Bayonetta out on Steam (4K, dual audio), $19.99, PC launch trailer, dev diary
- Thread starter NeoRaider
- Start date
hey_it's_that_dog
benevolent sexism
Playing it from the start for the first time in many years, I can see how a newcomer wouldn't immediately see why everyone raves about it. It takes a little while before you can find/buy weapons, techniques and accessories that make the gameplay varied and creative. I don't really focus on the combo count, I just want to do as much damage and take as little damage as possible while staying in the thick of combat as much as possible.
Personally, I think the push/pull of combos + timely evasion is a great hook on its own, but I understand how someone could get bored of the starting loadout before they get to the more interesting equipment.
Well, that looks great. One of those moves is straight out of Tekken 3's EG lol but there's some cool stuff there.
How hard is it to pull off something approaching that?
Thanks, I'll give the first one another try sometime - maybe with a walkthrough.
Just think how much better it might have done if they didn't dump it out so soon to Nier =\
Really don't get Sega's release strategy with this one.
not as hard as games like dmc
I mean I probably can't pull off fancy combo videos but the controls make it really easy to do amazing stuff in the game if you're willing to be creative
Nabs
Member
They rode the Platinum Wave™. I can't call it a bad decision.
Now to see how long it takes before we get more. More Platinum, and even more Sega.
Majukun
Member
the inputs by themselves are easy, with a little practice needed for the dodge offset, but there are tons of them and most of those combo work on extremely precise timing, if you are a noob,it woul probably take you a while to do something like that,but you can still combo and juggle with just a little practice
also it uses a late-game accessory that makes you activate witch time at will
wow, it's 2009 all over again.
tomwhite2004
Member
Its very difficult (at least for a scrub like me) and takes great timing and execution, not to mention knowledge of the move set (which is massive), but thats the point of such a deep and varied system and why it is still so highly regarded.
To get to that level will take many runs through of the game, you should really regard your first go as a big tutorial or learning experience and a way to buy most of the moves and weapons, no need to use a walkthrough.
Feels like that's asking a lot lol. Still fun towards the middle-to-end of the first run?
I'm pretty sure they do. BUT, if you're able to play the game on hard, I recommend trying all the Alfheims on hard too. You will have to llearn things that you wouldn't need to do that will be helpful for the harder difficulter.
Yes they do
Majukun
Member
technically it's fun from the first minute
if you are dcent at action games,you should be ok by the middle of the game..although unlocking the entire arsenal takes probably more than just one run...but the other difficulty levels are there for a reason.
aww shit I didn't know that
yeah I'm doing this one that asks me to do like 8 torture moves and I'm having difficulty gaining enough magic to pull them off fast enough while not getting hit
I think I did most of them on normal when I played it on the ps3, crazy that I still find new things now
A lot of the fun of the game, and all the games in this sub-genre, come from their replayability. Your first run will more than anything be a practice run that eases you into the different moves, weapons, enemies and so on that you can fight. On subsequent runs you'll have a better grasp at the game and the harder difficulties actually change the encounters so that you fight harder enemies much earlier in the game.
You'll find that the enjoyment you get out of playing this game comes from how much effort you put into it.
Man, if you aren't sold by the time you hit Grace and Glory, I don't think you're ever gonna click with Bayo. That said, that's not until Ch. 5, and I think Fortitudo in Ch 4 is probably a big roadblock for people, as it's not a very straightforward boss fight and can be frustrating.
I didn't like bayo on my first playthrough either on the ps3 (well i liked it, but didn't like it as much as i thought), honestly there are way too many cutscenes so the pacing is off, I didn't like it until my hard playthrough and skipping all the cutscenes
That's why lenny face.
You know, now playing this, I'm finding the regular enemies a lot harder than DMC 3/4.
People accuse Bayo about being an easier game because of a button mapped specifically to dodge, but the aggression levels of a regular encounter in DMC 3/4 aren't anywhere near what I'm getting hit by in Bayonetta, even on Dante Must Die in part 3.
