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[moggio]

I'm leaving in a few weeks to tour the UK, too soon to cause me any grief right?

It's a shit-hole now and will be a shit-hole when you arrive.

Have fun!

 

[jimbobsmells]

This line from the first official response by the EU seems like a pretty major point, and exactly why the EU holds all the cards right now:

should Britain seek to negotiate any free trade deals with other countries while it is still an EU member state, there will be no future discussion of a deal with the union.

Basically, wait until you've actually left the union in 2019 to START talks with other countries, or you won't get any deal at all.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...icle-50-takes-tough-line-on-transitional-deal

 

[Staab]

Is there any reason why we also have to leave Euratom too? (beyond the obvious)

I thought that was separate from the EU, but someone in here prob knows better than me and can explain

You're right, Euratom is legally distinct from the EU.

The UK decided to leave Euratom because, albeit independent, the institution relies for its functioning on EU bodies such as the Commission, the Council of Ministers and the Court of Justice, but the UK Government still considers the nuclear industry of strategic importance for the country, and will seek alternative arrangements to continue civil nuclear cooperation on safeguards, safety and trade with Europe.

 

[Xando]

This line from the first official response by the EU seems like a pretty major point, and exactly why the EU holds all the cards right now:

Basically, wait until you've actually left the union in 2019 to START talks with other countries, or you won't get any deal at all.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...icle-50-takes-tough-line-on-transitional-deal

Obvious from the start.

Until the UK left it has to follow EU law

 

[TimmmV]

I didn't think people like this still existed.

My MP is one too (and one of the prominent Labour Leave MPs)

He's also refuses to reply to my emails about his (lack of) support for EU residents in the UK, and has also sent out mass emails to people who supported 'clicktivist' campaigns basically telling them to shut up

Spoiler

Hes a prick and I hate him

You're right, Euratom is legally distinct from the EU.

The UK decided to leave Euratom because, albeit independent, the institution relies for its functioning on EU bodies such as the Commission, the Council of Ministers and the Court of Justice, but the UK Government still considers the nuclear industry of strategic importance for the country, and will seek alternative arrangements to continue civil nuclear cooperation on safeguards, safety and trade with Europe.

Cheers!

Still seems odd to just leave, instead of the membership of Euratom being a discussion point after invoking article 50, but then again I guess that would be consistent with everything else going on at the moment

 

[oti]

I'm leaving in a few weeks to tour the UK, too soon to cause me any grief right?

Don't buy Toblerone!!

 

[Hippolnareff]

First page of the Article 50 letter:

That first page is the biggest pile of BS I've read this year (and there's been a lot).

"The people" didn't vote, 51% did. Many of them show utter contempt for the European Union or just Mainland Europeans in general. I also despise how the letter pins the blame on the "people of the UK", whilst it's true those who voted Leave played a huge part in this, we all know the current government had the last say.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

Obvious from the start.

Until the UK left it has to follow EU law

'Member when leavers said the UK could start to negotiate deals after triggering A50?

Good times.

 

[Xando]

'Member when leavers said the UK could start to negotiate deals after triggering A50?

Good times.

It's the same with freedom of movement.

Until march 29th 2019 you will be able to leave the UK or enter it without a border

 

[travisbickle]

This line from the first official response by the EU seems like a pretty major point, and exactly why the EU holds all the cards right now:

Basically, wait until you've actually left the union in 2019 to START talks with other countries, or you won't get any deal at all.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...icle-50-takes-tough-line-on-transitional-deal

It reads as though the remaining EU member states have the political future of Ireland in their hands too, voting for whether there will be a border between the two countries.

 

[Linkstrikesback]

I'm leaving in a few weeks to tour the UK, too soon to cause me any grief right?

That depends. How brown are you and how good is your English accent?

 

[D4Danger]

It reads as though the remaining EU member states have the political future of Ireland in their hands too, voting for whether their will be a border between the two countries.

I mean they do but I'm sure they don't want to wade into that. Ireland being an island it's easy enough to let that one slide with some sort of exemption that could be agreed on both sides.

That depends. How brown are you and how good is your English accent?

give it a rest.

 

[Linkstrikesback]

I mean they do but I'm sure they don't want to wade into that. Ireland being an island it's easy enough to let that one slide with some sort of exemption that could be agreed on both sides.

