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[aGuyInaBearSuit]

3D World just feels good to play. I'm only like two hours into YL, but the platforming feels comparatively sluggish and floaty, and as many have mentioned, the camera is a bit of a disaster. Not sure if I'll even continue with it.

 

[freethoughtbubble]

Simpler, yes, but also more restrictive. I had the same issue with Galaxy but 3D World restricted the controls even further. I can't put my finger on it but it didn't flow as well. In Mario 64 i would aimlessly jump around outside the castle just because it felt so good to control. I didn't feel the same with 3D World.

Restrictive is the word i would use to describe Mario 3D world as a whole then. I guess it's my fault for expecting a proper 3D game and not one with 3D graphics that tries to be the evolution of the 2D Mario games or whatever people say it is.

It is your fault, yes. Disliking a game on its own merits is one thing, but disliking one because you came in expecting another is just a failure of research.

Why is this being repeatedly quoted as something horrendous? You're supposed to get up to the Pagie and then continue along across the platform. If you just do that instead of trying to intentionally break the camera by jumping between the two segments then it's not a problem.

You call that trying to break the game? It's just futzing around--one of the joys of any good platformer. I do that kind of stuff all the time in any game with jumping and gaps, and I'm not interested in a game that requires me to "stay on the path" or that freaks out when I don't.

 

[Lucky Seven]

It's okay when Nintendo does it!

Spoiler

/s

 

[Nervous Sausage]

Genuinely perplexed at people calling the camera in yookalaylee terrible. It literally functions exactly the same as every other game with a controllable 3rd person camera and i've yet to have an issue. Maybe learn to use a controller properly before slagging the game for no good reason.

 

[XandBosch]

This thread is getting weird now. People are calling 3D World a bad game just because of the type of game it is? What the hell?

That's like saying Doom was a bad game because it was a first person shooter.

Nintendo get criticism for doing the same thing over and over, yet when they do something people don't like or expect they get criticized because it wasn't that "other thing".

"3D World is bad because it wasn't a true 3D Mario game" - okay, but it was at least new for a console Mario game, and what it DID try to be it more than excelled at. The game is flawless. You might not like the camera, but it was a design decision and it doesn't make it a bad game, the game is fine with the way the camera is.

 

[Secret Fawful]

This speaks for itself

I don't see a huge problem here.

The only time the camera is a problem in Y-L is when it switches direction 180 degrees in certain places for no reason, but that can be patched and fixed so.

Maybe camera issues don't bother me like a lot of people, though? I tend to play old platformers like Pandemonium all the time anyway so.

 

[Lizardus]

I don't know what you are trying to say but most FPS games control the same more or less, regardless if they are linear or open world. I haven't played these two particular games though.

Seems to me like you're comparing apples to oranges. 3D World wasn't meant to be like SM64 and its apparent. Thats why I didn't buy it.

In the OP, you are treating camera and the controls as if they exist in a vacuum, instead of seeing how they work together with the gameplay and the level design.

Also, ARMA controls nothing like CoD, unless you mean buttons (left click to shoot, right click to ADS).

 

[Polioliolio]

This speaks for itself

If that's not an edit, that's pretty bad, and they need to fix it. I don't remember Banjo or other 3D platformers, like Mario 64, having issues quite like that.

On the other hand, love the look of the game. Can't wait to play it.

 

[Glass Shark]

.

 

[XandBosch]

3D Land and 3D World are among the best Mario games ever made, that easily puts them at the top of the list for best platformers ever.

I haven't gotten far enough in Yooka-Laylee to really make a judgement about it, but my first impression is that the worlds may be too large for their own good.

Yes.

 

[NOLA_Gaffer]

From Nintendo

I love that chart so so much because it kicks sand in the face of the folks that claim Super Mario 3D World "isn't a real 3D Mario game like Galaxy was".

 

[nkarafo]

If that's not an edit, that's pretty bad, and they need to fix it. I don't remember Banjo or other 3D platformers, like Mario 64, having issues quite like that.

On the other hand, love the look of the game. Can't wait to play it.