(I hate DMD in 3 because regular fights take forever once they hit you with Devil Trigger... bosses are great though... DMD in 4 was a lot better even though I couldn't really tell when someone used devil trigger lol)
I mean, functionally, dodge is kind of the same as DMC's jump button, but I suspect not many people know that jump has invul frames going up on the first jump in DMC...
I mean, I didn't until I watched a guide.
(I mean... I remember that you can't cancel some animations with jump, so just be sure to never over commit and you should be good)
That said, execution is a lot harder in DMC... especially Dante in 4.
(this is why I liked Nero: you just hold the gun button to win)
I'm not sure about G&G being the point where people are sold on the game. When I first played Bayo, I actually quit quite early (I think partway through Chapter 6?). When I played it almost a year later, it quickly became my favorite game of all time.
The main reason I quit initially was because everything between Chapter 3 and Chapter 5 was just exhausting. The game constantly ramps up the challenge, especially in Chapter 5 (which is crazy long, introduces multiple hard enemies, and has a difficult ending).
After Chapter 5, you get Bat Within, the difficulty plateaus, and the game honestly becomes a lot more inviting. That's when the combat probably starts to click for most people (since the game isn't constantly throwing new shit like Fire Angels at you anymore). If you can make it through Chapter 5 in one piece, you can make it through anything.
On subsequent runs, Ch.3-5 isn't that bad, but they're brutal the first time. That's why I encourage new players to focus on surviving when going through them, because pretty much everyone is going to end up with a Stone award on all 3 their first time. And those Stone awards don't mean that you suck; it just means that Bayonetta is a hard game that gives you a lot of room to become a better player.
The cutscenes in both games sucked a lot of the fun out of them for me when I played them on the Wii U. I only liked the first cutscenes in both, probably because they feature a lot of ya boy Enzo. After that everything fell pretty flat. Bayonetta herself lacks personality and any interesting motivation for doing anything she does and the sidekicks in both games are super annoying. This was a real disappointment to me, since I played MGR before, which has some GOAT cutscenes. DMC1+3 and God Hand have cool or dumb fun stuff going on between the action too. I had a hard time wanting to do well playing Bayo1+2 since I didn't care for the character I was playing or her world at all.
I imagine if I get around to grabbing this port on sale at some point I'll skip the cutscenes and hopefully enjoy it more. I was messing around with dodge offset in Bayo 2 near the end and thought it was a really neat mechanic. But I had a stack of other Wii U games to get to then and really just wanted to finish it and move on.
nailbombxx
Member
Yeah, chapter 5 is where the game starts to become absolutely amazing. At that point you begin to constantly meet new challenging enemies and unlock new weapons and abilities at a very addicting pace.
Also, Bayonetta is the only action game where you can use nunchaku that shoot bullets. I wonder how many people whove played Bayonetta actually know that weapon exists lol. Its definitely my favorite.
EDIT:
I am probably as big of a fan of Bayonetta as they come and I don't really like the characters or the dialog at all. Most cutscenes are pretty skippable but I do think some of the action scenes are of the classic cuhrazy Devil May Cry variety so there's definitely something there. I found the lore about the angels and the demons far more fasicnating than the plot and the characters.
Also, Bayonetta is the only action game where you can use nunchaku that shoot bullets. I wonder how many people whove played Bayonetta actually know that weapon exists lol. Its definitely my favorite.
EDIT:
I am probably as big of a fan of Bayonetta as they come and I don't really like the characters or the dialog at all. Most cutscenes are pretty skippable but I do think some of the action scenes are of the classic cuhrazy Devil May Cry variety so there's definitely something there. I found the lore about the angels and the demons far more fasicnating than the plot and the characters.
Crazy Diamond
Member
Got it. Can't wait to start this weekend.
rocket-launcher tonfa are up there
nailbombxx
Member
The glitch that you can do with those is hilarious.
EDIT:
Wow, this is very true. I find myself rolling my eyes at many of the cutscenes but her voice during actual gameplay is very fitting. Weird how that works.
To be fair, it's very hard to overcome the last cutscene in that game, which is amazing and I even watch it on youtube from time to time lol
I feel like Bayonetta's personality is more in the gameplay than it is in the stuff you don't control.
