Post war England (and Wales). He can't walk the streets up here.
UK set to trigger Brexit on March 29
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Post war England (and Wales). He can't walk the streets up here.
I don't mean in a good way, but I think it's because of him we left the EU and it's because of him the UK will be broken up.
Couldn't resist that one, eh. Got a snicker out of me.
I truly wonder what will happen to the UK after Brexit. The Irish, the Scots, Gibraltar, there's just so many problematic issues even outside the monumental task of getting out of the EU mostly unharmed.
Yup. Farage is in the same cunt tier as Thatcher.
I think today is the best outcome that the UK could have hoped for at this stage. I don't believe May was ever naive enough to think that trade talks could begin straight away, but it was a starting position for negotiation. It's in the interests of both the UK and the EU to get the four points Tusk listed resolved as soon as possible, and him hoping that trade talks could start by Autumn does seem a little optimistic, but also shows how quickly they want to move to avoid prolonged uncertainty.
It does put pressure on the UK to put forward their negotiating position on those four points quickly though. And of course, having to agree on those points before the trade talks means that the UK won't be in a position to use them as gambling chips.
I do hope that in the dire circumstance of 'no deal', the UK will revoke Article 50 and we can pretend all this never happened
It does put pressure on the UK to put forward their negotiating position on those four points quickly though. And of course, having to agree on those points before the trade talks means that the UK won't be in a position to use them as gambling chips.
I do hope that in the dire circumstance of 'no deal', the UK will revoke Article 50 and we can pretend all this never happened
The English don't and didn't care, the sight of polski sklep on their high streets infuriated them so.
I think today is the best outcome that the UK could have hoped for at this stage. I don't believe May was ever naive enough to think that trade talks could begin straight away, but it was a starting position for negotiation. It's in the interests of both the UK and the EU to get the four points Tusk listed resolved as soon as possible, and him hoping that trade talks could start by Autumn does seem a little optimistic, but also shows how quickly they want to move to avoid prolonged uncertainty.
It does put pressure on the UK to put forward their negotiating position on those four points quickly though. And of course, having to agree on those points before the trade talks means that the UK won't be in a position to use them as gambling chips.
I do hope that in the dire circumstance of 'no deal', the UK will revoke Article 50 and we can pretend all this never happened
The EU and the UK are talking about two different things when they talk about frameworks for future relationship. The EU's position hasn't really moved.
Audioboxer
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JonnyDBrit
Member
Unless there's proper reform to address these differences, whether through federation or some other means, it's difficult not to see it lead to further fracturing of the UK. Maybe not to the point of political breakup, but certainly a greater weight placed upon regional identities so as not to be English.
Edit:
And yeah, as I mentioned, that clause would give Spain a stupid amount of power in EU-UK relations. Like, anything we would try to arrange with the EU, if it logically affected Gibraltar would have to be approved by Spain. The rest of the EU would be secondary in negotiations.
Isn't the Gibraltar thing kind of a massive deal?
Spain wants Gibraltar, UK says no, Spain vetoes deal, WTO here we come? I appreciate its more complex than that, but are we actually two days in and already have a massive dispute brewing over actual land? thingsarelookingprettygood.jpg?
(Sorry for the drive by post - I'm always reading the thread, but never logged in to respond!)
Spain wants Gibraltar, UK says no, Spain vetoes deal, WTO here we come? I appreciate its more complex than that, but are we actually two days in and already have a massive dispute brewing over actual land? thingsarelookingprettygood.jpg?
(Sorry for the drive by post - I'm always reading the thread, but never logged in to respond!)
English is not my first lenguage, but it sounds to me like:
- EU reaches a deal with the UK.
- Spain wants Gibraltar
- UK says no.
- Spain says "ok, whatever. I'm sending a letter to pops."
- Gibraltar doesn't benefit from the deal until the Spanish Government says so.
There's also the issue of Akrotiri and Dhekelia in Cyprus since Cyprus effectively has a veto on any future trade deal. I doubt they'd remove the bases but they could leverage their power to get the 50sqm of land the British offered under Annan proposals
There's a bit of talk that
from the guidance today is a bit loaded.
Yeah that's how i read it.
Basically Spain says no = Gibraltar economy is fucked
Spain like all EU27 counties (+ 3 EEA) countries would have a seperate veto on the trade deal because the most ambitious free trade deal ever is certainly a mixed competency requiring national level ratification. The EU's current position is just an extra fillet to stop the Spanish from having to torpedo the whole thing, but if they think that leverage is not enough then they've always got the nuclear option of killing the entire thing.
JonnyDBrit
Member
...oh shit, yeah. The UK has bases in Cyprus, and I imagine it's a bit awkward to have military bases inside a union one might leave soon.
DarthMasta
Member
That's how I read it too.
EU/ "real" UK deal, fine, go ahead as normal. Gibraltar? Only if Spain allows it.
It's a bit of a dick move, but pretty smart...
EU/ "real" UK deal, fine, go ahead as normal. Gibraltar? Only if Spain allows it.
It's a bit of a dick move, but pretty smart...
Isn't it more like
- UK proposes deal with EU.
