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[Funky Papa]

It's not like voters and the Tories weren't given ample warning about Gibraltar turning into a shambolic situation if Brexit happened.

Everybody knew that Gibraltar's special status would be a source of trouble and leaving it unaddressed would have been irresponsible by the EU.

This is life catching up.

 

[ZombieFred]

The hell is a knicker. British word for underwear or something?

Don't get your knickers in a twist bruv, I swear on me mum's spotted dick. Proper mint.

 

[oti]

I'm not sure why you expect people or papers in England to be neutral on Scottish independence. That is an absurd expectation.

The union is extremely popular in England and to a slightly lesser extent, Wales.

You wonder why I'd expext the media to be neutral on something?

Is that what growing up with UK garbage media is doing to one's perception of the press?

 

[D4Danger]

The hell is a knicker. British word for underwear or something?

Nick knicked some knickers then got knicked and ended up at the knick.

 

[Micael]

EU puts Gibraltar there so that it can be discussed and Spain doesn't torpedo any future deal over it, and in the process severely fucking the UK (and to a much lesser extent the remaining of the EU), and by doing this somehow it is constructed as the EU bullying UK over Gibraltar?
I mean seriously do people really buy any of that, that the EU with all the shit they can fuck the UK with, a small tax heaven that isn't of all that much economical relevance to the EU as a whole, is what they are going to fight for?

 

[Muffin1611]

Don't get your knickers in a twist bruv, I swear on me mum's spotted dick. Proper mint.

Nick knicked some knickers then got knicked and ended up at the knick.

Next time I'll google.

 

[suedester]

Maybe to make it easier for the UK to reach a trade agreement with the EU without Spain blocking the whole thing?

Whilst that's true it also indicates Spain are going to make a huge fuss of Gibraltar no matter what the people living there want or the legal status of the island.

 

[Pancake Mix]

You wonder why I'd expext the media to be neutral on something?

Is that what growing up with UK media garbage is doing to one's perception of the press?

Oh, come on. The independence of the press is the important thing, but you cannot expect there to be no editorial bias, especially if you're talking about British newspapers.

 

[Empty]

wow can't believe spain is making an underhand self-interested move going into negotiations when the uk has only acted nobly by refusing to guarantee rights of eu migrants living here and threatening to cut off security co-operation.

 

[Muffin1611]

Whilst that's true it also indicates Spain are going to make a huge fuss of Gibraltar no matter what the people living there want or the legal status of the island.

That was clear before the Brexit vote and Britain isn't completely innocent regarding this matter either.

 

[Meadows]

wow can't believe spain is making an underhand self-interested move going into negotiations when the uk has only acted nobly by refusing to guarantee rights of eu migrants living here and threatening to cut off security co-operation.

Except that the UK tried to do this but the EU didn't because "one or two leaders" including Merkel didn't want to make the pledge.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-rights-full-eu-theresa-may-brexit-referendum

Theresa May has said her offer to guarantee the rights of EU citizens in the UK has been snubbed by "one or two" European leaders.

She told European ambassadors in her keynote speech on Tuesday that she wanted to seal an early deal on the issue of the 3 million settled in the UK and the 1.2 million Britons in Europe, but she did not have the backing of all 27 member states.

"We want to guarantee the rights of EU citizens who are already living in Britain and the rights of Britons in other member states as early as we can," she said.

"I have told EU leaders we could do that now," she said. "Many of them favour such an agreement, one or two others do not," she said.

Sky News reported on Tuesday night that Angela Merkel was one of those who did not agree, but this was not confirmed.

 

[suedester]

What part of "Britain can have a deal, Gibraltar will have a different deal" is giving Gibraltar up? Because the alternative is "Britain and Gibraltar get the same deal, the one Gibraltar would get", since you know, any deal needs Spain's agreement.

Why should it get a different deal?

 

[Pancake Mix]

wow can't believe spain is making an underhand self-interested move going into negotiations when the uk has only acted nobly by refusing to guarantee rights of eu migrants living here and threatening to cut off security co-operation.

Again, that goes both ways. The EU never did so with British migrants in the EU.

As neither did, I don't see the problem. It can be discussed in negotiations rather than tying one hand behind one's back.

Except that the UK tried to do this but the EU didn't because "one or two leaders" including Merkel didn't want to make the pledge.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-rights-full-eu-theresa-may-brexit-referendum

Exactly. The EU didn't want to reciprocate.

 

[boxoctosis]

Next time I'll google.

knickers knackers knockers

 

[Xando]

Why should it get a different deal?