Disclaimer: I don't own the PC version
yet.
Try hitting select during the loading screen. On the Wii U version that would let you stay in practice mode. Or was that just Bayonetta 2...
nailbombxx
Member
Press the back button during a loading screen I think.
Hitting Tab will let you stay in the loading screen, but you have to be fast.
Vigilant Gambit
Member
Shuraba + Durga (flame mode): PPP[K][K][K] (that's 3 fully charged kicks, so you get 3 max level bombs. best damage in the game without glitches
deadscreensky
Member
MAYBE
I will sort of give you the fact that the worst parts of Bayonetta were clearly inspired by God of War. There's nothing especially fun or interesting about fighting giant monsters, that's poorly suited to a deep combat system. (Same disease afflicted Devil May Cry 4, actually.) And obviously QTEs are nearly always trash tier game design. Boring!
But that's okay, because those giant bosses are only a very small part of the total Bayonetta package.
For those of you on the fence (or unsure of the combat's depth), I'll repost what I wrote for a previous thread:
Imagine a simple action game which has combos (like DMC, or GoW, or NG - whichever). Let's take a simple combo like punch --> kick --> punch.
In some games, you have to press PKP in quick succession to deliver the combo. Let's bring this up a notch, and allow the player to hold down a button to delay the combo delivery. So, punch --> kick --> hoooooold --> punch. This flexibility in timing is nice, allows you to not jump right into the enemy attack or something, or to time your combo to hit just before the enemy's own attack. Nice, but simple.
Now, let's attach some weapons to your arms and legs. Let's say, automatic pistols. So you can punch and kick, but whenever you hold one a P or a K, your pistols will keep shooting at the enemy. This allows you to continuously stay on the offensive even when you're stalling an attack/combo.
Don't you hate it when some games don't allow you to cancel attacks? Say, if you commit to a combo, you can't back out of it, even if you realize you screwed up and are going to get hit. Let's add a simple design element - you can dodge/cancel any attack, whenever. Cool, huh? So, you can PKP, or PKhooooooldP, or PKdodge --> combo cancelled.
Okay, let's add in the master design element. Let's say you can resume your combo after dodging. PKhooooooldDODGE-->P = finish combo. So not only do you hold control of the timing of the control, not only do you continue maintaining an offensive (via rain of bullets while holding or dodging) throughout, not only can you dodge during a combo, but you can resume your combo right where you left it off. I just blew your minds.
Oh wait, there's one last crucial element I forgot to mention. You can bypass steps in the combo by timing an attack at the same time as a dodge. So, if you dodge RIGHT as you're punching or kicking, they get added up to the combo, without needing to punch or kick. So, dodge(P) --> dodge(K) --> unleash final P move from the combo = giant magic fist, without actually having gone through the early steps of the combo.
Imagine the implications during combat. You're fighting a big baddie. He strikes at you, you dodge. You dodge through the second phase of his attack as well. You've now landed behind him, get in 2 punches. By then, a smaller enemy has approached and jumps at you, you dodge that as well, and unleash the finisher move of a 6-move combo at both of the enemies at the same time. You might have pulled off a complex PPPPKK combo dynamically in the middle of a fight. With a reactive enemy, a 6-move combo can be very hard to pull off. If you're pulling it off while dodging and skipping steps (eg. while you're fighting), it becomes a reality.
That is the essence of Bayonetta's genius. It is, of course, barely scratching the surface.
Imagine a simple action game which has combos (like DMC, or GoW, or NG - whichever). Let's take a simple combo like punch --> kick --> punch.
In some games, you have to press PKP in quick succession to deliver the combo. Let's bring this up a notch, and allow the player to hold down a button to delay the combo delivery. So, punch --> kick --> hoooooold --> punch. This flexibility in timing is nice, allows you to not jump right into the enemy attack or something, or to time your combo to hit just before the enemy's own attack. Nice, but simple.
Now, let's attach some weapons to your arms and legs. Let's say, automatic pistols. So you can punch and kick, but whenever you hold one a P or a K, your pistols will keep shooting at the enemy. This allows you to continuously stay on the offensive even when you're stalling an attack/combo.
