It was just boring! It was the most Mario Mario (Mario...) except that Mario is known for innovation. Its the same problem I have with New Super Mario Bros (other than the original, which was actually innovative).
Not to say Yooka Laylee is better.
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Mario 3D World is more "archaic" than Yooka-Laylee but nobody complained.
- Thread starter nkarafo
- Start date
It was just boring! It was the most Mario Mario (Mario...) except that Mario is known for innovation. Its the same problem I have with New Super Mario Bros (other than the original, which was actually innovative).
Not to say Yooka Laylee is better.
Gotdatmoney
Member
Naw. There is legit no way you ran through Sonic 1. The game (series as a whole) has tons of obstacles amd multiple paths and verticle platforming that make it impossible to left to right without platforming. No matter how many times you claim you did that doesnt make it so. Sonic 1 is the prime example of a game you cannot run staright through on a first play through past zone 1. The second zone is literally impossible to do this.
I have played Spyro 1-3 about 20 times each. The cameras are not perfect but the layout of the levels being so wide make the camera mostly a non issue. Its problematic when the game tries to funnel you into smaller more confined areas but you dont get that often you also have the ability to swing the camera away from walls.
Yes I have played these games recently.
Mario 3D World is a masterclass in game design, so it has a LOT going for it despite the camera.
A better example would be shitty Metroid Other M that was basically the OP said and much much more.
You could easily adapt the layout and have more interesting level design in Other M if you made the game in 2D.
It shits the bed nearly everywhere but the camera was one egregious party that the gaming media barely noticed.
A better example would be shitty Metroid Other M that was basically the OP said and much much more.
You could easily adapt the layout and have more interesting level design in Other M if you made the game in 2D.
It shits the bed nearly everywhere but the camera was one egregious party that the gaming media barely noticed.
Gotdatmoney
Member
Its not. You arent actually out here trying to tell us good egg galaxy and honey and galacy and the first level of 64 are difficult are you?
Calamari41
41 > 38
Super Mario 3D Land/World and Mario 64/Sunshine/Galaxy are different series. They aren't meant to be stacked up 1:1 and compared directly.
NHarmonic.
Member
Then let's rate them all 10/10, why bother reviewing games?
nkarafo
Member
2D overhead, yes. Most of the time you see the surfaces you need to walk on without the camera rotating. At least in this particular level. A slightly zoomed out, 2D overhead version would cover most of this level without many sacrifices IMO (other than graphical fidelity obviously).
If the game gets challenging only after you beat the game then yes it is the easiest 3D Mario game overall and its easier than pretty much every 2D Mario game.
God that OT, I should not have looked
Lol, dit you played mario sunshine?
Mario 3d world is good, not that good as mario galaxy but still one of the best gameplay out there
TeamLeftMatch
Member
Did you ever complete or even play 3d world? I ask this because your argument sounds like you looked up a photo of the game and went "Yeah that could be ported to 2d". There are stars in 3d world that need to be accessed behind the camera. Also the game can't be ported to 2d just because it has simple shapes, when in reality the game has some complex shapes. Mario 64 has some simple shapes, in Bowser's levels
which I might add are the only levels to have a full free camera
Thanks for having common sense, some seem to lack this ability
Gotdatmoney
Member
The game is no easier in its initial stages than the other games. It is the hardest overall game. Its not easier than the others at it's easiest. Like I said. You aint actually implying good egg galaxy and honey comb and all that other bullshit through the first 3/4 of galaxy is challenging are you? It's all relatively the same difficulty
ThanksVision
Member
3D World is so much fun with local multiplayer
nkarafo
Member
I played up to the Bowser Castle world (is that the 7th?).
I didn't feel like i'm playing a game where the 3rd perspective made a huge difference in the game design or gameplay, for most of the time, except the toad levels. Again, that's how i honestly felt like.
Now, i don't remember every single level but this feeling is what stuck with me for most of the duration.
I never tried to convince anyone that one is better than the other in this thread. My argument was that both games use archaic design mechanics or ideas.
RandomHopeInc
Member
Archaic is not the way to describe a design choice
The problem in comparing these two games in terms of being archaic is that while both may use styles of gameplay from yesteryear, one seems to take all the bad parts of that olden age while another takes just the good stuff.
Take people's frustrations with not being able to look back in 3D World. The game was designed purposefully in a way that you don't NEED to look back. Yooka Laylee has some good stuff in it. Even the reviews that hate on the game say it has some good things.
But it drug along way too much of the bad and the camera controls are among the main issues from that era that are still present DESPITE the player having control of it. 3D platformers aren't dead. They never died out. Collectathon ones included. Ones that have good comedy have, though, and to me that's what always stood out about Rare. It was games that were almost on par with Super Mario 64, but with huge comedic twists and turns that make it extremely fun to explore and collect.