There either has to be a hard border between Northern Ireland and the republic or between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK. It can't work any other way or people would just around the borders by going via Ireland.

 

[Chinner]

That depends. How brown are you and how good is your English accent?

Unfortunately this is the future we're treading towards with the rise of English and white nationalism.

 

[Linkstrikesback]

give it a rest.

Maybe I should have said that to the dark skinned fellow I passed at a bus stop on the way to work this morning​ getting yelled various things along the lines of 'get the fuck out' at by a bunch for pricks drinking.

 

[hodgy100]

Those telling people to get together miss that our current government isn't doing anything to facilitate that, their stance puts them against people that voted to remain and they do nothing to meet remain and leave voters in the middle despite the referendum being very very close.

if the government were saying we will leave the EU but try to remain in the single market and ensure it was easy for uk and EU citizens to carry on their lives in either places then there wouldnt be such a pushback.

 

[theaface]

give it a rest.

Why should they? Does the 40% spike in racist/xenophobic hate crimes in the wake of the referendum make you uncomfortable? Sorry, but we've moved past the point of hypotheticals here. It's happening.

 

[Rush_Khan]

I can't believe they're just gonna ignore 48% of the entire population. A major downside to democracy.

 

[Carl2291]

I'm leaving in a few weeks to tour the UK, too soon to cause me any grief right?

You'll be fine, because despite what certain people on GAF would have you believe, the vast majority of British people aren't racist pricks.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

This line from the first official response by the EU seems like a pretty major point, and exactly why the EU holds all the cards right now:

Basically, wait until you've actually left the union in 2019 to START talks with other countries, or you won't get any deal at all.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...icle-50-takes-tough-line-on-transitional-deal

To be honest this seems like a really poor way of going about things. A country realistically can't leave behind trade agreements and have a period of time with absolutely nothing.

 

[theaface]

You'll be fine, because despite what certain people on GAF would have you believe, the vast majority of British people aren't racist pricks.

Which certain people are these? To make it easier, show me one gaffer who believes the vast majority of British people are racist.

To be honest this seems like a really poor way of going about things. A country realistically can't leave behind trade agreements and have a period of time with absolutely nothing.

What's the alternative? We're either a member of the EU or we're not. As it happens, we're a member for 2 more years and during that time, we're obligated to follow all of its rules and laws. Any other EU member country can't unilaterally carve out its own trade deals with the rest of the world in isolation, so why should we be able to? None of this should come as a surprise and was known from day 0. The EU should be commended for being remarkably clear and consistent in its measured position so far.

Yeah i don't really understand that either unless it's the EU just trying to be dicks. I understand why the rule is there for members but it shouldn't apply to those who notified they plan to leave.

Again, we're either in or we're out, how can we be a halfway house? Especially when you factor in the fact that there exists the possibility to rescind our notification to withdraw. Of course it's at the 'not happening' end of the unlikely spectrum but you can't ignore that the possibility exists for us to say we're leaving, look to carve out trade deals elsewhere and then say actually, no we're out. It'd be a farce.

People need to accept that EU protecting its own interests does not amount to punishment of the UK. It's pure pragmatism at play.

 

[suedester]

To be honest this seems like a really poor way of going about things. A country realistically can't leave behind trade agreements and have a period of time with absolutely nothing.

Yeah i don't really understand that either unless it's the EU just trying to be dicks. I understand why the rule is there for members but it shouldn't apply to those who notified they plan to leave.

 

[JonnyDBrit]

To be honest this seems like a really poor way of going about things. A country realistically can't leave behind trade agreements and have a period of time with absolutely nothing.

That's what the WTO is for. And it's quite 'realistic' given the political circumstances, however undesirable it may be.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

You'll be fine, because despite what certain people on GAF would have you believe, the vast majority of British people aren't racist pricks.

The majority of the voting public just supported and voted for something that didn't even bother hide its racist rhetoric and increased racial tensions.

The fuck are you talking about?

 

[CTLance]

You'll be fine, because despite what certain people on GAF would have you believe, the vast majority of British people aren't racist pricks.

 

[kmag]

I mean they do but I'm sure they don't want to wade into that. Ireland being an island it's easy enough to let that one slide with some sort of exemption that could be agreed on both sides.



give it a rest.

WTO members have to enforce customs borders. The UK and EU need to secure their external borders even if they have an FTA.

Ireland is obliged by EU treaty to enforce with customs agents.

