This would be a fair point IF this had been a proper fight to the death, it wasn't. We don't really know how strong 17 is just he is way stronger than he was. That in and of itself does not diminish goku and vegeta.
Dragon Ball Super |OT6| Put your back into it.
- Thread starter ArchedThunder
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Undead Fantasy
Member
They shouldn't have used Blue at all. Everything would have been fine.
Now people are going to get confused when 17 jobs against Jiren, Toppo or Hit.
1st Course
Member
I know. It just seems like for every post criticising DBS the counter is "oh you know old DB wasn't all that great too".
The whole thing is just tiresome at this point.
The whole thing is just tiresome at this point.
What ?
Gohan said his eyes were burning despite him closing them, and Krilin ringed him out within 3 seconds. How was he supposed to go super saiyan and use radar while handling the pain + getting used to being blind again, in literally 3 seconds ? He only lost because of the "ring out", not by KO.
They have learned to hide their ki very early on, what is that question ?
And yes Goku was selfish because he was seeing himself able to take on any enemy, multiples ones if he had to (he said that to them), but he realized he actually was gonna need team work. That's important because Goku is not a team player usually.
The mafuba, hypnosis, and other techniques like that don't need crazy power to be effective.
Whatever.
ArchedThunder
Banned
Gohan surpassed Goku's power from the beginning of Z as a toddler in a few months, did that diminish everything Goku did in DB?
Let's not even mention how Super Saiyan was handed out like candy after being built up for an arc.
Proportionally speaking is the gap really any bigger than the gap between Goku at the beginning of DB and the beginning of Z? 17's power in the androids arc is his base power without training, so it's not a leap to say that his gains from training would be proportional to his base strength.
So far I've liked the characters who have gotten stronger because they're characters we haven't seen for 10 years and don't know what they've been doing all this time, so they could realistically get stronger. 17 only more logical because he can't sense energy/ threats, and he doesn't give off energy, so no one knows he's been getting stronger.
The only thing that irritates me with that is Dende though.
Not to mention 2 humans were turned into androids, and suddenly surpassed a power level Gero didn't even know about. He didn't know about Namek, he didn't know about SSJ, the last he knew Goku's power to be was before training in the 100G. Yet luckily he put himself almost on par with SSJ, and made 3 androids stronger than him. How did that not take away work not only the saiyans did, but Krillin, Tien, Piccolo, and Yamcha as well. All Bulma had to do was operate on them, and Frieza's dead in seconds. Vegeta's dead in second's. If they can make androids as strong as SSJ, what was stopping them from making 18 and 17 stronger? I will always bring up that the androids have always been bullshit. People accepted the bullshit years ago, but now it's a problem?
The only thing that irritates me with that is Dende though.
Not to mention 2 humans were turned into androids, and suddenly surpassed a power level Gero didn't even know about. He didn't know about Namek, he didn't know about SSJ, the last he knew Goku's power to be was before training in the 100G. Yet luckily he put himself almost on par with SSJ, and made 3 androids stronger than him. How did that not take away work not only the saiyans did, but Krillin, Tien, Piccolo, and Yamcha as well. All Bulma had to do was operate on them, and Frieza's dead in seconds. Vegeta's dead in second's. If they can make androids as strong as SSJ, what was stopping them from making 18 and 17 stronger? I will always bring up that the androids have always been bullshit. People accepted the bullshit years ago, but now it's a problem?
Infinite Justice
Member
When you had ads like this running
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7KoxmQBTv4
The last thing i was thinking of was how these are mostly bullshit, but instead marking the fuck out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7KoxmQBTv4
The last thing i was thinking of was how these are mostly bullshit, but instead marking the fuck out.
ArchedThunder
Banned
Undead Fantasy
Member
Dende? Why?
Lamel
Banned
Fair point, which is why I ultimately don't think he isn't as strong as them. I'm just going off the way it's been portrayed so far on the show. Again, probably just to build hype but I think it can be done better.
I had no problem with new characters coming in and being portrayed as strong/the next big threat. But we basically discarded the androids in an arc and they were surpassed thoroughly by the end of the series. I only dislike that now one is being brought back and to such insane heights without much of a proper explanation imo. But we will see as time goes on.
Sure, I'm not saying that it is impossible for 17 to get much stronger. I'm saying that as of now the way it's portrayed in the show is that he is rivaling SSblue, a form taken on by the years of experience in fighting Goku/Vegeta have and then training as increased levels, the latest training with arguably the most powerful being in their universe. In terms of narrative we have seen over hundreds of episodes what it has taken to get there. 17's reach to that level is explained (so far), as training on an island; i would expect diminishing returns at that point. If they had this fight between 17/Goku with 17 giving super saiyan goku a hard time (and let's be honest, super saiyan goku at this point surpasses original 17 so immensely it's not even fair), I would have bought it much more easily.
I realize dragon ball can't be rationalized, and arguments can be made based off so many ridiculous things haha. But story telling and character building can still be done in a better way. I am going off what I've seen in the past few episodes.
Now with that being said, I gotta step away from this discussion, because I'm not 12 any more and this stuff should not be concerning me at all haha.
Seems weird that Dende knew this the whole time, yet never told anyone. Plus if 17 has been getting stronger, Dende should know that, so Dende should have been mentioning 17 for earlier fights. And in general I don't like the idea that Dende knows where 17 is when he can't sense energy.
Inconsistent Guardian scaling.
ArchedThunder
Banned
Dende said that he was listening in on Goku and the others when they came back from the exhibition, they said that they should recruit 17 out loud in episode 83, so he could have checked up on 17 for the first time in years because he heard that.
Undead Fantasy
Member
Great fight, let down a bit by Yashima's corrections, but still great.
Someone doesn't understand the no killing rule.