Take people's frustrations with not being able to look back in 3D World. The game was designed purposefully in a way that you don't NEED to look back. Yooka Laylee has some good stuff in it. Even the reviews that hate on the game say it has some good things.
But it drug along way too much of the bad and the camera controls are among the main issues from that era that are still present DESPITE the player having control of it. 3D platformers aren't dead. They never died out. Collectathon ones included. Ones that have good comedy have, though, and to me that's what always stood out about Rare. It was games that were almost on par with Super Mario 64, but with huge comedic twists and turns that make it extremely fun to explore and collect.
"Archaic" only becomes a criticism when it detracts from the game. For most people, the issues you had with 3D World weren't a big deal or they actually hold the opposite opinion. Thinking free camera is inherently always better than fixed camera is insane.
I'm sorry people don't like YL as much as you do. But if they didn't like it they didn't like it, and the easy target is Banjo-like designs that hindered their enjoyment.
boiled goose
good with gravy
I don't know how anyone can even say this. If you actually look at LEVEL DESIGN 3d world is probably the 3d mario game with the most new ideas and variety. Nearly every level has a new idea.
It was safe regarding it's overall structure sure and lack of any cohesion or story made it less epic than galaxy, but boring??
Opinions can truly be wrong.
nkarafo
Member
Isn't "collectathon" a design choice?
Did we watch the same video? There's depth all over the place. Achieving that on 2D is not only really difficult, it would also make for an incredibly zoomed out camera because the level moves in both up/down and left/right directions. How would you communicate platform height in top down? Unless you do some weird skewed angles or sometging, which would make precision worse. I have no idea how this would work in 2D.
I guess you could force it but it would play completely different (read: bad).
No I never said that they were harder levels. They were more challenging games overall though. Since those games did not require you to beat the game to become difficult. Not to mention most of the Levels in 3D World were so bite sized anyway and having a check point in every level meant that anybody and i mean anybody could beat that game. That is not something i could say about Sunshine or 64. Dying in those games meant you would have to start the objective all over again making those games more punishing as a result.
bobawesome
Member
Mods, please ban this person.
boiled goose
good with gravy
Collectathon could be independent of being archaic. The problem is collectathon usually implies bad design.
yes but the problem is that mario takes the best archaic mechanics and makes a polished experience out of them
yet YL takes some of the worst archaic design decisions and does nothing to improve them
Belgian Dude
Member
Btw, I know I'm a bit late, but the starting area of bob-omb battlefield in isometric style (a really quick sketch). You definitely wouldn't lose a lot comparable to transforming 3d world. Scale is wrong but you get the idea
I'm pretty sure galaxy would be the one hurt the most by a transition to isometric, and that's the game that probably has the most straight up '2d' sections.
I'm pretty sure galaxy would be the one hurt the most by a transition to isometric, and that's the game that probably has the most straight up '2d' sections.
Which is more original: a game just like Mario Kart but with entirely original power-ups, or a game that uses the same-power ups and the same style of gameplay as Mario Kart but approaches it in a completely different way, like the first Zero-G racer? EDIT: Sorry badly explained.
Saying "this game is amazing because of these details" is such a flawed argument. The game should be viewed as its whole, and 3D World was boring and unoriginal. It was Mario for people who love Mario and nobody else.
EDIT:
Words didn't even slightly represent what I was trying to say. Also suggested that Wipeout was original, which it wasn't.
nkarafo
Member
This would be a fair post if you removed the "best and worst archaic ideas". Making a collectathon game is a design choice and isn't inherently bad. It's a game style or genre, like all others. Not all people will like a certain genre. Now if Y-L managed it nicely or not it is another thing entirely.
Jonneh3003
Banned
Btw, I know I'm a bit late, but the starting area of bob-omb battlefield in isometric style (a really quick sketch). You definitely wouldn't lose a lot comparable to transforming 3d world. Scale is wrong but you get the idea
I'm pretty sure galaxy would be the one hurt the most by a transition to isometric, and that's the game that probably has the most straight up '2d' sections.
That's beautiful, good job!
Damn.
Mario 3D World is easily my favourite Mario game. EASILY. And I grew up playing All-Stars, World, 64, etc.
The big 3D "open-concept" kind of games where you enter a level 7 times to beat it 7 different ways just doesn't really appeal to me anymore. 3D World had fantastic level design, the difficulty ramp was perfect, the amount of content in it is insane, and it's super fun single-player and even more fun multiplayer. The art design and music is also some if not the best in any Mario game IMO.
