UK set to trigger Brexit on March 29
- Thread starter chadskin
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Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
No.
Good, send the gunboats. Fucking spain thinking they've got anything to say on Gibraltar.
You should read the EU letter.
It doesn't speak about annexing anything. That's all UK media trying to stir shit up
Muffin1611
Banned
What a level-headed response.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
Spending gunboats over a draft document stipulating trade legalese. My my, those sardines must be quivering.
Do you realise how unhinged do you sound?
I've read it. "Effectively annexing" was probably too strong of a phrase, but the idea that Gibraltar would be subject to an entirely new set of controls between it and Spain, which has acted in a semi-hostile way towards them for years, instead of the EU as a whole is a very worrying development.
For context, I'm a staunch pro-EU Liberal Democrat member that voted and campaigned for Remain. I'm not a Falkland-raving UKIPper
DarthMasta
Member
God damn, if that's the reaction to Spain pretty much saying "We're cool with the UK getting a deal, but want a say in how that deal affects Gibraltar, don't want a tax haven on our doorstep anymore", Brexit is right, make it a hard Brexit, less chance of the British madness infecting the rest of us...
ClosingADoor
Member
No, it is meant so that Spain is not going to block a whole deal affecting the UK over just Gibraltar. This can actually be in the favor of Britain.
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-gibraltar-idUSKBN1722AS
Spain has a veto in any case (Just like the european parliament and the other 26 countries). This is to keep them from vetoing the whole deal over Gibraltar.
But, the fact that there's a separate process that just applies to Gibraltar/UK/Spain makes no sense when Gibraltar is a part of the UK and Spain has no sovereignty over it.
Text for reference:
"After the United Kingdom leaves the Union, no agreement between the EU and the UK may apply to the territory of Gibraltar without the agreement between the kingdom of Spain and the UK."
DarthMasta
Member
That's a given. That's what Brexit means. An entirely new set of controls between Britain and the EU. All this letter says is that the Gibraltar controls might be stricter than for the rest of the UK, as far as Spain is concerned. But new controls are coming, from both sides, that's what was voted...
Muffin1611
Banned
Who needs guns, we have bendy bananas!
I don't! People died in the Falklands war. I don't want some babyboomer to fill his own arse with prideful nationalistic feathers whether he is Spanish or English.. just so he can have a little rock.
Be sensible.
So by your definition we should also put a hard border in NI because it's a deal for the whole UK?
Fantastapotamus
Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
Yes, obviously.
Arm the nukes, prepare the bunkers, let's blow up the world. The sun shall never set again on the British Empire. God save the Queen. Keep calm and British on. And all the rest.
Come on dude, saying stuff like this is just begging for a ban. Be smart, be reasonable.
I really do think the EU have played this badly, they are getting rid of a lot of good will on the side of the British public by doing this.
Part of the EU negotiating strategy is dependent on there being resistance and opposition to what the government is doing which will stick May between a rock and a hard place.
In doing this, May will have a lot more support, and the hard brexiteers get much more ammunition to vouch for WTO.
If their intent is to punish the UK and show a warning to any other country that wants to leave, then it works well, but if it's meant as a kind of tough early offer to try and haggle somewhere into the middle, I think it will have backfired.
A lot of people who are in centre of this debate will be moved towards the more hard brexit side. I really wish the EU hadn't included this.
Part of the EU negotiating strategy is dependent on there being resistance and opposition to what the government is doing which will stick May between a rock and a hard place.
In doing this, May will have a lot more support, and the hard brexiteers get much more ammunition to vouch for WTO.
If their intent is to punish the UK and show a warning to any other country that wants to leave, then it works well, but if it's meant as a kind of tough early offer to try and haggle somewhere into the middle, I think it will have backfired.
A lot of people who are in centre of this debate will be moved towards the more hard brexit side. I really wish the EU hadn't included this.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
It's not like the UK has been playing nice with its own land grab at the isthmus, claiming territorial waters it's not entitled to and increasing its area through land reclamation à la China.
Both countries have been puerile in their approach to Gibraltar.
ClosingADoor
Member
All countries have vetos. So Spain can block it either way. This way, we can move forward with a UK deal without them blocking it over Gibraltar, and then work out the Gibraltar details on its own.
Also, Gibraltar is an overseas territory, so it already is separate in that way from the rest of the UK. Wikipedia even says "These territories do not form part of the United Kingdom". So I don't see why having a separate agreement on it is such a strange thing.
The Gibraltar thing is just one of a series of public demonstrations of just how much leverage the EU has over the UK and how much unity there is among the remaining 27 states. It's a convenient tool to show just how weak the UK's negotiating position and possibly an opportunity to crack down on Gibraltar's tax haven status rather than some sort of power play to annex the territory.
That's my interpretation anyway.
That's my interpretation anyway.
The Friendly Monster
Member
God no. May will be in a tough place when the corporations come knocking. She doesn't give a shit about the voters.
Also, the EU really don't care what UK citizens think any more, and neither should they.
Fantastapotamus
Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
I don't think the EU gives a fuck what the British public thinks and neither should they.
