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[nkarafo]

I know there is that super shitty Sonic game. Wasn't there a Banjo game on the GBA that tried to do this?

I think there are plenty of games that try to do this. GBA had lots of overhead 2D ports of 3D games like these.

But these levels are all new. I don't think there's a game like this where they tried to port an existing 3D level to an overhead 2D perspective.

There's quite a few on the GBA. Off the top of my head, Rayman Hoodlums Revenge. It's not very good.

There's also Spyro Season of Ice

And Grunty's Revenge, as you said

When I was younger I kept accidentally buying these kinds of games and hating them. I don't really miss them

Beaten by the poster above. Quoting to bump bottom of the page reply.

 

[DarkConfidant]

If you can't control the camera, but the camera angles are fixed to be awesome, that's a win-win: Good camera angles and I don't have to babysit the right stick the whole game.

That's far better than a shitty camera.
In fact, I'd prefer it in more games, but most devs don't have time to ensure that the fix camera moves in the right places in each level.

 

[_Rob_]

If you can't control the camera, but the camera angles are fixed to be awesome, that's a win-win: Good camera angles and I don't have to babysit the right stick the whole game.

That's far better than a shitty camera.
In fact, I'd prefer it in more games, but most devs don't have time to ensure that the fix camera moves in the right places in each level.

How good a camera is, is too subjective for this to work in many cases though.

 

[Type40]

Complains about an isometric Mario game having an isometric camera. I would say it works as intended. Different than a traditional Mario game, Sure, but hardly archaic (since it has no previous history in the Mario series) .

We haven't had a collection based 3d platformer in a long time. By the time Kameo came out it was a dead genre, and I was done with it after DK64. Games evolved and changed. Yooka-Lalee is part of the wave bringing back that old style (mainly due to nostalgia). It would be more apt to call the style of gameplay in YL archaic because it it trying to use a gameplay formula that hasn't been employed in nearly 10 years. Whatever problem the camera has can probably be patched at some point. The camera in M3DW is incredible dynamic, but its very subtle to the point were it's not noticeable.

The initial complaint is poorly formulated, since the 2 games are fundamentally different. Using Sonic Adventure 1 or Conker 64, would have been a better point for comparison, since platformers have evolved and absorbed parts of other game play genres over the years.

 

[Skyzard]

If you can't control the camera, but the camera angles are fixed to be awesome, that's a win-win: Good camera angles and I don't have to babysit the right stick the whole game.

That's far better than a shitty camera.
In fact, I'd prefer it in more games, but most devs don't have time to ensure that the fix camera moves in the right places in each level.

I'm happy to manually control the camera (though I wish in yookalaylee they made objects blocking the camera transparent instead) if it means I get to explore an ambitious 3D world with all its nooks and crannies.

That's not what you're saying, I understand.

What you are saying is so wrong it's hard not to treat it as blatant bait however.

Ok, I'm pretty much used to it now whenever I make a point people don't want to concede.

 

[Holy Order Sol]

Thinly-veiled "why do they get a free pass" bullshit again. Then again this "archaic" thing is also nonsense in the first place.

 

[Calamari41]

I'm happy to manually control the camera (though I wish in yookalaylee they made objects blocking the camera transparent instead) if it means I get to explore an ambitious 3D world with all its nooks and crannies.

But that's not the kind of game that EAD Tokyo was trying to make. We know they're more than capable of doing so, but they didn't want to this time. It's like complaining that Captain Toad didn't have any platforming. That's not the game they were trying to make.

 

[Skyzard]

But that's not the kind of game that EAD Tokyo was trying to make. We know they're more than capable of doing so, but they didn't want to this time. It's like complaining that Captain Toad didn't have any platforming. That's not the game they were trying to make.

I know, but it's the game I wanted. This felt like a (very safe) half-step to a multiplayer 3D mario with traditional 3D level design. Single player feels lacking but multiplayer works. I want both to work great, it would be a challenge, I thought maybe they could pull it off but seems like they're just avoiding it.

 

[Mech.E. Risarovi]

Wh... Wha... What?!

Oh, I see...

WHAT?!

