Well it's not even true that they don't want you to do two puzzles to get a shrine. I can think of a bunch of shrines which have puzzles from a quest leading to the shrine and the shrine still having a puzzle. So it's not a hard and fast rule. I don't mind blessing shrines when I solve a substantial overworld puzzle like the 7 heroine statues or the labyrinths though. What disappoints me is when I feel the puzzle wasn't that challenging. The one where you follow the champion statues in the desert was a bit too simple. And I -just- chanced upon a blessing shrine today which wasn't connected to a shrine quest (maybe I didn't get it yet?), just from exploring and then bombing a suspicious area on a cliff. Would have definitely preferred a puzzle there.
Worse are the tests of strength. Just pains in the ass.
I dunno, I really enjoyed some puzzles, but overall BotW is a disappointment on that front. A lot of the puzzle shrines felt like tutorials for a bigger puzzle that never came and I often got to the end saying "that was it?!" There were a handful of shrines that were really good. I wish they would release DLC packs of good puzzle shrines that increase the complexity of the puzzles.
If you're counting things which are only used a few times then how is this a criticism against BotW? Every Zelda game does this, only it's even worse in previous Zelda games where the "use this item here!" cues were even more obvious, there were rarely alternate solutions, and lots of items often had no practical use outside of solving an extremely specific problem, unlike the runes which are all multifaceted.
Never said they couldn't do it better, like the TP Spinner being mostly only for its dungeon was disappointing. The appeal was in that it was something new every time.
Even discounting the equipment progression, the dungeons in BOTW have the same 2 useless enemies in them, probably designed that way because you can do them in any order with the same equipment.
That's some pretty severe hyperbole. So it was used at least 4 times throughout a gigantic game, and that's a problem? I wonder how many times you had to shoot arrows into eye switches, or light torches on fire, or hookshot to specific looking surfaces, etc. in OoT or other Zelda games?
The iron boots having two distinct uses is still fairly weak compared to how many uses the runes have. Pretty much all of the mechanics in this game have had multiple uses in my experience.
Cryonis
lifting things out of water, allowing you to walk across water, allowing you to climb waterfalls, breaking ice blocks that are tossed at you, lifting gates and such, blocking yourself from enemies, stopping & guiding rolling balls, being used to stop flowing water.
Stasis
freezing any number of things to get at them, cross them, etc., building up hits to send things flying or out of the way, freezing things that are hitting switches periodically to make windows for yourself, freezing lasers to get past, stopping enemies, freezing switches after stepping on them as a replacement for placing something heavy on them.
Magnesis
being used to retrieve items under water or objects high up out of sight, being used to make bridges or open doors, being used to attack enemies or knock them over, being used to push objects out of the way with other big objects, being used to grab keys that are behind bars and bring them over to you, being used to move metal objects near enemies in a thunderstorm.
Obviously that's not even everything, and I didn't feel like including all of the remote bomb uses, but it's still a heck of a lot. The main problem is probably that the game is so open-ended that there are multiple solutions for most puzzles, so you can usually rely on some main-stays and don't really have to experiment, but there are plenty of options afforded by the way the runes work and what they can do.
yes they do a good variety of things with the runes, and they had to considering there were so many shrines +4 main dungeons
re:Iron Boots. its still only one item that got a lot of use in its respective (very old) game, but the options that it opened up when you acquire them was at least a sense of progression.
The upgraded runes were completely unecessary afaik.
Worse are the tests of strength. Just pains in the ass.
I dunno, I really enjoyed some puzzles, but overall BotW is a disappointment on that front. A lot of the puzzle shrines felt like tutorials for a bigger puzzle that never came and I often got to the end saying "that was it?!" There were a handful of shrines that were really good. I wish they would release DLC packs of good puzzle shrines that increase the complexity of the puzzles.
Finished this two nights ago, started HZD (which is great too, but very different in what it prioritizes), but am still playing this one more. Something about it just keeps drawing me back and revealing new things. That's crazy after 100+ hours over 3 weeks of daily play.
Even discounting the equipment progression, the dungeons in BOTW have the same 2 useless enemies in them, probably designed that way because you can do them in any order with the same equipment.
