UK set to trigger Brexit on March 29
- Thread starter chadskin
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Kill Your Masters
Member
Did they also use #yolo?
We're the Robin Williams of Take That. The zayn malik of whatever group he was part of.
DarthMasta
Member
The proper nomenclature is "Are we the baddies?" And you need your stuff to have skulls to qualify.
TheBlackMarvel
Member
This. Europe has been pretty nice about it, all things considered.
JonnyDBrit
Member
Though if we're the villains, I'd say we're more along the lines of Bizarro than Lex Luthor.
Is your secret wish that everything goes to hell and out of that a communist revolution will rise? Because I don't see how else a "for better" from left wing perspective could happen?
Pretty much. EU lost tens of years with this dance.
Sorry, but no. Not all final outcomes are known, I'll concede that much, but there are many truths about Brexit that are already known today, and were known before the vote. Theresa May confessed to many of them in her speech yesterday - forfeiting our ability to shape Europe in any way, shape or form for starters. This isn't opening a mystery box. There were and continue to be data sources from every walk of life pointing to this being a bad thing for the people of the UK in a very fact-based objective way. To dismiss them is another way of saying "we've had quite enough of experts".
If Brexit were a game of chance decided on a double dice roll, it's more like needing to roll snake eyes than needing an odd number.
johancruijff
Banned
Wouldn't exactly say that the EU is losing a ton of GDP, I mean the GDP number is going to diminish by the UK amount or there about (depends on how much it moves to other countries, and how much each country loses because of this), but from an actual real world economic perspective the difference isn't all that likely to major for the EU, since trading will still occur, the EU will still be economically bigger than any other entity with the exception of the US.
This separation to the EU isn't the same as it is for the UK, for the EU it isn't all a loss, funny enough with this separation one can actually argue that the EU got more control (the irony), allowing the EU to go faster towards their goals, by not having a special member that can sabotage everything (if I am or not talking about a dick is up to debate).
The laughing at the UK decision has also helped to make people more aware of how political extremism is dangerous, much like the US election of trump made people more aware of dangerous idiots, and this was and still is a very serious issue that is/was cropping up in Europe.
If you are an EU politician I suspect this is also comes with the silver lining of not having to put up with Nigel Farage and the possible future idiots that would replace him, I suspect some of them have scars from having to deal with him, also not having to put up with the UK temper tantrums of threatening to quit the EU if the EU didn't declare them as their favorite child is nice.
As for Russia, don't see this being that big of an issue on that front, its not ideal but it isn't the same as say having the president of the biggest military power in the world, and the biggest member of NATO potentially colluding with the Russians, in the end that situation won't be dictated by what happens or doesn't happen with brexit I suspect.
phisheep
NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
Except that is not what is happening. The proposal is to use statutory instruments. They still go through the Lords either for approval or, for negative ones, for disapproval. Either House can stop an SI in its tracks by resolution, and the powers proposed are for specific purposes and time - constrained. It is nowhere near so draconian as it is being painted.
Besides, this is just a White Paper, so none of it has happened yet.
boxoctosis
Member
Clearly we disagree. I think you're discounting the benefits of not be being in the EU, and only seeing the negatives.
Although it's highly likely we disagree on the benefits of not being in the EU I suppose.
Muffin1611
Banned
I think it would help us to try to understand your opinion if you'd name a few benefits the UK has from not being in the EU.
TheBlackMarvel
Member
Tell us more about these benefits.
Please, name them. You seem bright so I know you're not going to quote bendy bananas and incandescent light bulbs at me. I feel as though I did a lot of reading about Brexit and didn't come across any discernible, tangible benefits, but I'm willing to be proven wrong. Where I fully expect us to never agree however, is that these benefits you'll name will outweigh the costs.
ClosingADoor
Member
There are no upsides. Every single thing the Leave campaign named has already been taken down. No more money for healthcare, there will not be less immigration, and trade deals will not be favorable to Britain.
I'm sure the Tories of all people will turn the UK into the opposite of "neoliberal" and totally not into a tax haven.
Honome
Member
Maybe Premier League will be back to golden years with teams having 90% of british players...
lol
boxoctosis
Member
Ok. In no particular order, some things wrong with the EU, which I think are worth breaking away from.
Free movement of people
Free movement of capital
The rapid expansionary tendencies of the EU, for no good end other than itself.
The treatment of Greece in recent years
The Euro
The misguided belief you can have political , economic , social union across such a diverse spectrum of constituent societies. The concession of sovereignty that goes with it.
That it's a vanity project that has got well out of hand.
That you have people at the top like Juncker who are essentially duplicitous snakes (his tax reform blocking when PM of Luxembourg)
KarneeKarnay
Member
As someone who thinks the Brexit is a stupid decision, I'm struggling to see the benefit for the UK.
I didn't see it before when we had lies to believe and I don't see it now the lies have come out. For one reason. The issues that made people think a Brexit is the right move, are still going to be there and even more relevant after we leave.
The UK could achieve great things, but I just don't see it happening.
#Sadtimes.