 

[Calamari41]

I know, but it's the game I wanted. This felt like a half step to a multiplayer 3D mario.

But that doesn't make it an archaic or bad game. Not saying that you specifically call it that, but many do using the same reasoning.

 

[Skyzard]

But that doesn't make it an archaic or bad game. Not saying that you specifically call it that, but many do using the same reasoning.

Yeah, it's not really either of those. It still does something new.

Some of us traditional 3D fans had high expectations and hopes I guess. I know it would be a challenge to add multiplayer to the sorts of levels in M64. But it would feel like more like an adventure.

 

[Tarextherex]

Idk about that fan made dk64 hommage game but 3D World is definitely archaic even though it was a polished game made by Nintendo. How do you make a 3D game with a run button and a fixed camera, it's their new hd console yet their Mario looks like the shit kids that didn't have N64's were stuck playing. Single-handedly killed the Wii U tbh

 

[Principate]

Idk about that fan made dk64 hommage game but 3D World is definitely archaic even though it was a polished game made by Nintendo. How do you make a 3D game with a run button and a fixed camera, it's their new hd console yet their Mario looks like the shit kids that didn't have N64's were stuck playing. Single-handedly killed the Wii U tbh

This isn't even slightly true under any context.

 

[XandBosch]

Idk about that fan made dk64 hommage game but 3D World is definitely archaic even though it was a polished game made by Nintendo. How do you make a 3D game with a run button and a fixed camera, it's their new hd console yet their Mario looks like the shit kids that didn't have N64's were stuck playing. Single-handedly killed the Wii U tbh

 

[AGoodODST]

There's quite a few on the GBA. Off the top of my head, Rayman Hoodlums Revenge. It's not very good.

There's also Spyro Season of Ice

And Grunty's Revenge, as you said

When I was younger I kept accidentally buying these kinds of games and hating them. I don't really miss them

These all look horrid lol.

I think there are plenty of games that try to do this. GBA had lots of overhead 2D ports of 3D games like these.

But these levels are all new. I don't think there's a game like this where they tried to port an existing 3D level to an overhead 2D perspective.



Beaten by the poster above. Quoting to bump bottom of the page reply.

How was Tony Hawk 2(?) on GBA? Did it share stages with the PS1 game?

 

[Snkfanatic]

Idk about that fan made dk64 hommage game but 3D World is definitely archaic even though it was a polished game made by Nintendo. How do you make a 3D game with a run button and a fixed camera, it's their new hd console yet their Mario looks like the shit kids that didn't have N64's were stuck playing. Single-handedly killed the Wii U tbh

LOL man I know people love to hate 3D World but this is a new low.

 

[Phoenix RISING]

I agree with the spirit of what the OP is saying, but not the specific support arguments.

Many of my peers rated Yooka Laylee because "nostalgia isn't enough." Okay, fine. But you gave Mario 3D World a 9 because it's "classic Mario on 3D."

Cognitive dissonance detected.

I did not see Mario World 3D as great, but just good. Same with YL.

While YL is a collect-a-thon, Mario is also a get-to-the-goal game. They both have secrets and power ups. One thing YL lacks though are challenge missions.

If the challenge missions were throughout Mario 3D world, I would have liked it better.

That said, I feel that games in the genre automatically get penalized post-Mario Galaxy.

 

[andymcc]

Idk about that fan made dk64 hommage game but 3D World is definitely archaic even though it was a polished game made by Nintendo. How do you make a 3D game with a run button and a fixed camera, it's their new hd console yet their Mario looks like the shit kids that didn't have N64's were stuck playing. Single-handedly killed the Wii U tbh

This is a gift.

The N64 wasn't even close to the best console of that generation anyhow....

 

[Savantcore]

A good old game is better then a bad old game.


Yooka-Laylee just lacks that extra polish Mario, and heck, those old Rare games had. The controls feels a bit jank. The level design isnt that great.


Its feels more Gex / Croc then Banjo.

Don't you badmouth Lord Croc now

 

[Sylverstone14]

Which is what i'm trying to say in the OP.

I don't imply that Y-L is a better game that 3D World. All i'm saying is that both games use archaic design choices yet only one of them is criticized for doing so.