No that's definitely not the reason why. I would argue that the Divine Beasts aren't even "dungeons" as we know them. They are unique instants separate from the open world, yes, and they have interiors, and they have their own map. That creates the "feeling" of a dungeon, but they're really not a replacement for a traditional Zelda dungeon. They are a brand new thing which is honestly pretty cool. The enemies placed in them fit thematically. I agree they are boring enemies and it would have been interesting if they had unique guardian style enemies which matched the theme of the Divine Beast though. But that aside, I think the Beasts are a good concept where you have to think of how the entire unit fits together and how to manipulate the parts to your benefit. It's one giant puzzle that is also a giant toybox. I really like them.
Never said they couldn't do it better, like the TP Spinner being mostly only for its dungeon was disappointing. The appeal was in that it was something new every time.
I guess technically even the most bullshit gimmick is "something new". Doesn't explain why the hero of time does not simply go to a weapons dealer and buys a bloody bow, but has to fuck around with a slingshot first and only gets the equipment, once he's been through a dungeon full of asinine puzzles, find Ding the o ly slingshot/bow/whatever in the whole game world in a conveniently placed chest.
Fuck item gating. We've got about two decades worth of Zelda games pulling of all the same shit all over again with zero innovation to the formula. If they absolutely must rely on item gimmicks, they can still bake them into the dungeons, where they're supposed to be used. No reason to pollute the "overworld" with bullshit like rails for a sliding cock or ice that can't be melted by fire but needs an effin wrecking ball. Foe combat use, those poorly contrived things handled like ass.
But that's one more reason why Zelda as a series has stuck in the early 90s. Overused, overlooking concepts. What's to say Zelda even needs dungeons? Why aren't those small areas freely accessible from the overworld with specific puzzles, rather than gated and separately loaded asinine constructs that make no sense whatsoever for anything else than shoving puzzles down the player's throat. The shrines are a half step. Freely accessible from the overworld, but still separately loaded and so distinct from the rest of 5he game, that you hardly stop to think k where those moronic places are and why the heck somebody build those puzzles.
No that's definitely not the reason why. I would argue that the Divine Beasts aren't even "dungeons" as we know them. They are unique instants separate from the open world, yes, and they have interiors, and they have their own map. That creates the "feeling" of a dungeon, but they're really not a replacement for a traditional Zelda dungeon. They are a brand new thing which is honestly pretty cool. The enemies placed in them fit thematically. I agree they are boring enemies and it would have been interesting if they had unique guardian style enemies which matched the theme of the Divine Beast though. But that aside, I think the Beasts are a good concept where you have to think of how the entire unit fits together and how to manipulate the parts to your benefit. It's one giant puzzle that is also a giant toybox. I really like them.
Doesn't explain why the hero of time does not simply go to a weapons dealer and buys a bloody bow, but has to fuck around with a slingshot first and only gets the equipment, once he's been through a dungeon full of asinine puzzles,
why are they asinine? why does realism matter in Zelda? You can nitpick hundreds of inconsistencies regarding this in BOTW too, but its a cartoony videogame so im not sure what your point is.
ie. People know Links there to save the world in BOTW but they dont do everything they can to help you (here take this weapon that will break pretty quickly, and nothing else). Its Zelda...
Yep, it did. And they had the grace to give the player that ability after the tutorial. Its an integral part of the world traversal. Without it, the vermiculite of the world would be a hassle. This way, height can be converted into distance, which is about half the reward for climbing something.
I floated up a metal plate, stasisted into mid air and then walked across because I had a hard time doing the puzzle the "proper" way. I love having this toolset
Yep, it did. And they had the grace to give the player that ability after the tutorial. Its an integral part of the world traversal. Without it, the vermiculite of the world would be a hassle. This way, height can be converted into distance, which is about half the reward for climbing something.
And still beat every single dungeon and shrine in a any Zelda game, simply by merits of being acknowledged by the world's inhabitants and having a function other than guarding the only bow in Hyrule that the hero of time can use.
The weapon and armour variety is a fundamental appeal of the game. Its largely what they reward you with for opening chests and crafting+exploring etc. Using bad weapons intentionally, theyre just going to break, and do little damage to tougher enemies which sounds repetitive.
I dont know if there is a real solution if you want to play that way, other than waiting for the Hard Mode DLC?
I agree, the unique items provided new kinds of puzzles every dungeon, and often tied into the context/story. I started rolling my eyes the 20th time I saw a gate with water under it.... gee I wonder what the solution is.
There wasnt really any time I thought of going back somewhere later with new tools, other than like, the temperature stuff.