See http://data.parliament.uk/writtenev...-with-the-republic-of-ireland/oral/46648.html

for two ex-EU customs officials view of it. It's extremely complicated.

Here's a flavour

Dr Alasdair McDonnell: Could I bring it back to something that was discussed here with Jim, my colleague? I do not know how much you know but you probably have a very detailed knowledge of it. In the food industry, one of the benefits of the European Union over the last number of years was that Ireland became one food processing operation. Food, as we talked about with milk, moves around. Beef, for instance, may come from south to north. Lamb may go from north to south. Pigs come from south to north for processing. Milk goes all over the place. Some of the milk, in fact, moves across the border five times because it can be produced in the north and then collected into one big collection point south of the border. As Jim suggested, it can then be moved to his local factory, back into the north again, and it can be part‑processed there. It can go back to the south for further processing and all the rest of it. Is there any solution to that? Is there any way that that can work other than by building vastly expensive processing units north and south?

Michael Lux: There are customs rules that allow all this to happen, but I have told you that for the last five years I have been an adviser for companies. My advice to these companies would be to streamline their processes and to avoid having the same goods in different stages move over the border five times, because the cost of doing all the formalities would be so great that it is cheaper to make sure that the goods only cross the border once or twice. That would be my advice. The logistics have to be reconsidered because, each time the goods cross the border, you have to make the necessary customs declaration.

You may have your own staff to do that. I am always saying to companies, "You need at least two people doing the customs business, if you do it yourself, because one of them may be ill or on holiday and then you will have nobody to do it." Alternatively, you can use a service provider that is a logistics company. Depending on the complexity, they will charge you between €20 and €80 per declaration; so the cost will increase enormously just due to the fact that, each time you are doing something that involves a crossing of the border, it creates a cost. That will be part of the cost of the milk and, later, of the cheese, and I cannot imagine that anybody will continue these practices. It would just be too costly.

Lady Hermon: Can I seek clarification on that point? When you say that you do not imagine anyone would continue with these practices, are you implying that the practices whereby milk is gathered from the Republic of Ireland, taken into Northern Ireland, processed in Northern Ireland and then distributed throughout the island of Ireland will be discontinued because people cannot afford to pay for the documentation?

Michael Lux: In the example you mentioned, there are three customs declarations involved. In his example, there are five customs declarations involved. Each customs declaration has a cost, so maybe you are lucky and you manage to keep the costs down to €20 but this will be added to the price. This can all happen under duty suspension, so you do not have to pay duties, but you have to make all these declarations and they come with a cost.

Lady Hermon: That is really quite shocking.

Dr Alasdair McDonnell: We are not getting rid of red tape; we are creating red tape.

Michael Lux: Yes. My approach is to say, "How can we reduce the red tape?" but the principle of customs declarations will remain, even though we have the possibility of making simplified declarations and then, on a monthly basis, a periodic declaration. Sure, all these simplifications are available, but they still come with a cost because someone has to make these declarations. That may be the company itself, but I do not think the milk company will recruit two people who are experts on customs, so it will use a logistics provider or a customs agent. That customs agent or logistics provider will do it for the company but he will ask for a price. If he does it for €20, I would say that you are lucky.

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

Good luck Britain, you're going to need it.

 

[oti]

Now I'm thinking about making a trip to the UK before everything goes down. 🤔

 

[Costa Kid]

I simply do not understand how it's possible to avoid a hard border with the EU, Ireland, unless there is a border between Northern Ireland and mainland Britain.

 

[sirap]

give it a rest.

"Get over it paki!"

You'll be fine, because despite what certain people on GAF would have you believe, the vast majority of British people aren't racist pricks.

I wish this was true for all my dark-skinned brothers and sisters, but a decade of living there has taught me otherwise.

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

Now I'm thinking about making a trip to the UK before everything goes down. 🤔

It should be after, since that's when the Pound will be worthless. But even right now is a good time.

 

[kmag]

Does [May] recall the words of Francis Drake? “There must be a beginning of any great matter, but the continuing unto the end until it be thoroughly finished yields the true glory.” May I wish her good luck and good fortune in her negotiations, until she comes to true glory and is welcomed back to this House as a 21st century Gloriana.

That's the level of fuckwittery leavers have enabled.

 

[D4Danger]

WTO members have to enforce customs borders. The UK and EU need to secure their external borders even if they have an FTA.