Question is, how repeatable is this bug? How many areas are affected by this behavior?

I'm 10+ hours in the game and this never happened to me.

 

[Camjo-Z]

You call that trying to break the game? It's just futzing around--one of the joys of any good platformer. I do that kind of stuff all the time in any game with jumping and gaps, and I'm not interested in a game that requires me to "stay on the path" or freaks out when I don't.

Even if you insist on jumping and fall down at that part because of the camera, you can just climb back up in 5 seconds (and falling matters even less once you get a late-game ability). It's not a big deal.

 

[Gestault]

Even if you insist on jumping and fall down at that part because of the camera, you can just climb back up in 5 seconds (and falling matters even less once you get a late-game ability). It's not a big deal.

Whether or not it's "a big deal" isn't the same as it not being annoying, or a problem in how they mapped out the camera. A whole range of reviews/players noticed camera issues, so it's not isolated enough to brush off.

People want platformers to have tight controls and camerawork. Saying "you can try it again" when the issue seems to come from the game's design is just embracing low standards. People will have different threshholds for when that bothers them, but the scenario in that gif would annoy me.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

I complained about it when it was called Super Mario 3D Land, but World's addition of multiplayer at least made things like the fixed overhead camera the only reasonable choice.

 

[I Wanna Be The Guy]

If that's not an edit, that's pretty bad, and they need to fix it. I don't remember Banjo or other 3D platformers, like Mario 64, having issues quite like that.

On the other hand, love the look of the game. Can't wait to play it.

No, Mario 64 had camera issues in a league of its own. Try going back and playing it. Haven't played YL but I'll be surprised if the camera is half as bad as it is in Mario 64.

 

[Crayolan]

You heard it here first folks, pressing B to run is now archaic.

 

[Calamari41]

Why is this being repeatedly quoted as something horrendous? You're supposed to get up to the Pagie and then continue along across the platform. If you just do that instead of trying to intentionally break the camera by jumping between the two segments then it's not a problem.

The first jump cut comes when the character is still completely over the platform.

I'm not saying that the camera kills the game, I haven't played it, but what happens in that gif doesn't represent a polished game like 3D World.

 

[nkarafo]

No, Mario 64 had camera issues in a league of its own. Try going back and playing it. Haven't played YL but I'll be surprised if the camera is half as bad as it is in Mario 64.

In what way is Mario 64's camera so bad?

I don't understand what people mean when they say the camera is bad in such games. It's free roaming, you control it most of the time.

Also, is there even a free roaming platform game with a good camera?

Personally, i never had problems with cameras in these types of games. At least not as many for me to complain. As long as i can control it, i'm good. If it's a bad view it's because i made it that way. I guess i'm one of the few people who actually prefers to control the camera instead of relying in automatic ones.

 

[Camjo-Z]

The first jump cut comes when the character is still completely over the platform.

I'm not saying that the camera kills the game, I haven't played it, but what happens in that gif doesn't represent a polished game like 3D World.

Well yeah, 3D World's levels are only designed to be seen from a specific angle anyway. I'm not even sure what the OP is talking about there.

 

[Gestault]

In what way is Mario 64's camera so bad?

I don't understand what people mean when they say the camera is bad in such games. It's free roaming, you control it most of the time.

Also, is there even a free roaming platform game with a good camera?

Personally, i never had problems with cameras in these types of games. At least not as many for me to complain. As long as i can control it, i'm good. If it's a bad view it's because i made it that way. I guess i'm one of the few people who actually prefers to control the camera instead of relying in automatic ones.

You may be misunderstanding people's comments then; generally when people talk about camera issues, it's because the game insists on controlling the camera in a way that causes problems. It's specifically because they don't have control that it comes up.

Mario 64 was basically the best 3D camera for years after it came out, but if you play it now, you'll notice issues where it hangs on something in the environment, or changes on its own during a player motion and causes control problems, or just tries to focus on something where you have to fight the auto-movement to get it pointed in the right direction.

