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[Pancake Mix]

EDIT: Sorry, double post

 

[PJV3]

Pretty much. Dunno how it can be construed otherwise, it just demonstrates how much more negotiating power the EU has over the UK.

I just hope the population realise taking control means you take responsibility for having and using it.

 

[ClosingADoor]

You have to remember that everything over the next two years that isn't the UK getting everything entirely its own way is going to be presented as the big evil failing EU bullying us because they're bitter and scared over Brexit.

Likewise the tiniest compromise on the part of the EU will be presented as a great victory for glorious Britannia and evidence of how they need us more than we need them, etc.

So nothing different from what we're used to the past 30 years or so.

The economy did go in the tubes initially and Ireland took like 75 years and a good 25 of them in what became the EU to become a tiger economy. But sure, it happened.

Know what other economy was in the tubes for a good portion of the last century? The UK.

Or are we really going down the path that Ireland should have just remained part of the UK and that somehow everything would have gone totally better for them?

 

[boxoctosis]

One of many polls about this subject



Another:

https://www.ft.com/content/5473566a-ed9a-11e3-8a00-00144feabdc0



http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/scottish-independence-referendum-new-poll-4244149

Thanks.

All 2014 polls though. Wonder what similar polls would say now. Also, the disgraceful reaction of the English to the potential of the Scots actually having a meaningful say in the direction of the UK election was what cemented my shift from No last time to Yes this time (assuming we get another referendum). I have gone almost totally native it seems after 19 years in Scotland.

 

[PdotMichael]

The economy did go in the tubes initially and Ireland took like 75 years and a good 25 of them in what became the EU to become a tiger economy. But sure, it happened.

Also, about the remaining oil... Shetland and Orkney might prefer fishing regulations outside the EU and desire to remain in the UK.

Sure, ignore the economy in the short to medium-term and your largest trading partner for dreams of sovereignty.
.

Do I see the implication here that Ireland had a functional economy while being part of the Empire?

 

[BreezyLimbo]

So is the UK out of the UN or have they not triggered yet?

 

[chadskin]

Trump:

Do you think other countries will follow the UK out of the EU?
I think Brexit is very good for the UK, it is going to be very good for UK. I would have thought when it happened that more would follow, but I really think the European Union is getting their act together. It could be a very good thing for both.

So it’s an antidote, not a virus?
It is a very interesting thing. If you would have asked me that the day after the election . . . I would have said, ‘Yeah, it will start to come apart’. But they have done a very good job and — I am meeting with them very soon — they have done a very good job in bringing it back together . . . I had a great meeting with Chancellor Merkel. I had a great meeting with her, I really liked her. She said the same thing to me. I spoke to her two days ago. She said the same thing to me, we had a great meeting and the press doesn’t get it. 

So the centre holds in Europe?
I think that it’s really holding. I think they’ve done a better job since Brexit. I think they have done a better job.

In what sense do you think they have done a better job? 
It just seems to be that there is a different spirit for holding together. I don’t think they had that spirit when they were fighting with the UK and UK ultimately decided to go out . . . I actually think it is going to be a great deal for UK, and I think it is going to be really, really good also for the European Union.

https://www.ft.com/content/9ae777ea-17ac-11e7-a53d-df09f373be87

 

[oti]

Trump:

https://www.ft.com/content/9ae777ea-17ac-11e7-a53d-df09f373be87

so many words, so little meaning

 

[Makareu]

Reading Trump is like reading a chatbot.

 

[Linkstrikesback]

Reading Trump is like reading a chatbot.

I bet chatbots have surpassed trump speech at this point.

 

[Meadows]

Prick

 

[Pancake Mix]

Thanks.

All 2014 polls though. Wonder what similar polls would say now. Also, the disgraceful reaction of the English to the potential of the Scots actually having a meaningful say in the direction of the UK election was what cemented my shift from No last time to Yes this time (assuming we get another referendum). I have gone almost totally native it seems after 19 years in Scotland.