Never really camped at a fire either, since stalfos were kind of super easy to just ignore.
And still beat every single dungeon and shrine in a any Zelda game, simply by merits of being acknowledged by the world's inhabitants and having a function other than guarding the only bow in Hyrule that the hero of time can use.
No that's definitely not the reason why. I would argue that the Divine Beasts aren't even "dungeons" as we know them. They are unique instants separate from the open world, yes, and they have interiors, and they have their own map. That creates the "feeling" of a dungeon, but they're really not a replacement for a traditional Zelda dungeon. They are a brand new thing which is honestly pretty cool. The enemies placed in them fit thematically. I agree they are boring enemies and it would have been interesting if they had unique guardian style enemies which matched the theme of the Divine Beast though. But that aside, I think the Beasts are a good concept where you have to think of how the entire unit fits together and how to manipulate the parts to your benefit. It's one giant puzzle that is also a giant toybox. I really like them.
Eh, Beasts are more like a single room with 5 small unrelated puzzles you can do in any order, though describing some of the terminals as puzzles is being generous. It doesn't help that the gimmick of 3 out of the 4 beasts are very similar.
They are definitely good, but they don't replace the grandiose dungeon designs from TP and SS where you feel a sense of progression and interconnectedness of the puzzles and integration of the puzzles with a strong theme. Probably one of the best examples is Lakebed Temple from Twilight Princess, where the central room is a giant puzzle and you have to solve sections of the dungeon and manipulate the dungeon itself to solve the overall dungeon. That's something it felt like they should have gone for with BotW. They really need that feeling of the puzzles being integrated into a theme and huge connected puzzles. Instead most of the puzzles feel like stations in an activity room.
And still beat every single dungeon and shrine in a any Zelda game, simply by merits of being acknowledged by the world's inhabitants and having a function other than guarding the only bow in Hyrule that the hero of time can use.
I'd rather 'nitpick' how much the series has been stuck in a dead end it dug itself into at the start of the 90s due to the asinine design choices that where ok back then but have since been shown to be obsolete by more naturally flowing RPGs.
Very succinctly argued that Zelda before BotW has in fact not been a puzzle game stuck in its early 90s way, trying to be more of an epic RPG, but failing because the devs never were able to break out of their backwards game template. A piece of music really makes up for the fact that you're stuck in a small forest path walled in by solid tree textures as much in 1998, as in 2006 and 2011, where the texture wall made room for small ridges and some trees masking the invisible walls all around you.
I'd rather 'nitpick' how much the series has been stuck in a dead end it dug itself into at the start of the 90s due to the asinine design choices that where ok back then but have since been shown to be obsolete by more naturally flowing RPGs.
you can, but I never suggested it should stay the same. Its possible to have some of the things which people liked about the older games with the new Open World style.
I feel that BotW makes a very strong argument for having a fixed toolset you unlock early in the game. It's something I wasn't totally comfortable with, and I felt was poorly handled in ALBW because the rental system was neither here nor there. But the way BotW does it works really well. The tools you have in the game are all about manipulating the world around you, so there are a bunch of things they come up with throughout the game which use the same tool or a mixture of tools, but in original ways. This is something Zelda was somewhat handicapped by because of how specific the tools in the past were.
I'm actually okay with never seeing a return to gated items again, but I would love to see larger themed dungeons return using this style. For example, you could build an entire dungeon around puzzles that involve levers and pulleys, and you could build another dungeon around a pinball mechanic. These are ideas which shrines use in BotW, but an entire dungeon that has increasingly complicated sets of puzzles themed around such ideas would be great. A dungeon doesn't need a unique new tool to have unique themed puzzles.
100% agree with this. I was also in love and at the same time a bit disappointed with the dungeons.
I loved that you could manipulate them, but would´ve wished for more articulate parts. Instead of only moving the trunk of the elephant, articulate the legs, tail and make everything accessible. Set this as the gimmick for this dungeon and go with different concepts for the rest. Rito could´ve been about creating wind currents to get through the dungeons gliding or transport items around, maybe turning the whole dungeon around (it´s a bird, so full freedom of movement in 360º would suit it well), Goron could´ve used fire and lava to make some mechanisms turn, raise and lower lava and platform levels as the beast submerges and surfaces from the volcano...Instead of making all dungeons share the same gimmick and have small differences relating to each one´s element make them more different and fully develop different concepts in each one. Dungeons showed that they were designed so they could be completed in any order, but this dragged all of them down, which is something jarring as the rest of the game was designed with this same principle but implemented it much better.