Because it's an area that's going to get hit way harder by a hard brexit than england?

Why do you think northern ireland will get a different deal?

 

[Dehnus]

I really do think the EU have played this badly, they are getting rid of a lot of good will on the side of the British public by doing this.

Part of the EU negotiating strategy is dependent on there being resistance and opposition to what the government is doing which will stick May between a rock and a hard place.

In doing this, May will have a lot more support, and the hard brexiteers get much more ammunition to vouch for WTO.

If their intent is to punish the UK and show a warning to any other country that wants to leave, then it works well, but if it's meant as a kind of tough early offer to try and haggle somewhere into the middle, I think it will have backfired.

A lot of people who are in centre of this debate will be moved towards the more hard brexit side. I really wish the EU hadn't included this.

Should they just allow you to put a tax haven right on their doorstep, allowing you to circumvent any regulations and treaties you agreed on earlier? Yeah, that's the issue. Not that damn rock.

 

[Pancake Mix]

Why do you think northern ireland will get a different deal?

That seems unlikely.

 

[Xando]

That seems unlikely.

Not really. Don't see how there's going to be a hard border with checks in northern ireland like there's going to be in dover

 

[ClosingADoor]

Why should it get a different deal?

Within the UK Gibraltar even has different rules and deals. And now it is an issue when the EU says: probably best to make a separate one for this region here, since it is an overseas territory and one of our members has some issues there politically.

 

[Philly40]

I'm not sure why you expect people or papers in England to be neutral on Scottish independence. That is an absurd expectation.

The union is extremely popular in England and to a slightly lesser extent, Wales.

I think the little englanders are anxious that letching over Carol Kirkwood may be seen as treasonous post Scottish Independence.

 

[suedester]

Because it's an area that's going to get hit way harder by a hard brexit than england?

Why do you think northern ireland will get a different deal?

So Spain are just looking out for the well being of Gibraltar?

 

[boxoctosis]

I'm not sure why you expect people or papers in England to be neutral on Scottish independence. That is an absurd expectation.

The union is extremely popular in England and to a slightly lesser extent, Wales.

Is there evidence for this? I thought a lot of England didn't give a shit about Scotland. Indeed, when it looked like the SNP may have been kingmaker in the 2015 election, the English went into meltdown about it, revealing their true colours.

 

[D4Danger]

Maybe they should just work out some common rules for land borders. That would cover NI, Gibraltar and Scotland.

 

[DarthMasta]

Why should it get a different deal?

Because it's not Britain, it's a British Overseas Territory. And because if not, Spain will only accept for Britain to have the same deal as Gibraltar.

 

[Meadows]

Is there evidence for this? I thought a lot of England didn't give a shit about Scotland. Indeed, when it looked like the SNP may have been kingmaker in the 2015 election, the English went into meltdown about it, revealing their true colours.

19% in England supported Scottish independence. Part of that was from people that supported it because of their views on Westminster politics, Scottish/Irish nationalists living in England etc.

There is 6% support for independence in Wales.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-want-scotland-to-stay-in-the-uk-9679439.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-39114914

 

[Xando]

So Spain are just looking out for the well being of Gibraltar?

I wouldn't go that far but i think the EU clearly thinks that unlike England, Wales or Scotland Gibraltar and Northern Ireland need a different deal to insure there isn't going to be a complete economic collapse.

 

[Pancake Mix]

Is there evidence for this? I thought a lot of England didn't give a shit about Scotland. Indeed, when it looked like the SNP may have been kingmaker in the 2015 election, the English went into meltdown about it, revealing their true colours.

One of many polls about this subject

The English and Welsh want Scotland to remain part of the United Kingdom by a clear majority, even though they think the Scots get a better financial deal from the relationship, according to a Financial Times poll.

...

Only 15 per cent of English and Welsh people who expressed a strong preference want a split, against 55 per cent who want Scotland to stay. Another 30 per cent had no strong opinion.

Another:

https://www.ft.com/content/5473566a-ed9a-11e3-8a00-00144feabdc0

The overwhelming majority of English, Welsh and Northern Irish people want Scotland to stay in the UK, an exclusive poll reveals.

Its clear message to Scots before Thursday’s historic referendum shows the level of feeling for keeping our nations linked.

The YouGov poll for the Let’s Stay Together campaign found that 81% of people in the rest of the United Kingdom who had a definite opinion want Scots to vote No – up from 65% last year.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/scottish-independence-referendum-new-poll-4244149

 

[Desmond]

You can't post just one credible link (FT) amongst a sea of rags lol

 

[Muffin1611]

Daily Mail, really?