I suspect the polls would be similar. Yes, rags will say offensive things from time to time but I think surveys will continue to show very strong support for the union from England and Wales.

You are absolutely entitled to your opinion, but I think it's unfair to say "gone almost totally native" when a referendum this decade showed that a majority of people in Scotland didn't want to leave either. Obviously it appears there could be another vote, but that majority may not change and they are absolutely not somehow lesser Scots for wanting to retain the union with England, Wales, and Northern Ireland.

Do I see the implication here that Ireland had a functional economy while being part of the Empire?

No, I think the enormous emigration from the country (though it continued decades after independence) shows that.

 

[Muffin1611]

Trump:

https://www.ft.com/content/9ae777ea-17ac-11e7-a53d-df09f373be87

Surprised that I'd ever say this, but he's not completely wrong. Brexit could prove good for the EU in that the UK can't block shit anymore.

Broken clock and all that.

 

[Audioboxer]

Is there evidence for this? I thought a lot of England didn't give a shit about Scotland. Indeed, when it looked like the SNP may have been kingmaker in the 2015 election, the English went into meltdown about it, revealing their true colours.

That always happens. Look at any comments section on a website about the SNP, Sturgeon or Scottish independence. Always a ton of Bob's from somewhere outside of Scotland going full ham mode about why it would be the end of the world if there was a whiff of the union under threat.

Even on GAF some of the strongest opposition to Scottish independence aren't... Scottish.

I maintain that people over the age of 65/70 should lose their right to vote.

The grey base is getting bigger by the day, decisions need to be made to limit their power in screwing over progress and sad attempts to try and relive their glory days before they die off in an underfunded and understaffed care home while their kids struggle to make ends meet.

That's a disgraceful opinion. I only caught this post because someone else quoted it. You don't campaign for what you believe in by actively wishing people who have a right to vote get that right canned because "reasons" which are ultimately "I haven't got my way!".

Yes it's brutally hard in general to change old people's minds, but what a terrible stance to take that because someone is old they shouldn't be able to vote.

I see hyperbole all the time from people upset at old people in votes, but as I always say the answer to what you believe in is arguing with passion, reason and facts, but ultimately with as cool a head as you can. As soon as you start insulting, abusing or in this case demanding rights get taken away you lose.

There's plenty of young people able to vote who chuck their votes away by not giving a shit and refusing to go to the polls. Better aim some ire at them than just blanket blaming every old person. Not really fair considering there will be good numbers in their later years voting how you want, even if they don't all. As I said being all bad ass about the idea of taking voting rights away from people doesn't exactly make you look all that great morally yourself. I hope that was hyperbole Miles, but you seemed to frame it fairly serious.

 

[joanot]

All this talk from the tories & the british media about going to war is pretty amusing when the UK is the one who hasn´t respected the Utrecht treaty several times, like grabbing land from the isthmus & territorial waters, which represent much more serious events than putting a guideline in a draft document lol, but hey ! Spain is the one bullying us...

 

[jelly]

Remember when David Cameron said leaving the EU might lead to war.

Project Fear wasn't it.

 

[suedester]

All this talk from the tories & the british media about going to war is pretty amusing when the UK is the one who hasn´t respected the Utrecht treaty several times, like grabbing land from the isthmus & territorial waters, which represent much more serious events than putting a guideline in a draft document lol, but hey ! Spain is the one bullying us...

Can you expand on your post citing examples so I can do some research? Thanks.

 

[Linkstrikesback]

I see hyperbole all the time from people upset at old people in votes, but as I always say the answer to what you believe in is arguing with passion, reason and facts, but ultimately with as cool a head as you can. As soon as you start insulting, abusing or in this case demanding rights get taken away you lose.

You can't argue with facts when the other side actively takes facts as an insult, and the other campaign is run by idiots on a platform of "We've had enough of experts". That's probably a large chunk of why people are constantly pissed over this.