 

[Mega]

I'm not a 3D World hater by any means, but I get the complaints about its controls. The slowish running speed, shorter jump height and distance, the momentum, Mario's sense of weight... it all feels a lot heavier and limited compared to not just 64/Sunshine/Galaxy, but also the pre-NSMB 2D Marios (NSMB has its own set of quirks). I think it's the closest Mario has come to feeling like a fat plumber... almost slow and ordinary vs acrobatic and superhuman-like.

Wait...is this a trailer with cuts or real footage of how the camera behaves? Because that's not "archaic" at all. It's just bad.

It reminds me of the old Resident Evils and Final Fantasies on PS1, games with prerendered backgrounds where you expected that to happen and weren't doing twitch platforming in an open 3D world. That's terrible.

 

[boiled goose]

God I hate that graph so much. Galaxy is part of the 64 series, c'mon Nintendo. Only 3D Land and 3D World are their own thing.

Nope. Sandbox levels vs linear objectives. Come on son.

3d land is at it's essence the same as the galaxy games

 

[Onaco]

Levels in 3D World are short, repetitive and boring, giving little challenge to have the player think about the world around them due to an archaic timer. Much like the New Super Mario Bros. Series.

Yooka-Laylee invites exploration and depth to each world, with puzzles that don't always have a clear answer, plus new moves to keep the game feeling fresh.

Spoiler

I defended Yooka-Laylee,
burn me at the stake.

 

[andymcc]

Nope. Sandbox levels vs linear objectives. Come on son.

3d land is at it's essence the same as the galaxy games

Right. It's weird because I remember some vocal Galaxy critics complaining that it was too linear for their tastes in comparison to Mario 64. There is more in common with Galaxy and 3D World than Galaxy and 64/Sunshine.

 

[Gestault]

It reminds me of the old Resident Evils and Final Fantasies on PS1, games with prerendered backgrounds where you expected that to happen and weren't doing twitch platforming in an open 3D world. That's terrible.

Plus the RE games had universal (as opposed to camera-dependent) controls, so when the camera changed positions, your inputs would stay the same. Those "tank controls" had a purpose at the time even if they can feel restrictive now. Camera angles were deliberate, even when they sometimes seemed disorienting (especially RE1).

 

[Dremorak]

Yooka Laylee actually does have sections where the camera is locked so you can't say their camera is better based on that fact. Also the levels in SM3DW weren't designed for you to go backwards, they are obstacle courses, not about exploration. Some parts of certain levels open up a liiitle bit, but then the camera pulls back to accommodate

 

[Calamari41]

In what way is Mario 64's camera so bad?

I don't understand what people mean when they say the camera is bad in such games. It's free roaming, you control it most of the time.

Also, is there even a free roaming platform game with a good camera?

Personally, i never had problems with cameras in these types of games. At least not as many for me to complain. As long as i can control it, i'm good. If it's a bad view it's because i made it that way. I guess i'm one of the few people who actually prefers to control the camera instead of relying in automatic ones.

It's only "bad" in the sense that it is very primitive, which makes sense as it was one of the first attempts at a controllable, independent 3D camera. It only moves in jumps, you can't fine-tune its placement like you can in later games, and it has some overt issues with environment collision.

One might use the word "archaic" to describe it.

 

[Mohasus]

Question is, how repeatable is this bug? How many areas are affected by this behavior?

I'm 10+ hours in the game and this never happened to me.

It happened to me a few times and I haven't played that much (2 hours so far). One of the times was during the first boss fight. I was holding the left stick down to come back, then the camera changes to the opposite angle and so does my running direction. It is annoying.

 

[Eusis]

You heard it here first folks, pressing B to run is now archaic.

The logic is that analog is SUPPOSED to handle all degrees of movement, but in practice no one wants to struggle to hold the stick at half distance to "walk" and if anything it's probably more similar to how we actually move to have to hold a button; you knowingly go into a different stance and EXERT yourself to run while walking is a more casual movement, so needing to hold a button down is about as close to replicating that as you can get with a standard controller. Perhaps if they could redesign analog sticks to have two varying resistances or something so you'd have a soft boundary for normal speed movement and a hard boundary for when you want to run, but that's probably an engineering nightmare (especially for long term durability in a constantly used device) so easier to just to relegate running and dashing to a button, if not just design around always running (which... most of us probably do in Mario games anyway.)