I didn't see it before when we had lies to believe and I don't see it now the lies have come out. For one reason. The issues that made people think a Brexit is the right move, are still going to be there and even more relevant after we leave.
The UK could achieve great things, but I just don't see it happening.
#Sadtimes.
Wrestlemania
Banned
What does this even mean?
Of those, only the bolded seem remotely left wing to me tbh
Well maybe he is from the US, where left wing is basically at best center right.
SporeCrawler
Member
i love it that i can freely travel and work everywhere i want to in the eu. if i want and can find a job i can go to france, spain, italy and need to do nothing else then to register myself. that is an incredible benefit
The Friendly Monster
Member
Firstly expansion was pushed primarily by the UK, one aim of this was certainly to dilute the power in the EU away from Germany and France. However this expansion has also been successful in ushering in peaceful democracies, firstly for the Southern European countries coming out of dictatorships, and then for the former countries of the Soviet Union in Eastern Europe.
I hope you enjoy the removal of your rights to travel, work, live and love freely across the continent, I will fight to preserve mine.
ClosingADoor
Member
- Free movement of people has done favors for a lot of countries.
- Free movement of capital has done a lot of good for business.
- The expansion has gone a bit too fast recently, agreed.
- Greece needs to get its affairs in order, I also didn't see the UK making much noise for them.
- The Euro is great for a lot of countries, worse for others. The UK does not have to join, so no reason for them to leave over this.
- The whole goal of the EU is to have that union, so those different societies don't fuck up the continent every 30 years or so with a major war. Worked out pretty well.
- What makes it a vanity project?
- Why is Juncker a snake? And what makes the UK politicians better?
Is the EU perfect? Far from it. But most of the things you list have 1) be in favor or the UK 2) they have opted out of and 3) will not get better when leaving.
Free movement of people and capital have been good for the UK's economy. This is indisputable.
Surely better to be within an expanding circle than outside it? How is to the UK's benefit to be outside that sphere of influence?
Treatment of Greece - maybe a point of principle but again, has no bearing on benefit to the UK. On the contrary, it would appear as a cautionary tale on holding no cards in a negotiation, as we do now.
We were never obligated to join the Euro, so the point is entirely moot.
Misguided notion of union - sure, it's not perfect and never will be, but I'd have thought the past 40 years of peace across the continent and ever diminishing barriers to trade and culture show that it works more than it doesn't. Again, what is the BENEFIT of extricating ourselves from that?
As for sovereignty, I think our current government is already showing its hand now that it sees those pesky European laws regarding human rights and civil liberties on the chopping block. What benefit awaits the UK now that we have more 'control'? What can we do now that we couldn't do before that makes this so worth it? Are you aware of how many wonderful checks and balances we have the EU to thank for that keep our leaders semi-honest?
As for Juncker, so what? Politicians come and go. You talk of duplicitous snakes - what do you make of the Brexiteers? Gove? Farage? Fox? Johnson? These are your puppet masters now. Good job you can count on them to serve in your best interests!
As expected, I see no benefit to the UK in any of the things you've listed. I can respect your opinion on liking/disliking certain things about the EU/Brexit, but subjective viewpoints don't take the macro view of the prospects for the country as a whole. All you have is principles which, whilst admirable, is no different to and is as effective as Jeremy Corbyn.
phisheep
NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
I tend to agree with your points, but to make sense of the Brexit vote, this one needs expanding a bit. Free movement may have been good for the UK's economy, but that doesn't equate to it being good for the UK's people, particularly in typical areas that voted to leave.
GrizzleBoy
Banned
I'm pretty terrified with what an unshackled Tory party will do.
Not because of Tories, but because voters are stupid assholes.
Imagine an entire population, voting to fuck up every important part of social and public service.
Imagine an entire population, persuaded that the only thing that matters about opposition government is how they dress and how well they perform in a pantomime debate every Wednesday, because fuck policies.
Imagine an entire population that instead of holding government to account for their fuckries, decide to blame an entity the vast majority have never understood fully in any point in their lives.
Imagine an entire population, persuaded to vote for the hugest change they never asked for and had absolutely no fucking clue about the real details of. Approaching a year on from the referendum, people still have absolutely no idea what the outcome of leaving the EU actually means for them. Yet they're real sure it'll be great. Its true, because Donald Trump said so.
Voters are amazingly stupid. Beyond belief.
After 2016, I have absolutely no faith that the electorate wouldn't vote to cut off their legs, because of "compassionate conservatism" and a Daily Mail front page about the colour of Jeremy Corbyns tie.
Not because of Tories, but because voters are stupid assholes.
Imagine an entire population, voting to fuck up every important part of social and public service.
Imagine an entire population, persuaded that the only thing that matters about opposition government is how they dress and how well they perform in a pantomime debate every Wednesday, because fuck policies.
Imagine an entire population that instead of holding government to account for their fuckries, decide to blame an entity the vast majority have never understood fully in any point in their lives.
Imagine an entire population, persuaded to vote for the hugest change they never asked for and had absolutely no fucking clue about the real details of. Approaching a year on from the referendum, people still have absolutely no idea what the outcome of leaving the EU actually means for them. Yet they're real sure it'll be great. Its true, because Donald Trump said so.