 

[CTLance]

Trump:

https://www.ft.com/content/9ae777ea-17ac-11e7-a53d-df09f373be87

His interviews are like celery. Negative calorie affairs. You chew and chew, and in the end you get nothing out of it despite having wasted a bunch of time and energy. Augh.

Also, obligatory Merkel-Trump frown.

Truly good times, that.

 

[Audioboxer]

You can't argue with facts when the other side actively takes facts as an insult, and the other campaign is run by idiots on a platform of "We've had enough of experts". That's probably a large chunk of why people are constantly pissed over this.

True, and everyone can be as pissed as they want, until their blood boils and they shit pure lava. However, ain't no one got any time for some prehistoric voting bans/laws based on sexism, ageism or any other garbage. That would be a serious setback to democracy.

Go after shoddy journalism, career politicians, the daily mail, lies and all sorts of bullshit. Don't just blanket hate and call for a whole category of people not to be able to vote.

Everyone realises they grow old one day too? We don't just stay teenagers forever lol. I'd very much like my right to vote intact when I'm 60+.

 

[CyclopsRock]

La Linea's a shit hole. The more Gib has, the better.

 

[Zvonimir Boban]

Trump:

https://www.ft.com/content/9ae777ea-17ac-11e7-a53d-df09f373be87

Translated that into English:

Do you think other countries will follow the UK out of the EU?

Um, maybe.

So it’s an antidote, not a virus?

I dunno, maybe.

So the centre holds in Europe?

I'm not sure but I think so?

In what sense do you think they have done a better job?

Pffft, I dunno.

He's becoming more presidential.

 

[CyclopsRock]

You can't argue with facts when the other side actively takes facts as an insult, and the other campaign is run by idiots on a platform of "We've had enough of experts". That's probably a large chunk of why people are constantly pissed over this.

This is such a gross misrepresentation of what happened.

 

[joanot]

Can you expand on your post citing examples so I can do some research? Thanks.

ARTICLE X OF THE TREATY OF UTRECHT :

The Catholic King does hereby, for himself, his heirs and successors, yield to the Crown of Great Britain the full and entire propriety of the town and castle of Gibraltar, together with the port, fortifications, and forts thereunto belonging; and he gives up the said propriety to be held and enjoyed absolutely with all manner of right for ever, without any exception or impediment whatsoever.

the Catholic King wills, and takes it to be understood, that the above-named propriety be yielded to Great Britain without any territorial jurisdiction and without any open communication by land with the country round about.

Territorial waters


The Spanish statement upon ratification of the Convention was:

2. In ratifying the Convention, Spain wishes to make it known that this act cannot be construed as recognition of any rights or status regarding the maritime space of Gibraltar that are not included in article 10 of the Treaty of Utrecht of 13 July 1713 concluded between the Crowns of Spain and Great Britain. Furthermore, Spain does not consider that Resolution III of the Third United Nations Conference on the Law of the Sea is applicable to the colony of Gibraltar, which is subject to a process of decolonization in which only relevant resolutions adopted by the United Nations General Assembly are applicable.

The British statement upon ratification of the Convention was:

With regard to point 2 of the declaration made upon ratification of the Convention by the Government of Spain, the Government of the United Kingdom has no doubt about the sovereignty of the United Kingdom over Gibraltar, including its territorial waters. The Government of the United Kingdom, as the administering authority of Gibraltar, has extended the United Kingdom's accession to the Convention and ratification of the Agreement to Gibraltar. The Government of the United Kingdom, therefore, rejects as unfounded point 2 of the Spanish declaration

The isthmus

The Treaty of Utrecht did not mention British sovereignty over Gibraltar beyond the fortified perimeter of the town as it was in 1713

You can read a simplified overview in the wikipedia article about the dispute:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputed_status_of_Gibraltar

 

[Philly40]

Also, a barely 50 percent vote to leave would have the same issue as Brexit. The areas near the border (including up near Edinburgh) are likely to wish to remain in the UK, which will cause resentment towards areas like Glasgow that are likely to wish to leave.