- Giving Gibraltar back to Spain isn't part of deal
- Spain Vetos deal
- UK goes to WTO trading agreement
axisofweevils
Holy crap! Today's real megaton is that more than two people can have the same first name.
In another "everyone saw this coming", there's Falklands V Argentina drama on the horizon again. http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/785860/Falkland-Islands-threat-Argentina-EU-Brexit-bid
In a way, this Spain veto thing is good news for the Scots, right? Spain had been uttering rather noncommittally positive things about Scottish independence in recent times, and with Gibraltar appeasing any nationalist cravings, Catalonia separatism is probably comparatively of lesser import.
UK, you done fucked up. You were supposed to take back control, so why the fuck did all of it end up in Spain?
UK, you done fucked up. You were supposed to take back control, so why the fuck did all of it end up in Spain?
The whole Brexit thing reminds me of this Robot Chicken Star Wars sketch. With Vader being the EU.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpE_xMRiCLE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpE_xMRiCLE
Yeah, I think you guys are right, so its slightly more moderate than I'd read it as - on paper at least. Will be very interesting to see how this bit goes down. UK surely can't condemn Gibraltar, then there are the internal political aspects for Spain and Catalonia. Crazy. Our government are fucking twats to be going forward with this.
autumnleaf
Member
And when all the dust settles little old England will be left with Wales for company thinking about the glory days.
The UK would support Gibraltar without question. They'd be fine.
no land grab is going to happen anyway. this is just the EU side trying to invent some new threats.
JonnyDBrit
Member
I believe it's more say, if Britain wants to arrange a deal with the EU - whether in leaving or after - that would include Gibraltar, then Spain gets a specific veto over the whole areangement. So the UK and the EU want to negotiate over new controls over the Channel tunnel - doesn't involve Gibraltar, Spain has no more say than any other EU country. But if the UK and EU want to ease Visa restrictions after we've left, and such would apply to the citizens of Gibraltar as well, then Spain specifically have to permit it, on top of whatever other portion of the EU might accept the changes.
chromatic9
Member
Gibraltar has rejected Spain by vote twice in recent history and the latest was 98% against. It's technically British land that was signed over. Since Britain has been cooperative in asking what the people want to do I'd say it's down to the people if they want to be part of Spain and EU or not.
ClosingADoor
Member
The other countries would need to agree to that. If there is no deal, and the UK wants to stay, I am all for it. As long as their special positions they have enjoyed until now is removed also. You can't just pull this shit and then go "oh, maybe not" without consequence.I think today is the best outcome that the UK could have hoped for at this stage. I don't believe May was ever naive enough to think that trade talks could begin straight away, but it was a starting position for negotiation. It's in the interests of both the UK and the EU to get the four points Tusk listed resolved as soon as possible, and him hoping that trade talks could start by Autumn does seem a little optimistic, but also shows how quickly they want to move to avoid prolonged uncertainty.
It does put pressure on the UK to put forward their negotiating position on those four points quickly though. And of course, having to agree on those points before the trade talks means that the UK won't be in a position to use them as gambling chips.
I do hope that in the dire circumstance of 'no deal', the UK will revoke Article 50 and we can pretend all this never happened
axisofweevils
Holy crap! Today's real megaton is that more than two people can have the same first name.
Yep, unfortunately, they voted overwhelmingly REMAIN too.
The Friendly Monster
Member
No, that was always a possibility, any EU country can veto any deal with the UK for any reason. My understanding is that this is the EU threatening that Spain will veto a deal unless the UK is willing to exclude Gibraltar benefiting from said deal.
Certainly, but that doesn't change the practical difficulties Spain can inflict on the enclave via mere inaction.
Yep, that might be a slight problem.
JonnyDBrit
Member
Or inversely, if any arrangement includes Gibraltar, it must receive the specific consent of Spain. So even if 26/27 EU members were to accept the deal, if Spain does not, it's not gonna work.
All EU countries have veto power over the deal regardless.
Audioboxer
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Like a boss
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...d_news&ns_source=twitter&ns_linkname=scotland
727 comments on that article, probably won't read...
Herewego!
For the most part he is not wrong.
Phew, sticks and stones. Lucky escape.
He is not wrong at all. UK is giving up the best EU deal for a worse EU deal in every way at best. The only thing worse is WTO. Choose your poison.
Oh I know. I just expected them to use more weasel words.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
Spain's government should get out of Ceuta and Melilla then if they feel so passionate about the Rock, very similar situation. I'm aware that rather than being ceded in perpetuity they were a Spanish North African territory for hundreds of years, but Gibraltar was ceded to what was then the Kingdom of Great Britain more than 300 years ago itself and the residents of the Rock are emphatically of British nationality.
Unfortunate that Spain's current government is like this and the EU is allowing it.
That means there's no deal to be had with Europe, as the EU is putting its unworkable veto right in the forefront.
Gibraltar voted emphatically to remain under British sovereignty exclusively in 1967 and 2002. That's self-determination at work.
Don't give me this bullshit. So because Ceuta and Melilla are integrated, they're not European colonies? That is absolute nonsense, they are the result of colonialism. That doesn't negate Spain's sovereignty to those areas in North Africa, just like Gibraltar being a British Overseas Territory does not negate British sovereignty on the Rock.