Voters are amazingly stupid. Beyond belief.
After 2016, I have absolutely no faith that the electorate wouldn't vote to cut off their legs, because of "compassionate conservatism" and a Daily Mail front page about the colour of Jeremy Corbyns tie.
We as public has pretty much turned into a 1 issue nation, and willing to ignore every other issue as long as unjustified hate of EU is stirred on.
Free movement is mostly an indirect benefit (e.g. immigrants generally paying more taxes to the country's coffers), so I can understand why some leave voters don't feel the benefit per se. You do, however, have some very specific instances of tangible benefit, with EU workers in our health service being the most notable and other instances of EU nationals doing the jobs that we simply won't.
I'm very aware of many anecdotal views about freedom of movement from 'they're taking British jobs' to 'they're a drain on public resources' to 'I can't find a house because...' to 'terrorists are getting in' to 'my kids can't get a school place because...' and so on. The crucial 'but' is that the facts just don't marry up with the perceptions.
We all know who the main players are in colouring the wider public's perception of freedom of movement and how we got to this point; mostly the gutter press and chronic under-investment by consecutive governments in large swathes of the country. It is what it is. But whether the people KNOW it or not, the objective facts still support the view that freedom of movement is a good thing.
ClosingADoor
Member
Every developed country has these problems though. The US doesn't have free movement and they have the same trouble in rural areas. It's a changing way of life and work, and that hits those areas. It's not just people coming in doing some jobs cheaper.
boxoctosis
Member
Free movement of people and capital are beneficial for some aspects of the economy, that's indisputable. They've been less great for other sectors of the economy and for elements of society. I think a lot of people are blind to the social and economic damage that the last 40 years of market-driven economics have done to aspects of society. Mostly the areas of society that voted Leave!
The treatment of Greece - not directly relevant, but indirectly, if they'll do that to Greece, what would they do to the UK in the name of the grand EU project.
On the Euro - yeah unlikely we'll ever have joined, but I see the Euro as such a bad idea that it's better to be belt and braces. Why take the chance?
I think people are quick to give the EU the kudos for 40 years of peace, without any counterfactual, and conveniently ignoring things like the Balkans disintegrating under the EU's nose. But mainly, the lack of counterfactual bothers me. We may have had peace anyway, without the EU.
The Friendly Monster
Member
UK has a legally enshrined opt out of the Euro - "Why take a chance?"
No major European war since it's inception - "Maybe that's coincidence, we've got to take the chance..."
Always an important reminder: the United Kingdom doesn't even qualify for the Euro. It fails every single criterium to join.
Either we have peace without the EU or we have another 60 million dead kids. Why not take a chance? 50/50 is not too bad
Budget deficit to GDP
Debt-to-GDP ratio
Exchange rate to Euro
Compatibility of legislation
ClosingADoor
Member
Yes, we give it kudos, because history before it was basically most European countries going to war every decade or so.
The Balkans weren't part of the EU. They will be in the future. And one reason for that is to make sure they don't pull the same thing again.
What kind of counterfacts do you want? We may have had peace. Or we may have not. Indications are, the EU contributed towards peace. The thing was set up for it.
Zvonimir Boban
Banned
So how long before those areas begin to thrive now that the Tories don't have to deal with the tyranny of the EU?
Let us not forget how heavily many areas of this country that have extremely low immigration voted to Leave, nor that there are significant numbers of areas with high immigration that voted to Remain. Where I grew up, in an extremely rural area, there is practically no immigration at all. Yet practically everyone my parents know locally voted to Leave.
Obviously freedom of movement isn't necessarily going to a positive to all people all of the time, but the negatives are almost always due to neglect on the government's part when it comes to funding services and infrastructure. The sad thing is, that if immigration does drop, the funding to services and infrastructure will likely drop too. Those disenfranchised areas of the country are going to be neglected more than ever with Brexit, and then, perhaps, Leave voters will realise that they've fallen for one of the most spectacular examples of scapegoating in history. The people still living in these areas, frankly, are going to keep losing because they are (1) outnumbered and (2) generally incapable of voting for their best interests.
Yup. It's the same damn thing as we see in the Rust Belt. The industry that supported the area is long gone and these people are still remaining and waiting for the jobs to come back.
Thanks.
Not good for Scotland. Think their deficit is pretty bad now compared to when they did the 1st Referendum.
Doesn't matter, you get as much time as you want to join the Euro.
boxoctosis
Member
No idea. It wasn't a factor in my decision to vote Leave. Also, we won't have a Tory government for ever.
Yeah, less workers, less tax receipts, less money spent on goods and services means less money spent on public services and private investment. It's going to hurt.
Zvonimir Boban
Banned
Stop trying to distort the issue with petty things like facts.
Cheers, I needed a laugh today.
Who of us is celebrating?
ClosingADoor
Member
Huh? You bring this as one of the issues why the UK should leave, but it doesn't factor in your decision. How does that work?
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