Edinburgh was once part of the ancient Anglo-Saxon kingdom of Northumbria and its name is an Old English anglicisation. In general, the people of historical Cumberland, Northumberland, the Scottish Borders, Lothian, Dumfries, and Galloway have a lot in common.

This almost sounds as disingenuous as a Tak3n post, the Borders are very sparsely populated.

And hinting that Edinburgh is close to pro-brexit is idiotic (but you've reminded us of glorious anglo-saxon history, so I suppose you've done your job)

 

[Stallion Dan]

So happy this "Spain will veto independent Scotland joining the EU" nonsense can now be put to rest.

Once and for all debunked. Anyone mentioning it as a serious issue for Scotland in future can do one looking at the fucking "we might go to war with Spain over Gibraltar nonsense.." HAHAHA.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...se-veto-if-scotland-tries-to-join-eu#comments


As expected the EU will slowly but surely make positive noises towards Scotland, as it makes a really nice side dish to all the other stuff they're going to beat the UK with in the months/years to come. May's and the Tories' attitude to Scotland will absolutely seal independence now I think. Now that the fear stories have all come to nothing (indeed reversed in many cases) there's such threadbare arguments left for the next indyref campaign. The Yes side starts at a close to 50/50 split and with so much change coming that we didn't want, and the only way to salvage so much of what we hold dear coming from a Yes vote.. I'm confident. Thank you Brexiters....!

I look forward to watching Westminster politics in 10 years rom now and knowing it has virtually fuck all to do with me!

This is ignoring that post Brexit Scotland majority wants to stay as UK/don't want second vote.

 

[Empty]

This is such a gross misrepresentation of what happened.

seriously

dominic cummings vote leave campaign was an absolute masterclass, especially as he had nearly the entire political establishment against him, with the governments resources and ability to set the agenda on their side, and had to keep vain and self-absorbed tory and ukip eurospectics on their (winning) message for months.

"idiots"

v long but his blog about how leave won is completely fascinating https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/01/dominic-cummings-brexit-referendum-won/

also the "we've had enough of experts" was one part of one answer by gove in a single interview that only has such prominence because smug remainers weaponize it constantly to imply everyone who doesn't agree with them is just stupid and hates knowledge

 

[tuxfool]

His interviews are like celery. Negative calorie affairs. You chew and chew, and in the end you get nothing out of it despite having wasted a bunch of time and energy. Augh.

Also, obligatory Merkel-Trump frown.

Truly good times, that.

I pity the poor interpreter that had to translate the regular verbal diarrhoea that comes out of his mouth.

 

[Audioboxer]

This almost sounds as disingenuous as a Tak3n post, the Borders are very sparsely populated.

And hinting that Edinburgh is close to pro-brexit is idiotic (but you've reminded us of glorious anglo-saxon history, so I suppose you've done your job)

I don't think he can be hinting at that because....

A breakdown of the Capital's voting shows Edinburgh North & Leith and Edinburgh South had the strongest Remain votes, both at 78 per cent; Edinburgh East and Edinburgh South West were both 72 per cent Remain; and Edinburgh West was 71 per cent. Edinburgh was always expected to be strongly pro-EU, but the overall result of 74 per cent support for Remain – announced by council chief executive and returning officer Andrew Kerr shortly after 3.30am – was more than expected.

http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.c...e-for-remain-as-uk-heads-for-brexit-1-4162652

I think he was talking about Scotland staying/leaving the UK in 2014.

Glasgow voted YES

Edinburgh voted NO by a large margin (61.1% no).

So aye, Edinburgh can fuck off clearly, Glasgow is the real capital /s /banter

 

[suedester]

.

That's all very well but the UK offered joint sovereignty not that long ago and the Gibraltans totally rejected it.

 

[DarthMasta]

What's all this talk about Gibraltar's sovereignty, it's not in question, Spain didn't ask for it in the Brexit negotiations.