Don't you hate it when some games don't allow you to cancel attacks? Say, if you commit to a combo, you can't back out of it, even if you realize you screwed up and are going to get hit. Let's add a simple design element - you can dodge/cancel any attack, whenever. Cool, huh? So, you can PKP, or PKhooooooldP, or PKdodge --> combo cancelled.
Okay, let's add in the master design element. Let's say you can resume your combo after dodging. PKhooooooldDODGE-->P = finish combo. So not only do you hold control of the timing of the control, not only do you continue maintaining an offensive (via rain of bullets while holding or dodging) throughout, not only can you dodge during a combo, but you can resume your combo right where you left it off. I just blew your minds.
Oh wait, there's one last crucial element I forgot to mention. You can bypass steps in the combo by timing an attack at the same time as a dodge. So, if you dodge RIGHT as you're punching or kicking, they get added up to the combo, without needing to punch or kick. So, dodge(P) --> dodge(K) --> unleash final P move from the combo = giant magic fist, without actually having gone through the early steps of the combo.
Imagine the implications during combat. You're fighting a big baddie. He strikes at you, you dodge. You dodge through the second phase of his attack as well. You've now landed behind him, get in 2 punches. By then, a smaller enemy has approached and jumps at you, you dodge that as well, and unleash the finisher move of a 6-move combo at both of the enemies at the same time. You might have pulled off a complex PPPPKK combo dynamically in the middle of a fight. With a reactive enemy, a 6-move combo can be very hard to pull off. If you're pulling it off while dodging and skipping steps (eg. while you're fighting), it becomes a reality.
That is the essence of Bayonetta's genius. It is, of course, barely scratching the surface.
It's time for most of you to visit Saur's Youtube Bayonetta guides. Absolutely 100% essential!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqzztvoVngY&list=PLrwWQGfD4d7F1-fXzodIL1LLARxFEQAhJ
Remember, the REAL game is Non-Stop Climax mode.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqzztvoVngY&list=PLrwWQGfD4d7F1-fXzodIL1LLARxFEQAhJ
Remember, the REAL game is Non-Stop Climax mode.
You need to perform your attacks from a distance and use dodge offset to create distance and avoid attacks without stopping your combo. Wicked Weaves will automatically hit whichever enemy you're targeting, so you can be any distance away from them and those will still connect.
Ah thanks. I tried to do that at first but It was hard to not hit one as it seems to automatically lock on to anything that got close. I'll try again but further away.
nextgeneration
Member
Was Bayonetta a huge seller on consoles, anyone know? 71k on Steam seems respectable. I wonder what kind of sales Sega was expecting for the Steam version.
By far the easiest (although not the most efficient for points or time) way to do this is with the PKP combo and dodge offset. If you're not sure what dodge offset is, it's a technique where you hold the dodge button and punch or kick to maintain your combo while dodging. It also allows you to go through a combo without actually attacking. In this case, you want to dodge offset the first P and the K so that all you get is the final P, which is a wicked weave. If you dodge offset early enough, you won't actually attack at all so you don't need to worry about getting knocked back.
Some alternatives:
- If you're already good at dodge offsetting, (PPK)KK (offset moves in bracket) is more efficient since you get two weaves for five inputs instead of one for three.
- You can technically do this by taunting, dodging and parrying to build meter and then using the <>P or <>K maneuvers, but learning how to dodge offset is probably much easier.
I've just finished chapter 5, but the amount of depth the combos have is insane.
I still suck though.
And it's definitely not beginner-friendly.
The game is hard as fuck. Basically 'git gud or screw off'.
And I feel like the difficulty ramps up way faster than you can keep up with. I currently keep dying to the Grace and Glories at the beginning of chapter 6 and I've basically died my way through chapter 5, and it's not a pleasant experience.
