh out X-24 is all that good an idea, because that notion feels like it's already very well represented and spelled out in the film as it is. I can't imagine anyone watching Logan and not getting that message about Logan's worse nature, and Charles' positive effect on him.
Trying to send that same message but with X-24 I think would have ended up feeling like it was really belaboring the point. So instead of going "X-24 felt kinda perfunctory" we woulda been like "Jesus, we get it, he's the Logan that Logan would have been! We just HEARD Charles tell him that shit in the water tower, ugh."
If the X-24 fights had just been better choreographed and staged, so that the violence ITSELF told a story about these two Logans, that probably would have fixed most of the problems. But instead, the fights between the two were samey and not particularly interesting, visually. So we're left wanting.
Because this "adamantium bullet" blew half his fucking head off, and this clone doesn't have Wolverine's healing factor without that green shit.
I don't think this is the exact same adamantium bullet from Origins. This thing blows heads up like a dream from Nick Frost in Hot Fuzz
More_Badass
Member
God no. Just because some people dont get the notion doesnt mean a movie would be better by blatantly spelling it out for everyone
As it has been mentioned already, X24 is not a perfect clone. He needs green juice to sustain his healing factor.
It was stated quite clearly in Laura's file that she only got adamantium in two sites...
There was one thing where someone kicked (or punched?) Logan in the head and there was a metal clang and he was taken aback by how much it hurt him to hit Logan.
Actually in my mind ideally a scene between Dr Rice and X-24 would better establish what pathos potentially drives both of those characters as opposed to bluntly propping up the symbolic duality in dialogue. It would imbue both Dr Rice and X-24 with the same moments that make Xavier and Logan so palpably human in their own scenes. So by the time that final confrontation does occur we at least have a baseline of understanding of their characters.
-Plasma Reus-
Service guarantees member status
Do some people on the internet watch movies to point out 'flaws'.
'This movie isnt good because they never showed us how Logan went to the toilet'
'This movie isnt good because they never showed us how Logan went to the toilet'
*writes this down for my next MovieSins video*
Isn't the actual answer to this "who gives a shit about magic-bullet precedents set by Origins, this movie doesn't care about continuity"?
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Well yeah, that's kinda what I'm getting at in the post you're quoting. The continuity is fuzzy at best.
The filmmakers really didn't care much about continuity. It wasn't very important to them at all. I don't know why this is a sticking point.
I needed to catch up on some recent releases and had myself a mini Butt-Numb-A-Thon Thursday where I saw The LEGO Batman Movie (2nd viewing, actually), Get Out, John Wick: Chapter 2 and Logan in that order. It was a glorious experience.
They did Wolvie so very right in this one, can't wait to see it again!
No awkward laughs at my screening. Everyone was digging it and seemed to be getting it. I did have to tell some ahole behind me not to put his feet up on the seat next to my head though. Typical people at a movie theater bullshit. Otherwise, couldn't have been a better time.
They did Wolvie so very right in this one, can't wait to see it again!
No awkward laughs at my screening. Everyone was digging it and seemed to be getting it. I did have to tell some ahole behind me not to put his feet up on the seat next to my head though. Typical people at a movie theater bullshit. Otherwise, couldn't have been a better time.
I'm surprised by a lot of the negative comments in this thread. I thought the movie was great and didn't mind any of the clone stuff considering cloning was one of the plot points we knew before going in to see it. My theater seemed to really enjoy the film, some applause at the end as well. I'll go as far to say it's in my top 5-6 superhero movie list.
The only time I remember it being referenced was in "The Wolverine" when he was fighting the Yakuza on the train and the dude punched him and you heard the "ring" and Logan gave him the look of, "You know you done fucked up, right?".
Nah, I didn't mean he came back and won, I was just using the trope in context of not really requiring the green stuff to be able to have a cool action fight scene at the end. He could've just been told to not exert himself, he does, and he succumbs to it.
I was just saying movies does stuff like that - doesn't need to explicitly do something to explain something else.
I'm not asking for it to be blatantly spelled out, just highlighted a bit better. I never thought of it that way, until someone pointed it out. Subtext can be subtle or blatant, or somewhere in between. I figure a few notches towards the latter be a bit better, at least for me. They certainly spent other areas blatantly explaining things that didn't need as much.
But it's moot, because now that I do think of it that way, it improved the movie for me.
I'm conditioned to accept clones I guess. Common comic book staple, but this was an excellent execution of the formula... I wasn't disappointed in it. One downside is it doesn't do anything to help alleviate the argument regarding most comic book films having weak villain choices. A clone can easily come off as uninspired, but I just didn't feel that here. It's because the film is so character driven and one of Logan's best antagonists is himself so why not just have a physical manifestation of that? lol.
BigJonsson
Member
Somehow his healing power turned back on and he is as good as new! Or someone digs up his body and fixes his power.......
I doubt Jackman comes back but that's how they'd do it
But they showed us how Charles went to the toilet.
If only one of the characters in Citizen Kane had said "Oh wow, Rosebud represents his lost youth and inncocence."
Wasn't Logan old as shit? He was already like close to 40 in WW2 (Wolverine movie). Like 100+ years or so? So even when the adamantium is poisonous, he lived pretty long because of his healing ability. Most mutants have abilities but age normally.
If x23 has only adamantium claws, she should live pretty long before ahe gets seriously sick.
Logans excessive alcohol drinking and smoking probably didn't help.
If x23 has only adamantium claws, she should live pretty long before ahe gets seriously sick.
Logans excessive alcohol drinking and smoking probably didn't help.
I absolutely loved it but there was one thing I think they missed - I wish Laura had taken his dog tags.
He was about 200 by the time of this movie.
-Plasma Reus-
Service guarantees member status
One addition I would have adored is if the moment when the kids are doing his chops, they actually fit him into a cosplay outfit of the yellow spandex variety. It would be legitimised, because they are kids, and they are fans, and it would look ridiculous, and it would be perfectly acceptable, and it would work and be appropriate.
That's a pretty good idea
Chie Satonaka
Member
Just got back.
We cried a little. ; ;
Great movie.
We cried a little. ; ;
Great movie.
Mark Kermode's review.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRBZIO13JXA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRBZIO13JXA
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
Disappointed that Laura only used her foot blade once.
I think the expo dump is vital towards establishing an empathetic connection between Logan and Gabriela and, by extension, Laura. Now he understands the stakes: not only is Laura a young mutant in need, but she is a product of the reincarnation of Weapon X, the same program that created Logan.
I really liked this movie until the final scenes, which felt over the top and completely unearned. That being Logan's death scene and his burial. This could have benefited from toning down the scene and allowing the actors involved to be more low key in their acting (and I believe that Daphne Keen would have been up to the task).
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