 

[Pancake Mix]

This almost sounds as disingenuous as a Tak3n post, the Borders are very sparsely populated.

And hinting that Edinburgh is close to pro-brexit is idiotic (but you've reminded us of glorious anglo-saxon history, so I suppose you've done your job)

As Audioboxer already said that wasn't what I was implying. It'd be more idiotic to assume that's what I was saying, not least of which because it's an urban area. The most pro-Brexit area Moray in the north (49.9 percent leave). Dumfries and Galloway in the far south is next.

 

[Stallion Dan]

Also, the EU really don't care what UK citizens think any more, and neither should they.

They never did. Is why we voted out.

 

[Pandy]

Also, about the remaining oil... Shetland and Orkney might prefer fishing regulations outside the EU and desire to remain in the UK.
...
Just don't be surprised if Shetland & Orkney want out if that were to happen, nor should we assume the people of Scotland will vote to leave, either, that flies in the face of most polls.

I know you're not particularly interested in letting reality get in the way of your rhetoric, but for the benefit of the others, some context.

Orkney fisherman fish predominantly in local waters for shellfish, an activity which is very little influenced by the common fisheries policy. They also benefit from demand for their catch in Spain and France, where there is much greater consumption of shellfish than the UK. Furthermore, Orkney has a lot of agricultural activity which relies heavily on payments from the common agricultural policy.
Orkney voted to stay in the EU by a similar margin to the Scottish average.

Shetland does also benefit substantially from the common agricultural policy, but here the fishermen with bigger boats are indeed impacted by the common fisheries policy and would gladly see the end of EU restrictions. They also have more money to push their agenda locally compared with the farmers. Away from fishing and farming there's a sense of entitlement to the riches associated with the oil industry, combined with a feeling of resentment towards the SNP as the Westminster austerity cuts are delivered through Holyrood.
Shetland voted to stay in the EU by a narrower margin than the Scottish average. The Unionists are stirring the pot there in the hope that they can get sufficient support for a Shetland-only break-away movement to scare the rest of Scotland into staying.

Tldr: Shetland much more volatile situation than Orkney, and more susceptible to swings in popular opinion dependant on how fishing is handled by UK in Brexit negotiations.

 

[oti]

This is an interesting video about the Gibraltar situation. They really need some sort of special deal because of this Brexit mess. And they even voted 96% Stay.

https://youtu.be/VBU46G3fphU

They never did. Is why we voted out.

lol

 

[Pancake Mix]

Shetland voted to stay in the EU by a narrower margin than the Scottish average. The Unionists are stirring the pot there in the hope that they can get sufficient support for a Shetland-only break-away movement to scare the rest of Scotland into staying.

I know you're not particularly interested in letting reality get in the way of your rhetoric, but for the benefit of the others, some context.

You're wrong, this has been a thing for ages.

Angus MacNeil, the SNP's rural affairs spokesman, told the BBC that both Shetland and Orkney would be permitted to remain part of the UK regardless of the referendum result "if there was a big enough drive for self-determination" among their residents.
If they did not join a separate Scotland, he said the islands would retain control over a "fair fraction" of the North Sea oil and gas that Alex Salmond is relying on to fund public services.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/9156220/SNP-admits-Shetland-and-Orkney-could-opt-out-of-independent-Scotland.html

Orkney has traditionally been extremely hostile to Scottish independence and preferred Westminster government to that from Holyrood. They were part of Norway, not Scotland, until the late 15th century

However, a 2013 poll found only eight per cent backed leaving Scotland in the event of independence. The islanders overwhelmingly backed remaining in the UK and the European Union at both referendums in 2014 and 2016.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/02/orkney-explore-independence-scotland-uk-following-brexit/

They also have a Lib Dem MP (the last in Scotland) and unionist candidates always pull a solid majority.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orkney_and_Shetland_(UK_Parliament_constituency)

And here's an article from Shetland itself.