This really isn't an equal comparison.
Maybe the UK should have thought of that. They didn't bother requesting anything specific about Gibraltar in their Brexit letter despite knowing it would be a tricky issue. It was even in their draft, but the politicians removed it.
ClosingADoor
Member
The one small blessing of this whole thing is that we in the EU can no longer give a fuck about the anti-EU propaganda the British tabloids feed their readers.
I mean I explained why they might if you read my post (they can put more pressure on May).
This is bullshit and just looking from EU tinted glasses. Spain is just using the situation for political posturing and taking the piss to be honest. If you take a neutral position i don't believe many would back the Spanish position.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
Receipts.
Agreed. I'm wholeheartedly pro-EU and think that what we're doing is stupid, but this is a naked attempt from the Spanish government to exert greater influence over the territory. The EU shouldn't stoop to this level of bullshit.
Just because the UK has acted idiotically through this doesn't mean we should lessen our criticisms of the EU if it does something wrong.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
Is anyone surprised that the current government of Spain would try to make Gibraltar an issue again? Should have been surprising to no one. This is one of those unintended consequences. Gibraltar will stay British exclusively because the population of Gibraltar has such a strong identity as found in both the referendums, so nothing will change.
The Friendly Monster
Member
The EU doesn't need the British public to put pressure on May. The EU can put pressure on May themselves. The British public are the ones who voted for this shit. Your opinion is no longer of any value.
Come on, of course they do. For now. Once it's arrivederci that's another story.
Muffin1611
Banned
It's an obvious joke targeted at the concerns of Tories, which sould rightfully be ridiculed. I don't see anything bannable here.
I don't understand the war angle. The UK knew that Gibraltar was a concern if they'd leave the EU, yet they didn't even mention it in their letter.
The fact that the EU mentions Gibraltar in their response and separates it from the general trade deal is not only more thoughtful than the UK government, it also prevents the whole deal being vetoed by Spain because of Gibraltar.
While it sucks for the people in Gibraltar that it came to this in the first place, that really isn't the EU's fault.
Yep been in this thread too long. No wonder it's an echo chamber.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
I don't see the war angle.
Spain would not go to war with a NATO ally and nuclear power. It might even trigger the collective self-defence pact.
Spain would not go to war with a NATO ally and nuclear power. It might even trigger the collective self-defence pact.
ClosingADoor
Member
What exactly is bullshit? We knew this was coming.
Also, Spain seems to pretty happy that this way we can move forward with the whole relation with the UK, without them having to worry about Gibraltar, since that can be taken care of on its own.
I really fail to see why Britain is upset over this, outside of the wording that Spain has a veto. A veto they would have either way, since all EU states need to sign all agreements. So they don't get more or less power this way, but talks about Gibraltar now can't hold up the total deal.
The EU does not govern Spain. Every country has a veto over any trade deal made. How is it wrong to separate the issue, so it can not hold up the Brexit talks?
The Friendly Monster
Member
That's a "your" in the plural, assuming you (singular) are a member of the British public you think the rEU should take so seriously now.
Fantastapotamus
Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
What? That's not how that works.
If anything, playing soft now would reassure all the Leavers. I doubt a significant portion of Remainers are like "Well, I didn't want out before but since we now get a REALLY bad deal I changed my mind!"
You don't put pressure on somebody by...not putting pressure on them.
I mean...I was joking as well.
I guess this whole thing is already too ridiculous.
Why else is Gibraltar directly​ referred to by the European council? The must know the UK won't give it up no matter the demands.
ClosingADoor
Member
To split the issue up, so Spain can't hold up the Brexit talks over it. The EU is doing the UK a favor by actually thinking about this beforehand.
Muffin1611
Banned
Maybe to make it easier for the UK to reach a trade agreement with the EU without Spain blocking the whole thing?
Aw shit, sorry, my sarcasm detector really doesn't work well in Trump and Brexit threads.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
Yes, that's not happening. Spain is a military ally with a smaller military and population, while also being a NATO ally. Sounds like too much Overwatch.
But vocalising that the UK will come to the defence of Gibraltar against invasion is not a problem.
This express site you linked... they certainly have an opinion on Scottish independence I see.
DarthMasta
Member
What part of "Britain can have a deal, Gibraltar will have a different deal" is giving Gibraltar up? Because the alternative is "Britain and Gibraltar get the same deal, the one Gibraltar would get", since you know, any deal needs Spain's agreement.
Fantastapotamus
Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
Now I really want to know more about this KNICKER FLASH
ClosingADoor
Member
My bad, misread the article. Picked a quick one through Google, thought he was warning about how Gibraltar would run into issues when the UK leaves, but he turned it around the other way. In any case, this stuff was warned about before and the UK should have seen it coming. The EU does and is giving Spain and the UK an out so they can agree on a trade deal without Gibraltar being an issue for them there.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
I'm not sure why you expect people or papers in England to be neutral on Scottish independence. That is an absurd expectation.
The union is extremely popular in England and to a slightly lesser extent, Wales.
Muffin1611
Banned
The hell is a knicker. British word for underwear or something?
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