And I'm getting the impression people might have been expecting a more sandbox game with 3D World? Or did you guys just want that instead? Because for the former it was blindingly obvious what it was going to be from 3D Land and by proxy the name, along with all screens and footage from before release. My worry was always more that they were abandoning the sand box design and fortunately Odyssey's proving that wrong, so ESPECIALLY in light of this bit of hindsight I can appreciate 3D World for what it is.

 

[Polioliolio]

No, Mario 64 had camera issues in a league of its own. Try going back and playing it. Haven't played YL but I'll be surprised if the camera is half as bad as it is in Mario 64.

Usually in that situation (in say Mario 64 or Banjo), the camera might start swinging around awkwardly, but for it to immediately cut to another position, is the problem, I think.

 

[LordKasual]

This speaks for itself

?????

...okay seriously what the hell is everyone looking at that's so bad

the player is making zero attempt to go the path and the camera is following him, what am i missing here

 

[Calamari41]

?????

...okay seriously what the hell is everyone looking at that's so bad

the player is making zero attempt to go the path and the camera is following him, what am i missing here

What are you talking about? The first big camera jump happens while the player is firmly over the platform... you even see the shadow. Everything after that, the player "making zero attempt to go the path," is a result of the camera instantly cutting all over the place.

 

[Type40]

?????

...okay seriously what the hell is everyone looking at that's so bad

the player is making zero attempt to go the path and the camera is following him, what am i missing here

when he passes the metal cage, the camera changes positions very quickly. But the analog stick is still being pressed to move to the left, when the camera shifts that causes him to accidentally run off of the plank, instead of continuing down the wooden ramp.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

The truth of the matter here is that Banjo was never a great game, so making something exactly like it in 2017 comes out looking bad.

3D World is "archaic", but its based in something that was already really good, so using that as a template to build around results in what is still a good game in 2017.

In what way is Mario 64's camera so bad?

I don't understand what people mean when they say the camera is bad in such games. It's free roaming, you control it most of the time.

Also, is there even a free roaming platform game with a good camera?

Personally, i never had problems with cameras in these types of games. At least not as many for me to complain. As long as i can control it, i'm good. If it's a bad view it's because i made it that way. I guess i'm one of the few people who actually prefers to control the camera instead of relying in automatic ones.

There are places in games like tight corridors that even free roaming cameras have trouble with.

The main time I remember the camera being an issue in Mario 64 is when you're chasing that rabbit around in the basement area. I'm sure there are more times I'm forgetting, but I tend to be less judgmental about cameras from that era considering that most developers were just figuring out how to make cameras work in a 3D space.

 

[lensoftruth]

Neither are archaic.

3d World has just as much creativity is BOTW too.

 

[BGBW]

That doesn't make sense. Why would Galaxy not be with Sunshine and 64. Galaxy 2 I could see since there is no overworld.

Because Galaxy and Galaxy 2 are both linear games and basically the foundation for the direction 3D Land and World took.

People were saying this before Nintendo released the graph. And now these people are considered the top 1% most intelligent, beautiful, magnificent people in the world because of just how right they were.

 

[Sparrowhawk]

I love both games, but I really wish 3D World had true 3D movement instead of that eight direction crap.

 

[Mega]

The truth of the matter here is that Banjo was never a great game, so making something exactly like it in 2017 comes out looking bad.

That's not a truth, it's an opinion and not a widely supported one by the critics and gamers of the time when it released. Banjo was widely regarded as the next best thing since Mario 64 when it came out and earned almost unanimous praise. I don't care if you personally didn't like it (I think it's kind of boring now myself), but don't revise history as it actually happened.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

That's not a truth, it's an opinion and not a widely supported one by the critics and gamers of the time when it released. Banjo was widely regarded as the next best thing since Mario 64 when it came out and earned almost unanimous praise. I don't care if you personally didn't like it (I think it's kind of boring now myself), but don't revise history as it actually happened.