Edit: Removed already I see.

 

[PdotMichael]

Well, May must find a fast solution for Gibraltar, she has not the time to waste a significant part of it for Gibraltar.

If it was a planned move by the EU then it was a brilliant one.

 

[Spaghetti]

What a level-headed response.

Spending gunboats over a draft document stipulating trade legalese. My my, those sardines must be quivering.

Do you realise how unhinged do you sound?

Yes, obviously.
Arm the nukes, prepare the bunkers, let's blow up the world. The sun shall never set again on the British Empire. God save the Queen. Keep calm and British on. And all the rest.

TCRS is just a third rate driveby shitposter and best ignored.

Cats have walked across keyboards and created posts with more insight than TCRS has ever offered a thread.

 

[Meadows]

Well, May must find a fast solution for Gibraltar, she has not the time to waste a significant part of it for Gibraltar.

If it was a planned move by the EU then it was a brilliant one.

Realistically this will probably be over in a week. The fact that Gibraltar has 300 years of history in the UK and the people want to stay mean that anything will fizzle out.

 

[Empty]

Except that the UK tried to do this but the EU didn't because "one or two leaders" including Merkel didn't want to make the pledge.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-rights-full-eu-theresa-may-brexit-referendum

well yes my argument is that both sides are trying to maneuver to get the most advantageous deal here and this is neither surprising nor an indictment of either side

it's not a well actually you started it argument

the uk had an absolutely fantastic deal as a member of the eu (single market, no euro, literally wrote all the financial laws to benefit the city) and you'd expect given the superior leverage of the entire bloc compared to the uk itself they'd take the chance to try and alter that balance. doubly so given that any "good deal" for us ultimately threatens their political project. there's no downside to them here, just opportunity.

 

[Muffin1611]

Realistically this will probably be over in a week. The fact that Gibraltar has 300 years of history in the UK and the people want to stay mean that anything will fizzle out.

I think he doesn't mean the public reaction to this, but the special agreement for Gibraltar under consideration of Spain. That will likely take a long time, and negotiations don't even start till after German elections I think.

 

[PdotMichael]

Realistically this will probably be over in a week. The fact that Gibraltar has 300 years of history in the UK and the people want to stay mean that anything will fizzle out.

It will obviously take more than just one week. Gibraltar forced to carry the full hard Brexit as well would destroy it.

 

[PJV3]

The UK screwed Gibraltar by voting out, accept it and take a deal and sort out that mess separately. I can't believe the nerve of my country sometimes.

 

[Pancake Mix]

Not really. Don't see how there's going to be a hard border with checks in northern ireland like there's going to be in dover

There will have to be some customs checks. There is no getting around that upon leaving a customs union.

 

[Desmond]

There will have to be some customs checks. There is no getting around that upon leaving a customs union.

People on both sides of the island will not stand for a hard border. People commute up and down on a daily basis. It'll be madness.

 

[BigAl1992]

There will have to be some customs checks. There is no getting around that upon leaving a customs union.

Good luck with trying to promote THAT idea around here. No one in Ireland, either in the Republic or North want it, and if it happens, you can be damned well sure they'll be a lot of headaches for people in Westminster, Stormont and Leinster House to deal with.

 

[Xando]

There will have to be some customs checks. There is no getting around that upon leaving a customs union.

Wouldn't be so sure.

Could see NI staying in the customs union and have custom checks towards the rest of the UK.

Hard border would be a disaster for NI.

 

[Meadows]

Wouldn't be so sure.

Could see NI staying in the customs union and have custom checks towards the rest of the UK.

Hard border would be a disaster for NI.

That might be the least likely thing to happen I've ever heard.

 

[Pancake Mix]

People on both sides of the island will not stand for a hard border. People commute up and down on a daily basis. It'll be madness.

There's no way around it. It's two different customs jurisdictions.

Good luck with trying to promote THAT idea around here. No one in Ireland, either in the Republic or North want it, and if it happens, you can be damned well sure they'll be a lot of headaches for people in Westminster, Stormont and Leinster House to deal with.

I wouldn't say no one in Northern Ireland wants it, I'm sure some of that 44% do.

Wouldn't be so sure.

Could see NI staying in the customs union and have custom checks towards the rest of the UK.

Hard border would be a disaster for NI.

Maybe...but the WTO might say something to the effect of "either the UK is one entity or it isn't" and put an end to that.