It's funny seeing comments about it being a "step back" when so many people consider World to be the best Mario game, which 3D World is arguably more like than games like 64 or Galaxy are.
To me it was just everything I want in a Mario game. I'm excited for Odyssey, but damn if I wouldn't love to see 3D World make the Switch as well.
Mario 3D World is easily my favourite Mario game. EASILY. And I grew up playing All-Stars, World, 64, etc.
The big 3D "open-concept" kind of games where you enter a level 7 times to beat it 7 different ways just doesn't really appeal to me anymore. 3D World had fantastic level design, the difficulty ramp was perfect, the amount of content in it is insane, and it's super fun single-player and even more fun multiplayer. The art design and music is also some if not the best in any Mario game IMO.
It's funny seeing comments about it being a "step back" when so many people consider World to be the best Mario game, which 3D World is arguably more like than games like 64 or Galaxy are.
To me it was just everything I want in a Mario game. I'm excited for Odyssey, but damn if I wouldn't love to see 3D World make the Switch as well.
Gotdatmoney
Member
You don't need 120 stars/Shines to beat any of those games. You don't have to play every level in those games to "beat" them so this comparison is mostly pointless. The progression to different points is locked to an extent (main floor basement castle in 64) but you can skip whole courses and beat SM64 so what is the actual argument you are making?
To 100% all of those games 3D World is the hardest. (You can make an argument for sunshine due to tons of bullshit design I suppose) If fully completing the games isnt a requirement then what is the argument? The games are structured differently. You can beat SMW in 1 hour if you skip 70 levels.
Honestly people who say things like that make me think they never played the game. 3D World is god tier platforming. Zero flaws.
nkarafo
Member
Galaxy is an obvious one since you move around the whole surfaces of 3D objects. But Sunshine would be hurt as well since it has some very complex and "twisty" levels, like the harbor or the theme park.
64 isn't too complex so some of it would work, yes. The first level keeps mostly the same perspective until you reach the hill where you need to run around it.
I didnt say that YL being a collectathon was a bad design choice.
its all in the execution.
I prefer large 3D platformers like Banjo-Kazooie, but Yooka-Laylee is a really rough game. 3D World didn't set my world on fire but it was a much more fun and better made game. It having restricted camera and controls were built perfectly into the game design whereas YLs camera and controls are spotty. I'm working my way through YL and just scratching my head of how it fell so far from what made the Banjo games fun.
So you want the game to be more similar to the Galaxy games or 64/Sunshine of which there are two of each already, rather than 3D Land-style which is much newer and only one of. EDIT: And 3D World approaches in a new way as well with the addition of multiplayer.
Chezzymann
Member
3D world has a huge amount of polish in its gameplay and a bunch of clever and interesting ideas in its level design. Yooka laylee doesn't really have any of that.
nkarafo
Member
The poster above me made an isometric sketch of an area in the first Mario 64 level. Use this as a guide and try to figure out how many 3D world levels would also work like this by yourself.
NOLA_Gaffer
Banned
I had no idea so many people hated Super Mario 3D World. Huh.
yeah it's a fun game, like hating donkey kong country returns. Is it as good as donkey kong country 2? Nah, but it's pretty good regardless. Only thing I'd change is aesthetics.
Haven't tried yooka laylee. Will try to do so soon, but generally I don't like collectathons. I mean Conker is the acception due to how funny/ridiculous it is.
Me neither. I knew it wasn't universally loved, but I just chalked that up to not a lot of people playing it.
Seriously, to me this game should have as strong a legacy as Super Mario World does.
nkarafo
Member
Did you make that sketch?
.
If yes, what's your opinion about a 2D overhead version of Mario 3D world. Lets take the first two levels in mind. Would it be harder or easier for you to draw the 64 levels or the 3D World ones? Which would lose the most by the transition?
Mario 3d World, like every modern Mario game tells you where to go, what to do, and very strongly hints at how to do it once you get there. Nintendo have become masters at making people feel accomplished while offering the least amount of actual challenge at least on the critical path, particularly of the figuring stuff out variety.
Y-L has alienated a lot of people by remaining true to its roots of being an adventure game disguised as a platform game, it's not particularly hard, but half the fun is figuring out where to go, what to do and how to do it. It's very easy to write off the lack of a minimap, objective markers, clearly defined linear paths, plainly laid out entrances to levels, etc as being 'archaic'.
Y-L has alienated a lot of people by remaining true to its roots of being an adventure game disguised as a platform game, it's not particularly hard, but half the fun is figuring out where to go, what to do and how to do it. It's very easy to write off the lack of a minimap, objective markers, clearly defined linear paths, plainly laid out entrances to levels, etc as being 'archaic'.