Not happening, Spain, the two referendums in 1967 and 2002 made it crystal clear.
Gibraltar will not be sacrificed.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-39453535
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
Re: Gibraltar. What the EU says is that Spain has the power to leave Gibraltar out of any deal signed between the EU and the UK, meaning that it could easily tank Gibraltar's economy. This effectively gives Spain a huge stick to wave around on top of the veto, as it could agree to a softer deal with the UK, only to make sure that Gibraltar gets nothing out of it.
I wouldn't look too much into this Gibraltar deal just yet anyway. There will be some fuckery later on, but Spain has no real intentions of annexing the rock when most of the locals are outright opposed to it and the place can be used for political posturing, which is Gibraltar's only real worth for Rajoy. Some things that you can expect from this mess would be claims about territorial waters and the airport situation. And then there's the nuclear option of going after Gibraltar's economy just to make a point.
Officially Spain would prefer a soft-ish Brexit since the country exports a lot of produce and industrial goods to the UK, but there are also rumours about Rajoy (ever the bastard) looking into a deal that ensures minimal damage to Spain's economy while inflicting some pain on the UK's as a way of showing Catalonian separatists what would happen to their finances if they leave Spain and thus the EU.
I wouldn't look too much into this Gibraltar deal just yet anyway. There will be some fuckery later on, but Spain has no real intentions of annexing the rock when most of the locals are outright opposed to it and the place can be used for political posturing, which is Gibraltar's only real worth for Rajoy. Some things that you can expect from this mess would be claims about territorial waters and the airport situation. And then there's the nuclear option of going after Gibraltar's economy just to make a point.
Officially Spain would prefer a soft-ish Brexit since the country exports a lot of produce and industrial goods to the UK, but there are also rumours about Rajoy (ever the bastard) looking into a deal that ensures minimal damage to Spain's economy while inflicting some pain on the UK's as a way of showing Catalonian separatists what would happen to their finances if they leave Spain and thus the EU.
Ceuta and Melilla were Spanish before Moroccan nationalism (let alone Morocco) existed, so they are not similar at all. That is not to say that Spain has any actual claims over Gibraltar.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
It's not about whether any Moroccan identity existed though. Certainly those Spanish (at one point Ceuta was Portuguese) areas in North Africa developed from conquest earlier from what was once the territory of plenty of tribes, and not more recently as a result of the capture in 1704 and eventual Treaty of Utrecht for Gibraltar, but it's been more than 300 years and the residents of the rock have an overwhelmingly British identity now, just like how Ceuta and Melilla are Spanish. Both the British and Spanish jurisdictions should be accepted.
As Funky said, Spain's enclaves in North Africa were founded centuries ago, long before the Kingdom of Morocco, Melilla in 1497 and Ceuta in 1580. Morocco claims can only be based on some sort of "geographical uniformity".
The Gibraltar territory was designated a Crown Colony in 1830 and was listed as such by the UN in 1946, Ceuta and Melilla have never held colonial status under Spanish law: they were two of the so called presidios.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
Gibraltar was captured in 1704 and formally ceded in 1713. The date at which it became a Crown Colony is not relevant, nor is when it changed it a British Overseas Territory. I don't think colonial status or not really matters. At one point Algeria was integrated into France, that sort of formal status wasn't really relevant to anything either. British Overseas territories that remain tend to be pretty content with their status, so them not being integrated into the UK is of no consequence, in my view, because it's either preferable or of no consequence in their own. We're talking about over 300 years of uninterrupted British sovereignty, and a similar situation for Spain in those two sections of North Africa.
They're not entirely similar, but it's not something to lose sleep over, and colonial status isn't terribly relevant when ~99 percent of the population is emphatic that their current status is just fine in two referendums.
DarthMasta
Member
I don't see how Ceuta and Melilla are relevant.
Oh, sure, maybe in a "You're doing it too sense", but Spain isn't trying to work out a deal with Morocco, while Britain IS trying to work out a deal with Spain (and a few other countries too
).
Besides, to my non native speaker eyes all the language in the plan does is give Spain a way not to veto a deal with Britain in the event they find fault with it in relation to Gibraltar. And it's not like it's a terrible change for Gibraltar since as it is, they'll lose any deal with the EU in 2 years, all this does is make sure Gibraltar won't be getting a deal Spain would oppose while allowing the rest of the UK to get it... Might feel bad for Gibraltar, but they'll always be able to move to mainland UK.
Oh, sure, maybe in a "You're doing it too sense", but Spain isn't trying to work out a deal with Morocco, while Britain IS trying to work out a deal with Spain (and a few other countries too
).Besides, to my non native speaker eyes all the language in the plan does is give Spain a way not to veto a deal with Britain in the event they find fault with it in relation to Gibraltar. And it's not like it's a terrible change for Gibraltar since as it is, they'll lose any deal with the EU in 2 years, all this does is make sure Gibraltar won't be getting a deal Spain would oppose while allowing the rest of the UK to get it... Might feel bad for Gibraltar, but they'll always be able to move to mainland UK.
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