I think Yooka-Laylee is criticized because traditional 3D platformers have come so far in regards to correcting the issues of the N64 era, but Playtonic seems to have ignored those corrections to basically be a 1:1 old-school Rare 3D platformer.

With Super Mario 3D World, it's not being ticketed for "archaic" design choices because the game is built very specifically to work within its confines: fixed camera, 8-way movement, smaller level sizes, and so on. It's never so much of an annoyance and the level design/gameplay shines above all else.

A lot of YL reviews focus on its archaic design choices because the problems that existed then are too great to not be ignored. They can't ignore a wonky camera, how Yooka and Layle are controlled, the humongous worlds, and so on.

Y-L was built from the ground up embracing the past and using Banjo-Kazooie and old 3D platformers as a blueprint, while Super Mario 3D World improves upon the "2D into 3D" formula from Mario 3D Land, expanding it from its obviously "made-for-portable" approach (which may explain the "archaic" slant) and bumping it up some more to be more versatile on a home console.

I highly suggest watching the Game Maker's Toolkit video on why Mario 3D World works, and I REALLY hope Mark does a video comparing Yooka-Laylee to Banjo-Kazooie and the Rare platformers of old to properly get into what flaws exist.

Idk about that fan made dk64 hommage game but 3D World is definitely archaic even though it was a polished game made by Nintendo. How do you make a 3D game with a run button and a fixed camera, it's their new hd console yet their Mario looks like the shit kids that didn't have N64's were stuck playing. Single-handedly killed the Wii U tbh

Hellooooooo, hyberbole.

 

[nkarafo]

Its feels more Gex / Croc then Banjo.

I don't remember Croc having a big free roaming 3D world. All i remember is moving from one small area/room to another with loading in-betwwen.

 

[Tarextherex]

LOL man I know people love to hate 3D World but this is a new low.

3DS was a bad system with a lot of problems at launch yet it had Pokemon and shit so it turned around. The flagship game for home Nintendo consoles is mainly 3D Mario, yet their more powerful system to date had this wiiware-tier game that no one asked for as their holiday title. If instead it was Galaxy 3 or an adventure Mario then Wii U would have filled a similar niche than the Wii compared to its more powerful competitors but nope, total failure. Don't give me that "but it's pure distilled platforming", Galaxy did that and didn't feel like trash to control, hell their first 3D game felt better to control, think about it

 

[Principate]

I agree with the spirit of what the OP is saying, but not the specific support arguments.

Many of my peers rated Yooka Laylee because "nostalgia isn't enough." Okay, fine. But you gave Mario 3D World a 9 because it's "classic Mario on 3D."

Cognitive dissonance detected.

I did not see Mario World 3D as great, but just good. Same with YL.

While YL is a collect-a-thon, Mario is also a get-to-the-goal game. They both have secrets and power ups. One thing YL lacks though are challenge missions.

If the challenge missions were throughout Mario 3D world, I would have liked it better.

That said, I feel that games in the genre automatically get penalized post-Mario Galaxy.

Ummmm because it's noway as simple as that execution matters and even at it's base level classic Mario was far more highly regarded than Banjo anyway.

 

[MrBadger]

These all look horrid lol.

They are. Rayman especially because I bought it unboxed and expected a sequel to the super underrated Rayman 3 GBA.

Anyway here's some more

Pacman World

Pacman World 2

Robots (although I kinda like this one...don't ask)

I suppose the GBA was so ripe with these kinds of games because it was after 3D games became the norm, but before handhelds were good enough to run them?

 

[TheRedSnifit]

Good to see Spieler Eins in this thread, still fighting the fight.

 

[Principate]

3DS was a bad system with a lot of problems at launch yet it had Pokemon and shit so it turned around. The flagship game for home Nintendo consoles is mainly 3D Mario, yet their more powerful system to date had this wiiware-tier game that no one asked for as their holiday title. If instead it was Galaxy 3 or an adventure Mario then Wii U would have filled a similar niche than the Wii compared to its more powerful competitors but nope, total failure. Don't give me that "but it's pure distilled platforming", Galaxy did that and didn't feel like trash to control, hell their first 3D game felt better to control, think about it

3D Mario's are the worst selling Mainline Mario games your arguement just plain doesn't make sense. Even 3D Land sold like 11 million world wide so this specific style of 3d games are actually very popular comparitively. Likely end up the best selling of the 3D games on a single console.