Meanwhile Scottish Fishermen's Federation chief executive Bertie Armstrong said:" The focus of the fishing industry is entirely on ensuring we free ourselves from the straitjacket of the common fisheries policy [CFP], which forces us to give away to other EU countries almost 60 per cent of the fish in our waters.

"Any constitutional arrangement under which we would continue to be bound by the CFP would be unacceptable to the industry."

Scott said: "And so it begins again. Just two years after putting the country through one divisive referendum, the SNP are using the chaos of Brexit to force another one.

http://www.shetnews.co.uk/viewpoint/14193-mixed-views-over-second-independence-referendum

 

[Pandy]

This is ignoring that post Brexit Scotland majority wants to stay as UK/don't want second vote.

Murdo Fraser's secret GAF account.

 

[joanot]

That's all very well but the UK offered joint sovereignty not that long ago and the Gibraltans totally rejected it.

Of course they did, joint sovereignty with Spain would mean putting in jeopardy Gibraltar's tax haven status.

They also rejected Brexit and...

What's all this talk about Gibraltar's sovereignty, it's not in question, Spain didn't ask for it in the Brexit negotiations.

Yep.

 

[Stinkles]

This is ignoring that post Brexit Scotland majority wants to stay as UK/don't want second vote.

Luckily small sample polls sponsored by private companies don't replace elections.

Are you Scottish or otherwise European btw? Literally just curious not attacking. Polling you, if you will.

 

[axisofweevils]

So, if passports are going to be the major flashpoint, I'll have to put mine in this (Consumerism works fast)

http://www.ihearteu.co.uk/product-page/don-t-blame-me-i-voted-remain-passport-cover-various-designs

 

[suedester]

What's all this talk about Gibraltar's sovereignty, it's not in question, Spain didn't ask for it in the Brexit negotiations.

Spain clearly wants something.

 

[Stinkles]

Holy shit at that Northumbrian map. Next we'll have Dalriada.

 

[firehawk12]

“Thirty-five years ago this week, another woman prime minister sent a taskforce halfway across the world to defend the freedom of another small group of British people against another Spanish-speaking country, and I’m absolutely certain that our current prime minister will show the same resolve in standing by the people of Gibraltar,” Howard told Sophy Ridge on Sunday on Sky News.

Is this really going to go to an armed conflict?

 

[ClosingADoor]

Spain clearly wants something.

Spanish politicians probably want to use it for some gain among their voters. So the EU throws them this to play nice during the actual trade negotiations with Britain.

I don't get the overreaction from the UK about it, as if this came as some big surprise that Gibraltar might become an issue again.

Is this really going to go to an armed conflict?

No. Posturing from both sides for political points. What will happen is the EU and UK make a deal, and then Gibraltar has a separate agreement and a special status.

 

[CTLance]

I pity the poor interpreter that had to translate the regular verbal diarrhoea that comes out of his mouth.

I bet they gave up midway and just patched in random Kung Pow quotes.

Mayor: Er, Master Betty, what is the Evil Council's plan?
Master Betty: Nyah. Haha. It is EVIL, it is so EVIL. It is a bad, bad plan, which will hurt many... people... who are good. I think it's great that it's so bad.

*Merkel turns to, glares at Trump*

 

[tuxfool]

I don't get the overreaction from the UK about it, as if this came as some big surprise that Gibraltar might become an issue again.

The overreaction stems from the fact that the UK forgot about Gibraltar.

 

[la_briola]

They never did. Is why we voted out.

all those special rules for our special snowflakes, still not enough

 

[Empty]

Is this really going to go to an armed conflict?

no. micheal howard is completely irrelevant and has been for over a decade. we are not going to war with a european country lol.

he mainly said it to stir up thatcher nostalgia imo as the claim only exists as a cheap comparison for him to trumpet that supposedly glorious time when BRITANNIA RULES THE WAVES

 

[AlexFlame116]

They never did. Is why we voted out.

Eh?

 

[Muffin1611]

They never did. Is why we voted out.

I hope you're not serious.