Ireland is obliged by EU treaty to enforce with customs agents.

See http://data.parliament.uk/writtenev...-with-the-republic-of-ireland/oral/46648.html

for two ex-EU customs officials view of it. It's extremely complicated.

Here's a flavour

yeah that's a real sticky issue. I was thinking more people moving without a hard border not business but I guess they're tied together in such a way that maybe it is unworkable.

"Get over it paki!"

what the fuck? That's not what I said or meant. I don't know what your problem is but you should apologise.

 

[Burai]

To be honest this seems like a really poor way of going about things. A country realistically can't leave behind trade agreements and have a period of time with absolutely nothing.

But they don't though. During the article 50 negotiation you are still part of the EU and therefore you still follow the EU trade agreements.

During the negotiations it's up to you to either arrange to extend that (an interim deal) with the EU or default (for want of a better word) to WTO rules.

At no point will you be left with absolutely nothing unless you were so pig headed that you burned all bridges with the EU and the WTO.

 

[d9b]

This whole thing (Brexit) is like watching a car crash in extremely slow motion, with UK government asleep at the wheel.

 

[Mr. Sam]

It's possible that - while I think this whole thing will leave us a significantly poorer, significantly less pleasant, and in general significantly lesser nation, and is the single biggest political misstep in the post-war era - I think we could probably reel the hysteria in a bit. For example, there's no need to warn people who'll be visiting as tourists that they'll be set upon if they're not white.

 

[Jackpot]

what the fuck? That's not what I said or meant. I don't know what your problem is but you should apologise.

You were asking people to stop shining a light on the massive undercurrent of racism behind the Leave camp because you personally didn't like the attention it was receiving.

 

[kmag]

yeah that's a real sticky issue. I was thinking more people moving without a hard border not business but I guess they're tied together in such a way that maybe it is unworkable.



what the fuck? That's not what I said or meant. I don't know what your problem is but you should apologise.

The problem about people moving between NI and ROI is that people carry goods and cash so while they can have minimal friction, I doubt it'll be frictionless.

The next point is to differentiate between travellers who travel across the border in a private capacity and commercial movement of goods over the border. For private people crossing the border who do not have a large amount of goods with them, in the EU customs legislation we call that negligible traffic. If there is negligible traffic then people can cross the border without having to go to customs. There might be small paths where there are no customs officials.

There the only question is: what is negligible traffic? This term is not defined in the law. When the term was introduced I tried, as a Commission official at the time, to get a definition, but the member states refused on a definition. I had even proposed to delete that term, because it leads to non-uniform treatment within the Union. Fortunately for your case, this term has remained in the customs code. Ireland is free to define what “negligible traffic” is. I can tell you that in Germany goods of a value of €50 are considered as negligible traffic, but it will probably not be a problem if it is slightly more than that.

This is only for people moving from Northern Ireland to the Republic of Ireland. What the UK does on its side when people come from Ireland to Northern Ireland will be up to the UK to define. This is very important to understand. I can tell you what will happen for traffic moving into Ireland or out of Ireland, but I cannot tell you what will happen on the UK side, because the UK will be free to do whatever it likes.

Nigel Mills: On the €50 in Germany, is that €50 of goods that are intended to be left in the other territory or sold; or is it that, if my suit or my phone is worth more than €50, I am snookered before I start?

Michael Lux: No, it is if you buy things in the other country and bring them back. The typical example is the Alps and Switzerland. You are in Switzerland, you have bought some food for walking there and then you cross the border. There is no customs office and while you are walking you move on to the German side. As long as what you bought is only up to €50, it is okay.

What people actually do is the following. They buy a Swiss watch, which may be worth €10,000, and try to walk across the border there. If there is no customs official, then the duties and the VAT are evaded. Let us not forget, we are not only talking about customs duties; we are also talking about VAT, and in the case of tobacco and wine, for example, we are talking about excise duty. It is important to understand that it is not only a customs problem. It is also a VAT and excise duty problem.

Nigel Mills: Just to check, the €50 would only apply to goods an Irish citizen bought while in Northern Ireland and took back into the Republic.

Michael Lux: Yes.

Nigel Mills: It would not apply to things somebody crossing the border happened to already have in their possession that they intended to keep or take back with them. It is literally purchases you have made while you have been out of the country.