 

[Gleethor]

Obviously nobody would've like the game if it had been called Super Belda 3D World. Reviewer bias!

 

[K' Dash]

So much ignorance from people that never played 3D World, did they actually got to see the secret worlds? Did they actually finish the game?

I don't see anyone who has played the champions road not say it is one of the best 3D platformers ever made.

 

[scitek]

Glad to see the ol' "if it's not one of the greatest of all-time, it's shit and unplayable" mentality is alive and well.

 

[nkarafo]

I think Yooka-Laylee is criticized because traditional 3D platformers have come so far in regards to correcting the issues of the N64 era, but Playtonic seems to have ignored those corrections to basically be a 1:1 old-school Rare 3D platformer.

With Super Mario 3D World, it's not being ticketed for "archaic" design choices because the game is built very specifically to work within its confines: fixed camera, 8-way movement, smaller level sizes, and so on. It's never so much of an annoyance and the level design/gameplay shines above all else.

A lot of YL reviews focus on its archaic design choices because the problems that existed then are too great to not be ignored. They can't ignore a wonky camera, how Yooka and Layle are controlled, the humongous worlds, and so on.

Y-L was built from the ground up embracing the past and using Banjo-Kazooie and old 3D platformers as a blueprint, while Super Mario 3D World improves upon the "2D into 3D" formula from Mario 3D Land, expanding it from its obviously "made-for-portable" approach (which may explain the "archaic" slant) and bumping it up some more to be more versatile on a home console.

Well, i can't agree that a certain design choice (collectathon in this case) automatically takes points away from a game. It should be a genre thing. You either like the genre or not. I don't like sports games but i'm not going to criticize them for being sport games. A 10/10 sport game can exist. So can a collectathon.

Not saying Y-L is a 10/10 one, it certainly isn't. But taking points away just for the fact that it is a collectathon is wrong. Some people prefer those games. I also love the big explorable worlds. It's a different kind of game that some people who have more free time like to spend time with.

This is a similar thing like DOOM and Quake style puzzle/complex level designs. I wish this genre of games would make a big come back. But it's never going to happen because the mainstream will always complain about getting lost or not figuring out where to go. But trying to figure out the way and testing your navigation skills is just a different style of games that many people miss.

 

[Calamari41]

Good to see Spieler Eins in this thread, still fighting the fight.

Every 3D World thread for almost 4 solid years now.

 

[TwistedFreeze]

I can understand not liking a game or even hating it but, for God's sake, at least make points that make sense. There's a difference between archaic and old. Fixed camera angles and holding a button to run are both old, yes, but not archaic because they both work rather well and are designed for them. Archaic is something old that simply can not or does not work well and has been done a lot better since it was introduced

 

[Camwi]

3DS was a bad system with a lot of problems at launch yet it had Pokemon and shit so it turned around. The flagship game for home Nintendo consoles is mainly 3D Mario, yet their more powerful system to date had this wiiware-tier game that no one asked for as their holiday title. If instead it was Galaxy 3 or an adventure Mario then Wii U would have filled a similar niche than the Wii compared to its more powerful competitors but nope, total failure. Don't give me that "but it's pure distilled platforming", Galaxy did that and didn't feel like trash to control, hell their first 3D game felt better to control, think about it

There's nothing wrong with the controls in that game, running or not. Clearly there's something wrong with you, though.

 

[TheRedSnifit]

Every 3D World thread for almost 4 solid years now.

Man, I wish I could find those gifs people made of him back in the review thread. Seems they've all expired.

Oh well, at least we have this:

 

[Huge Succeeded]

The quality of game design discussion on GAF since the Switch dropped has me feeling like Segata Sanshiro up in this bitch

OP, you don't know what the word archaic means? Then why the fuck you using it?

 

[Raven77]

I actually despise 3D World. It is a terrible follow up to the incredible creative majesty that are the Galaxy games. In fact, it takes everything that made the Galaxy games so great (exploration, gravity letting you swing all over the planets, the freedom) and gets rid of nearly all of it.