And the Unionists will have something to say about that.

 

[Syder]

Maybe they should just work out some common rules for land borders. That would cover NI, Gibraltar and Scotland.

but that would make too much sense.

 

[Pancake Mix]

but that would make too much sense.

No. A United Kingdom with a customs and effective EU border between Scotland and England is no United Kingdom at all. That was never a reasonable option and the UK single market is worth far, far more to Scotland anyway. Harmonisation with that market is more important.

There will probably be another referendum and that'll be final.

 

[Xando]

That might be the least likely thing to happen I've ever heard.

It's what experts would consider the best option for NI
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-38206961

I know we don't listen to experts anymore but a hard border to Ireland would cripple NI economy.

Maybe...but the WTO might say something to the effect of "either the UK is one entity or it isn't" and put an end to that.

I agree but it'd be the economically best option for NI short of staying in the EU.

 

[jelly]

No. A United Kingdom with a customs and effective EU border between Scotland and England is no United Kingdom at all. That was never a reasonable option and the UK single market is worth far, far more to Scotland anyway. Harmonisation with that market is more important.

There will probably be another referendum and that'll be final.

Republic of Ireland sure went down the tubes being in the EU and using the Euro. It's not impossible for Scotland to work in much the same way as them.

 

[phisheep]

I maintain that people over the age of 65/70 should lose their right to vote.

The grey base is getting bigger by the day, decisions need to be made to limit their power in screwing over progress and sad attempts to try and relive their glory days before they die off in an underfunded and understaffed care home while their kids struggle to make ends meet.

So, you blame older voters for screwing over progress?

Quite apart from the business of trying to take the vote away from people who you suspect don't agree with you, which is a bit anti-progressive in itself, is there actual evidence that old people vote disproportionately anti-progressively?

Look at the Brexit vote for example (I'm using the Politico figures here). To be sure, 61% of 65+ voters voted for Leave. But then so did 66% of those with only school-level education. And remember that very many of the oldsters didn't have the education that we have enjoyed - lots left school at 14 or 15, there were far fewer universities and so on. So, comparative to education level, oldies were (slightly) more progressive than youngsters.

Or do you want to take the vote away from the uneducated and the poor as well?

We've had a lot of progress in the last 50-60 years - voted for by the very people you want to take the vote away from. Your logic, such as it is, doesn't stack up.

 

[Buba Big Guns]

The UK screwed Gibraltar by voting out, accept it and take a deal and sort out that mess separately. I can't believe the nerve of my country sometimes.

Pretty much. Dunno how it can be construed otherwise, it just demonstrates how much more negotiating power the EU has over the UK.

 

[NekoFever]

EU puts Gibraltar there so that it can be discussed and Spain doesn't torpedo any future deal over it, and in the process severely fucking the UK (and to a much lesser extent the remaining of the EU), and by doing this somehow it is constructed as the EU bullying UK over Gibraltar?
I mean seriously do people really buy any of that, that the EU with all the shit they can fuck the UK with, a small tax heaven that isn't of all that much economical relevance to the EU as a whole, is what they are going to fight for?

You have to remember that everything over the next two years that isn't the UK getting everything entirely its own way is going to be presented as the big evil failing EU bullying us because they're bitter and scared over Brexit.

Likewise the tiniest compromise on the part of the EU will be presented as a great victory for glorious Britannia and evidence of how they need us more than we need them, etc.

 

[Pancake Mix]

Republic of Ireland sure went down the tubes being in the EU and using the Euro. It's not impossible for Scotland to work in much the same way as them.

The economy did go in the tubes initially and Ireland took like 75 years and a good 25 of them in what became the EU to become a tiger economy. But sure, it happened.

Also, about the remaining oil... Shetland and Orkney might prefer fishing regulations outside the EU and desire to remain in the UK.

Sure, ignore the economy in the short to medium-term and your largest trading partner for dreams of sovereignty.

Just don't be surprised if Shetland & Orkney want out if that were to happen, nor should we assume the people of Scotland will vote to leave, either, that flies in the face of most polls.

Also, a barely 50 percent vote to leave would have the same issue as Brexit. The areas near the border (including up near Edinburgh) are likely to wish to remain in the UK, which will cause resentment towards areas like Glasgow that are likely to wish to leave.

Edinburgh was once part of the ancient Anglo-Saxon kingdom of Northumbria and its name is an Old English anglicisation. In general, the people of historical Cumberland, Northumberland, the Scottish Borders, Lothian, Dumfries, and Galloway have a lot in common.