Also, all of them sharing the "activate X terminals" structure was a bit boring, I would´ve preffered if each of them went in a different direction and required other things, like having a main objective for one dungeon (like in SS´s Ancient Cistern where you just needed to manipulate water to access the central chamber). Having all dungeons consisting of small independent puzzles was a bad decission.
That's some pretty severe hyperbole. So it was used at least 4 times throughout a gigantic game, and that's a problem? I wonder how many times you had to shoot arrows into eye switches, or light torches on fire, or hookshot to specific looking surfaces, etc. in OoT or other Zelda games?
The iron boots having two distinct uses is still fairly weak compared to how many uses the runes have. Pretty much all of the mechanics in this game have had multiple uses in my experience.
Cryonis
lifting things out of water, allowing you to walk across water, allowing you to climb waterfalls, breaking ice blocks that are tossed at you, lifting gates and such, blocking yourself from enemies, stopping & guiding rolling balls, being used to stop flowing water.
Stasis
freezing any number of things to get at them, cross them, etc., building up hits to send things flying or out of the way, freezing things that are hitting switches periodically to make windows for yourself, freezing lasers to get past, stopping enemies, freezing switches after stepping on them as a replacement for placing something heavy on them.
Magnesis
being used to retrieve items under water or objects high up out of sight, being used to make bridges or open doors, being used to attack enemies or knock them over, being used to push objects out of the way with other big objects, being used to grab keys that are behind bars and bring them over to you, being used to move metal objects near enemies in a thunderstorm.
Obviously that's not even everything, and I didn't feel like including all of the remote bomb uses, but it's still a heck of a lot. The main problem is probably that the game is so open-ended that there are multiple solutions for most puzzles, so you can usually rely on some main-stays and don't really have to experiment, but there are plenty of options afforded by the way the runes work and what they can do.
I disagree with your view on the iron boots, in fact I replayed TP a few months ago and was surprised at the many uses they gave to the Iron Boots:
Walk underwater (which allowed you to use items, push/pull stuff, fight...)
Walk on magnetized surfaces
Prevent being blown away by strong winds
Give you poise to face heavy enemies (like Gorons)
It was surprising how a returning and simple item like this could get so many different uses, specially when comparing it to other new items like the flail and spinner. I´m sure that with enough thought any item could be made to work and it should be focused in interacting and manipulating the world. For example Crionis should´ve worked on ground as well, but instead of creating ice pilars it could´ve freezed the floor, so anything would slide on it. You could use it to make enemies lose balance, push heavy objects, shield surf (imagine how awesome it would´ve been to shield surf down a mountain while you created ice as you go!)...A Gale Boomerang - Wind Waker Wand mix could´ve been a nice addition, allowing you to change wind direction (to move stuff around or spread fire in a controlled direction), pick distant items, stun enemies or push them away, clear or create storms, activate certain types of switches, blow doors open, clear mist/poison gas, move far away stuff (like making apples fall from a tree so enemies go check them out)...
I hope they continue with this trend for items and give us more ways to interact with the world.
The whole concept of shrines is kind of shit. Puzzles in Zelda work best when they are a part of a bigger whole (a dungeon), this way they can ramp up, this way they can provide a sense of progression through dungeon-wide puzzles, this way they can be broken up with combat encounters for better variety and pacing.
Shrines in contrast are isolated pockets of nothing, really. You solve a little puzzle to get the equivalent of a heart piece and then you are on your way to find another isolated pocket of nothing. They are over so fast, it feels like you're doing the first puzzle of an early Zelda dungeon over and over again. There is no satisfaction in any of this, this shit is always over before it could start to get interesting. Same for the shitty divine beasts. This is the Anti-Zelda experience.
Yeah, I just finished the game a few hours ago and had similar thoughts on the ending.
I was really expecting to find Zelda up there in the castle, and have her assist you in the fight, just like you have companions for all the beast battles. Then when you get the light arrows she is still nowhere to be seen. Why isn't she riding alongside you or something similar. Same thing with the champions, I did expect a big laser blast but also was hoping for a little more. Like them all joining you in spirit and using their abilities... Or actually piloting the beasts closer to the castle. How insane would the Beast Ganon location been if it was surrounded by the 4 beasts, assisting you. Might not make sense technically lol, but after a whole game building relationships and recapturing memories, I wasn't expecting the final fight to feel so lonesome. I thought that if I rushed to Ganon at the very start it'd be like that, but if I completed all the beasts then the final fight would be this big teamwork takedown. I think they were going for that but fell short.