I have been playing Mario since I was 6 years old when it first released, i've played every single Mario game and beaten nearly all of them. This isn't me bragging, I only say this because 3D World is the only one that has frustrated me and bored me to the point of putting it down halfway through and never going back.

It's archaic yes, but I don't feel that is the games biggest fault. The real problem is that the worlds are not interesting, there is little exploration, the puzzles / platforming can be frustrating instead of fun and challenging.

This is all just my OPINION and I respect those who really love it and I can see the reasons why. For me though, it just didn't work.

 

[andymcc]

The quality of game design discussion on GAF since the Switch dropped has me feeling like Segata Sanshiro up in this bitch

OP, you don't know what the word archaic means? Then why the fuck you using it?

Too bad he isn't here to expose the truth of Rare's game design as always being bad.

 

[jstripes]

Thinly-veiled "why do they get a free pass" bullshit again. Then again this "archaic" thing is also nonsense in the first place.

Also, some people really, really hate their nostalgia being called into question.

It's like, I can fondly look back at the cartoons I enjoyed as a kid and still admit from a modern perspective they weren't very good. Some people can't, and refuse to even consider the notion.

I know, but it's the game I wanted. This felt like a (very safe) half-step to a multiplayer 3D mario with traditional 3D level design. Single player feels lacking but multiplayer works. I want both to work great, it would be a challenge, I thought maybe they could pull it off but seems like they're just avoiding it.

They didn't make the game for you.

I bet you'll be thrilled to learn the Final Fantasy VII remake isn't turn-based.

 

[Mr-Joker]

So, many reviewers complained about Yooka Laylee's "archaic" design right? What i don't understand though is, why isn't Mario 3D World bashed in reviews for the same reason?

People complain about the camera in Y-L. Sure, it's not perfect. But at least it lets you control it in order to see the environment. Mario 3D World's camera doesn't let you see areas behind you. Like at all. It's a restrictive, isometric perspective that most of the times can't even be adjusted to see your surroundings. And no, it isn't made this way for you to see better. One of the reasons i don't enjoy this game is because i can't see where i want to see. This game could have 2D isometric graphics and it would make no difference.

And how about the controls? Yooka Laylee at least respects the analog stick technology. Mario 3D World doesn't care, it could use the D-Pad and there would be no difference. You even press "B" to run. That's like the most archaic you can be.

So my question is, why a 3D game, that poses as a 3D platformer and even has 3D in it's title and plays like an isometric 2D SNES game isn't considered archaic but Yooka-Laylee that plays like a 3D N64 platformer is?

You should look harder because people do complain about the camera in 3D World as it becomes problematic with 4 players.

And as for the holding "B" to run, you forget two things;

1, The 3D Land/World series is basically 2D Mario games but in 3D environment.

2, The game can be played using the Wiimote so Nintendo had to create a control scheme that was interchangeable for all controller which mean the addition of the run button.

3, By adding the Run button the player also learn that attack is also mapped to it and can use it when needed, this is why Rosalina is unlockable at the end of the game because she comes with an attack, which also act as a double jump, by default so the player will have learnt mastery of the attack button.

4, The 3D Land/World series is designed to teach players how to play a 2D and 3D Mario game.

Is Mario 3D World going to get a port for the Switch?

Doubtful as there were levels and gimmicks that were tied to the gamepad, like blowing into the mic and touching the pad to pull out blocks.

 

[MrBadger]

Doubtful as there were levels and gimmicks that were tied to the gamepad, like blowing into the mic and touching the pad to pull out blocks.