It doesn't hold up and there have been plenty of times when games have been revered in their era and later judged more harshly.

I don't care if it was a critical hit at the time. It was mediocre at best and always has been. Popular opinion doesn't mean something is good. If that were true Avatar would be one of the greatest movies of all time, and that too is boring as shit.

 

[To Far Away Times]

Gameplay, design and gamefeel in 3D World are better than like 99.9% of popular games.

That's why it's a world class game.

Yookla Laylee essentially clones and tries to leverage the Banjo Kazooie brand. Banjo Kazooie always lived in the shadow of Mario 64, having come years after, not doing a whole lot different, and not being nearly as good.

Having full 3D movement or a Free Camera is not part of some checklist that needs to be marked off. Switching out the 8 way movement or fixed camera but leaving everything else the same in 3D World would make it a lesser experience.

 

[Velocity:Design:Comfort]

It doesn't hold up and there have been plenty of times when games have been revered in their era and later judged more harshly.

I don't care if it was a critical hit at the time. It was mediocre at best and always has been.

Because you want to force your opinion as if it's a fact and don't care when people call you out. BK and BT are two of the best games ever made. Doesn't hold up is an opinion.

 

[LordKasual]

What are you talking about? The first big camera jump happens while the player is firmly over the platform... you even see the shadow. Everything after that, the player "making zero attempt to go the path," is a result of the camera instantly cutting all over the place.

....

....you know it's really odd, before you two said that I just assumed those were cuts in the gif, and the level looked continuous.

 

[Red Devil]

Joke thread?

 

[HeatBoost]

In terms on successfully delivering what it set out to be, 3D World does a great job. If you personally don't like what it set out to be, then that's your cross to bear.

Meanwhile Yooka-Laylee seems to have done a questionable job at what it said out to be.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

Because you want to force your opinion as if it's a fact and don't care when people call you out. BK and BT are two of the best games ever made. Doesn't hold up is an opinion.

Nobody called me out on anything. All that dude did was push the idea that popularity = quality. When there are dozens, if not hundreds of examples where that idea falls flat.

Calling me out would be giving me some solid reasoning as to why they're not bad games. Not essentially falling back on "Well a lot of people like it, so you're wrong."

And I said I don't care if something is a critical hit, because it's meaningless. Tons of bad shit gets decent ratings and there are plenty of instances where shit gets panned right off the bat only to later be regarded as a classic.

 

[Mega]

It doesn't hold up and there have been plenty of times when games have been revered in their era and later judged more harshly.

Yes, but that's completely different from "it was never good," a bold statement that holds no water.

I don't care if it was a critical hit at the time. It was mediocre at best and always has been. Popular opinion doesn't mean something is good. If that were true Avatar would be one of the greatest movies of all time, and that too is boring as shit.

You have a strong opinion, that's nice, but it's still something the industry and gamers of the late 90s/early 00s disagree with you on. Look, if I hated the game with every fiber of my being in 1998, I still wouldn't be going around spouting nonsense that "it was never good, period!!" as if I'm the final authority on the matter. Determining whether something really was good is, believe it or not, highly dependent on the critiques and overall consensus of the people who experienced it at the time it was new and relevant. if you disagree so much, then what other measures are there?

Put another way, if I think Witcher 3, TLOU, MGSV are all crap, can I really go around saying "they were never ever any good, fuck those pieces of shit, no one *really* liked it, trust me!!"? How does that make any sense? It just makes one come off as a self-important crazy person.

edit: I'm not saying popularity = quality. I'm saying the people who played the game in the 90s/00s by and large thought it was excellent, hence its popularity.

 

[Mushroomer25]

Joke thread?

Tragically, no. YL has driven some people to the brink of madness.

 

[ultratruman]

If 3D World is archaic, Yooka-Laylee is primeval.

 

[Calamari41]

....

....you know it's really odd, before you two said that I just assumed those were cuts in the gif, and the level looked continuous.

Haha yeah, that's why I initially asked if the gif was from a trailer or something.