Also, the credits,
where's my panning shots of all the towns are everyone rejoicing?? Even the credits music wasn't as epic as usual. Instead of a big composed medley, it was just different songs played in succession. Odd that the game has so much attention to detail, but they couldn't make a nice credits scene.
I loved the soundtrack otherwise though so it's like the only part where it let me down.
Small marks on an outstanding game obviously, these things didn't sour my experience The game made true and went beyond many other fantasies.
Sums up my thoughts on the ending too. I'd also add that the fight mechanics themselves were disappointing. You're given all these tools and abilities to use throughout the game,
but I had an easier time beating Ganon 1 entirely with flurry attacks and damage elixirs.
That said none of it was bad enough to undo the majesty of the previous 100+ hours. Best Zelda game yet, but more importantly it's about the only open world game I've ever played from start to finish without any boredom creeping in.
region. I liked it. I was expecting something kinda boring based on some of the impressions, but it was decent. I do hope that the other dungeons don't rely on the same premise though. That would be kinda silly. I really miss treasure being worthwhile in the dungeons. Almost every single one was useless fodder.
I'd rather 'nitpick' how much the series has been stuck in a dead end it dug itself into at the start of the 90s due to the asinine design choices that where ok back then but have since been shown to be obsolete by more naturally flowing RPGs.
Very succinctly argued that Zelda before BotW has in fact not been a puzzle game stuck in its early 90s way, trying to be more of an epic RPG, but failing because the devs never were able to break out of their backwards game template. A piece of music really makes up for the fact that you're stuck in a small forest path walled in by solid tree textures as much in 1998, as in 2006 and 2011, where the texture wall made room for small ridges and some trees masking the invisible walls all around you.
No fun allowed? OoT was a great game at its time just as BotW is now. Sure in 20 years time BotW will look poor but that does not reduce the feelings it invoked.
If that's the one east of Mount Lanayru yes, the quest giver is in Hateno. But it could also be the one in the southernmost part of the Akkala region, next to the Zora region. There's a hidden Shrine behind a bombable wall in the part with water and strong wind gusts, and for what I know it's not bound to a quest
I really like how the systems in the game work together. Like
I'm doing the Big Camel beast ... lost track of a energy ball. Soooo I used the one I still had, dropped all my metal and made a chain! #fuckthatcamel #BSanimemovingboss. That dungeon and boss were annoying as shit. felt more like luck than anything.
Zora's beast and story was a lot more touching, interesting and engaging as well as clear. But the Gerudo story had a much better voice actress >_>
The best part is that it's not just shrines. It's everything in the game. From the combat encounters, the quests, the shrines, the divine beasts, the major side content in the game like finding the memories or the Lost Woods. Even how to approach climbing some of the towers. This is a game where simply playing the game is its own reward.
I'm on the hunt for my last memory and it's been such a cool feeling pinpointing bits of the picture to the typography and world map. The game creates so many awesome experiences and moments. When I play I feel very connected to the world it self and link. Thankfully this is not an mmo and does end in a sense.
Look, the bottom line is that this is Nintendo's take on open world design. In that concept, item gating doesn't make sense. Weapon collecting doesn't make sense. With the traversal tools available I would say even long traditional Zelda dungeons don't make sense.
What does make sense is exploration. Crafting. Emerging gameplay. Experimentation. Open system driven enemy encounters.
That doesn't mean to say that all these are now mainstays of Zelda. For all we know, the next one might not even be open world and could go back to the traditional template.
But for BOTW, all of Nintendo's choices have been justified and most of the suggestions for "improvements" I have seen here would actually make the game worse.
Content wise, sure I would have like some more unique boss encounters and a more varied visual style for the shrines, but with the amount of content on offer here... come on. There's only so much you can cram into a game within a single development cycle.
Even the credits music wasn't as epic as usual. Instead of a big composed medley, it was just different songs played in succession. Odd that the game has so much attention to detail, but they couldn't make a nice credits scene.
, ohh well, will go to do the first one soon.