Michael Lux: Yes, so do not worry about the suit you are wearing, because you probably did not buy a suit on the other side. If you did then you would have to throw away the old one. That is not legal advice.

Nigel Mills: That sounds like tax evasion.

Chair: To clarify, when you talk about negligible traffic, is that just goods, or is there an equivalent for people to travel?

Michael Lux: No.

Chair: It could not really work that way.

Michael Lux: Yes. I am glad you asked the question, because customs law deals only with goods. The people question is not concerned with that. There is one exception: if you swallow goods, which happens particularly with drugs. You swallow the drugs so that the customs official does not find them. Then goods that are within a person are also covered by customs law. Customs can then search, scan you and find out, and force you to release the goods.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

what the fuck? That's not what I said or meant. I don't know what your problem is but you should apologise.

What did you mean?

It's possible that - while I think this whole thing will leave us a significantly poorer, significantly less pleasant, and in general significantly lesser nation, and is the single biggest political misstep in the post-war era - I think we could probably reel the hysteria in a bit. For example, there's no need to warn people who'll be visiting as tourists that they'll be set upon if they're not white.

Legitimate fear when the areas that voted in favour of leave have seen little to no immigration.

 

[Wrestlemania]

You'll be fine, because despite what certain people on GAF would have you believe, the vast majority of British people aren't racist pricks.

It doesn't matter whether or not the majority are racist pricks. A majority of voters have emboldened a minority of racist pricks and shying away from that doesn't help.

 

[D4Danger]

You were asking people to stop shining a light on the massive undercurrent of racism behind the Leave camp because you personally didn't like the attention it was receiving.

No I wasn't. My post was directed at someone's drive-by post about how racist the UK is to someone who was planning to visit. It often happens that these posts begin to derail threads (like now). I could've certainly explained that better without my own shitpost but to then extrapolate that out like sirap is bullshit.

 

[Burai]

Legitimate fear when the areas that voted in favour of leave have seen little to no immigration.

Not really a legitimate fear if you're a tourist though. Nobody's getting stabbed in Madame Tussauds. Nobody's getting beaten on National Trust property.

 

[kmag]

Not really a legitimate fear if you're a tourist though. Nobody's getting stabbed in Madame Tussauds. Nobody's getting beaten on National Trust property.

.

 

[jelly]

What Leavers would like back

New poll results released on Brexit Day give a fascinating and terrifying glimpse into what Leave voters want post-Brexit Britain to look like.

The YouGov survey asked people on both sides of the referendum result what should be brought back once the UK leaves the European Union.

Over half of Leave voters deemed capital punishment and dark blue passports as their most pressing desire with only slightly smaller majorities pushing for the reintroduction of the imperial measurement system and the right to beat schoolchildren.

 

[SporeCrawler]

Posted? EU is asking for 60 billion euros

 

[Markoman]

The first consequence of Brexit we will experience is that Germany will win the long-lasting towel-war now via Blitzkrieg in Spain. The amount of lobster-red drunkards in Mallorca and Ibiza will drastically go down. Except, Russians and Dutch fill the gap.

 

[Mr. Sam]

You guys need to sit down and have a glass of water. There is an ocean of difference between Bumblefuck-on-Sea voting Leave for dumbass reasons and having to warn tourists not to come here if they're non-white. Chill out.

And for what it's worth, sirap absolutely does owe D4Danger an apology for what they said. That was out of line.

 

[kmag]

What Leavers would like back

New poll results released on Brexit Day give a fascinating and terrifying glimpse into what Leave voters want post-Brexit Britain to look like.

The YouGov survey asked people on both sides of the referendum result what should be brought back once the UK leaves the European Union.

Over half of Leave voters deemed capital punishment and dark blue passports as their most pressing desire with only slightly smaller majorities pushing for the reintroduction of the imperial measurement system and the right to beat schoolchildren.

Lets all come together and move forward to 1950.

 

[SporeCrawler]

Not really a legitimate fear if you're a tourist though. Nobody's getting stabbed in Madame Tussauds. Nobody's getting beaten on National Trust property.

I dont want to test my luck. Im not visiting UK or US unless I absolutely have to

 

[Go_Ly_Dow]

If only the EU was open to more controlled immigration amongst member states this mess could have probably been avoided.

It would greatly help to calm down a lot of the tenion bubbling around Western Europe.