There was only like one or two, and they were shit. I'd take a port without them, or they could do what Rayman Legends did and adapt them

 

[Velocity:Design:Comfort]

3DS was a bad system with a lot of problems at launch yet it had Pokemon and shit so it turned around. The flagship game for home Nintendo consoles is mainly 3D Mario, yet their more powerful system to date had this wiiware-tier game that no one asked for as their holiday title. If instead it was Galaxy 3 or an adventure Mario then Wii U would have filled a similar niche than the Wii compared to its more powerful competitors but nope, total failure. Don't give me that "but it's pure distilled platforming", Galaxy did that and didn't feel like trash to control, hell their first 3D game felt better to control, think about it

This has to be a joke

 

[TwistedFreeze]

This has to be a joke

Considering the kind of posts he has here and had on IGN, I sincerely doubt that he is

 

[Calamari41]

I actually despise 3D World. It is a terrible follow up to the incredible creative majesty that are the Galaxy games. In fact, it takes everything that made the Galaxy games so great (exploration, gravity letting you swing all over the planets, the freedom) and gets rid of nearly all of it.

I have been playing Mario since I was 6 years old when it first released, i've played every single Mario game and beaten nearly all of them. This isn't me bragging, I only say this because 3D World is the only one that has frustrated me and bored me to the point of putting it down halfway through and never going back.

It's archaic yes, but I don't feel that is the games biggest fault. The real problem is that the worlds are not interesting, there is little exploration, the puzzles / platforming can be frustrating instead of fun and challenging.

This is all just my OPINION and I respect those who really love it and I can see the reasons why. For me though, it just didn't work.

It's not a follow up to the Galaxy games, though. It's a follow up to 3D Land, a game in a completely different series.

Odyssey is the follow up to Galaxy.

 

[kitchenmotors]

3DS was a bad system with a lot of problems at launch yet it had Pokemon and shit so it turned around. The flagship game for home Nintendo consoles is mainly 3D Mario, yet their more powerful system to date had this wiiware-tier game that no one asked for as their holiday title. If instead it was Galaxy 3 or an adventure Mario then Wii U would have filled a similar niche than the Wii compared to its more powerful competitors but nope, total failure. Don't give me that "but it's pure distilled platforming", Galaxy did that and didn't feel like trash to control, hell their first 3D game felt better to control, think about it

You're just straight up trolling and adding nothing to the discussion.

It's trash.

 

[royox]

Mario 3D World WAS criticized a lot.
Before its release.
Due to its "archaincness".

Than people/reviewers played it.

And it was still an archaic game with 8 directions instead of 360°, no challenge except the last 5% of the game, sloooow even when pressing B and controls and overall platforming were dumbed down if compared with previous 3D marios.

But it was the only "3D" Mario the WiiU had so it was received like it was the 2nd coming of Jesuschrist.

Fun with friends because EVERYTHING is fun with friends but not a game I enjoyed playing solo.

 

[TwistedFreeze]

It's not a follow up to the Galaxy games, though. It's a follow up to 3D Land, a game in a completely different series.

Odyssey is the follow up to Galaxy.

I'd argue Odyssey is more of a follow up to 64 and, to an extent, Sunshine. Sunshine lacked the open ended design of 64 and even some of the freedom, despite how people often group it with 64, whereas Odyssey takes what 64 had and amps it to 11, and Galaxy was about as linear as 3D Land / 3D World

 

[Chmpocalypse]

Well one is a top tier polished Mario platformer and one is a third rate inferior Banjo wannabe with worse controls and tons of glitches and jank. That could be it.

"Top tier"

Lol

I've played it. Not even close.

 

[Huge Succeeded]

Odyssey is the follow up to Galaxy.

Nintendo considers Oddysey to be a followup to Sunshine and 64, and 3D Land/World to be in the same vein of Mario game as Galaxy 1 and 2.

 

[TwistedFreeze]

And it was still an archaic game with 8 directions instead of 360°, no challenge except the last 5% of the game, sloooow even when pressing B and controls and overall platforming were dumbed down if compared with previous 3D marios.

But it was the only "3D" Mario the WiiU had so it was received like it was the 2nd coming of Jesuschrist.

Fun with friends because EVERYTHING is fun with friends but not a game I enjoyed playing solo.

Ahh...yes, it got that mythical Nintendo pass, just like everything else Nintendo made this gen

 

[Huge Succeeded]

"Top tier"

Lol

I've played it. Not even close.

relative to what? platformers, or other Mario games? 3D World is a solid, well-built game and unless you live in a dimension where 3D platforming isn't a dead genre I'm sure you can't point out very many competitors for the damn thing