I blame the loading screens. Seriously, there is no time to practice anything if you don't manually stall it and if you don't practice you get bodied. But extending loading times on your own feels so wrong <.<
Seriously. Watch Saur's guide that I posted above and, MOST IMPORTANT FOR ALL PLAYERS, listen out for sound cues. The sound cues are one of the secrets for you to take advantage and pull off some insanity invincible dodging stuff that would make a third person think they are watching some sort of crazy anime.
Everything you learned from God of War and other games, throw that knowledge away. Once you become a badass at Bayonetta, the skills you homage end up making you play ALL 3rd person combat games differently. Differently as in playing those games on a differently level.
Man, I wish for Wonderful 101 on PC right now. That would be the next level of insanity to move onto along with Vanquish.
It "underperformed", yet sold handsomely considering what it was.
God playing this game again after 10 years in the dark ages of no bayo access due to RROD (after my second RROD, I swore I'd never buy another MS console again), it's breaking my heart I didn't get to give this game as much love as it deserved on release day. It's was really shit timing, but the 360 RROD'd right in the middle of my Bayo playthrough. I was so devastated! I loved the hell out of it as a kid, too. It's the only game I can think of that I put 20 hours into yet wasn't even 75% of the way through just because I got addicted to trying to pure platinum each and every stage as I went along.
Now that this and Dead Rising have finally come to PC, I can safely say that the 360 is pretty much dead to me forever now. Nothing really left to port that I care about that hasn't shown up either on PC or elsewhere. The only thing that kinda burns is that the Deadly Premonition port we got is pure dogshit (or was last time I checked?), but I'm not going to go out and buy a system for DP of all games, as much as I love it.
Yeah, sound cues are definitely important, with the earlier enemies basically announcing their attacks, and Bayonetta sometimes getting a bit small on screen, so hearing the noises of her attack really helps with timing. I actually mostly play with music off because it helps me keep track of the action better.
I definitely didn't wrap my head around how the game actually expects you to play back when I first played it on 360 - brute forced my way through it on normal up until the last chapter. I was focusing way too hard on the witch time mechanic, I thought that this was basically the main idea of the game.
Only after discovering the DMC series was that I'm slowly starting to get the hang of the timed button presses (what a great system! Each combo having a specific timing rather than complicated inputs like a classic fighting game is fantastic!) or launching enemies into the air.
I'm slowly making my way through normal, but always making a point to go back to the vestibule chapter and just memorize some new combos.
This is a game where a ton of shit is going on at all times, but it's easy to be overwhelmed and not really feel in control - like just dodging as much as possible and mashing buttons.
I'm certain that this is part of what made Dark Souls so popular - it presents you with very basic stuff from the start. It feels pretty hard right from the start as a newcomer, but it actually has a rather small pool of moves and systems.
Bayonetta goes into overdrive much quicker without a guarantee that you're actually grasping any of its mechanics. You definitely have to be willing to research the intricacies, and this is where a lot of the satisfaction lies. A bit like Monster Hunter actually, a game infamous for overwhelming newbies with boring gathering quests and slow moving weapons.
In that way, Bayonetta feels very arcade - much of its depth available right from the start, but requiring quite a lot of knowledge and training to appreciate and not just "credit feed" / spam continue throughout the whole game.
That's a great tip! I keep forgetting that I can switch difficulty on a save, and I definitely need some more halos.
Auto-Reply
Member
There are 2 lower difficulty levels than normal and I wouldn't dismiss them just because they have automatic combos. Play through the game, collect stuff return better prepared (items, weapons, health etc) and stronger to normal difficulty and beyond that. Get the air dodge technique, Bat WithinDodge ability and the Moon of Mahaa-Kalaa there (or collect enough money for them there) and then block/dodge the crap out of Gracious & Glorius and everything else. The game was very hard for me on normal the first time and it is in general for people not used to these type of games and people seem to forget that once they have some practise in the game , they call it easy, at least I think some people do that.
Edit: Also, are not afraid to create and use lollipops. Prevent certain death with some health from a green lollipop or even use yellow invincibility for very difficult situation. You'll get the hang of it eventually but there is no harm in using what the game offers you, if you want to become master level at the game there is no way around hours and hours of practise no matter how you approach the game, and getting used to enemies and having everything available at the start helps with that.