My bad. Time for a rewatch of my favorite arc. The inconsistent was a
terrible
ArchedThunder
Banned
Old Dragon Ball was great, despite doing funny things with power, that's the point, people shouldn't get all caught up in power levels and just enjoy the show.
Preach.
Infinite Justice
Member
Maybe it would stop if people stop pinning certain stuff on super while letting that shit slide in Z because of nostalgia goggles.
Also super need some more course correction, growing pains be damned.
What ?
Nowhere did it state Dendé knew about 17 for a long time. Hell that could be a very recent thing. Maybe even when he heard about the tournament.
Also as a god I guess he gets better abilities to track people. Maybe he can feel their soul.
It wasn't an oversight since they have Goku flat out state 17 can't be sensed.
Infinite Justice
Member
Power levels was one of the reasons i felt DBZ got popular overseas though for better or worse.
I feel it can still have a place but expecting any kind of consistency is basically a fools errand.
RocknRola
Member
Nah, DB was already pretty damn popular in Europe (or parts of Europe at least) well before DBZ happened. Not sure about NA or SA though.
Though given how hype the whole Saiyans to Frieza Arcs were, that definitely helped.
donkey show
Member
I'm not really fussed about Blue being all over the place power-scaling wise (as TFS Tien so eloquently puts it), but I wish it gave them new techniques that were only possible if you were a god or something like that. It's just another notch on the volume dial versus what it could've potentially been. Like it'd be cool for Vegeta to start throwing teleport punches or messing with elementals or something that isn't another big ass energy blast.
Romars202129
Member
As much salt as this might cause... I think they were teasing a 17 transformation at the end of that fight.
Infinite Justice
Member
My bad i should have said DBZ since i forgot they were basically treated as a separate series over here.
donkey show
Member
Super 17 to become canon. He's been slowly absorbing Hell 17 parts from Gero over the 10 years. :3
The 17 and 18 fusion we've all been waiting for. It's time.
I don't think Krillin is waiting for that.
Fulminator
Member
Ok, got around to watching the episode, it was pretty good.
The Goku 17 fight was cool, if not weirdly animated. That was tate right? I'm really curious to see the full extent of 17s power, and also gokus, bc it's really hard to tell how strong Goku actually is lol.
Also very pleased that all the people who said Uub is never coming back get to eat crow, we will definitely see him soon
The Goku 17 fight was cool, if not weirdly animated. That was tate right? I'm really curious to see the full extent of 17s power, and also gokus, bc it's really hard to tell how strong Goku actually is lol.
Also very pleased that all the people who said Uub is never coming back get to eat crow, we will definitely see him soon
TeamLeftMatch
Member
ArchedThunder
Banned
Corrections are fixes made to the artwork by either one of the animation supervisors or 2nd Key Animators.
The guy who animated the Krillin vs Goku fight is one of Super's best, but he works on a ton of episodes so he usually hands in rough artwork that has to be corrected by others. Usually he's corrected by people with great art styles, but for that fight he ended up being corrected by Yoshitaka Yashima. Yashima is a great asset to Super because he can animate an entire episode by himself in 6 weeks, episode 83 he did in 4 weeks, but that fight was done by Higashide and corrected by him. Yashima's art can come out nice some times, but usually it needs to be corrected by someone else, and he had less time on episode 83 than he usually does and still ended up correcting someone else's work.
In short, the animation is great in that Goku vs Krillin clip, the art just isn't the best due to various factors.
donkey show
Member
TeamLeftMatch
Member
Well, they didn't say fusions weren't allowed in the tourney, right?
Let's take it a step further.
Undead Fantasy
Member
Fulminator
Member
Holy shit I've been reading back a few pages
Y'all need to fucking chill with the 17 power level thing lol, if anything it means we will probably see him in a good fight and that's really what dragon Ball is all about isn't it
Plus blue is definitely getting phased out in this arc anyways
Y'all need to fucking chill with the 17 power level thing lol, if anything it means we will probably see him in a good fight and that's really what dragon Ball is all about isn't it
Plus blue is definitely getting phased out in this arc anyways
Help us, Fulmionekenobi =( .
The Last One
Member
Great fight, let down a bit by Yashima's corrections, but still great.
Was Krilin's Taiyoken even work in this fight?
I mean, it's cloudy and ranning.
No Gohan is stronger than ultimate Gohan from the Buu saga when he is in Super Saiyan.
His new ultimate form should make him even stronger, and by the law of Trunks bullshit, he should be around blue when mad.
No.
Undead Fantasy
Member
Save us Zeno Sama. Erase episode 86.
ArchedThunder
Banned
They don't actually need the sun as far as I remember.
The Last One
Member
Oh ok then, that makes more sense. I always remember the users positioning themselves in front of the sun when using, that's why I though it was an requirement.
foxuzamaki
Doesn't read OPs, especially not his own
Retroactively making goku not as shitty as toriyama wanted him haha
NeonZ
Member
Although I agree that power level escalation in DBZ was often arbitrary, it was always a big focus of the show and hyped by it though. I think people would have much less issue with these recent episodes, if the show actually acted like they were making big leaps, but it just doesn't. Rather than making it look like these character have made huge increases in their power, it just seems like the show is making it look like it's not that big of a deal.
For example, rather than showing that Kuririn was training with standard gym equipment, they should have shown him using a gravity room, or something like ki draining plants like in that filler arc. Something that made his training seem special to make up for all the time he was doing nothing.
Rather than having 17 just mention that he has been training for a while, they should have shown him in some flashback frustrated by his own weakness and attempting to surpass his limits somehow (like deep water pressure, training in magma or something else even crazier). In addition to that, they really should have mentioned on screen the argument said here in favor of his growth (Android created to surpass Saiyans).
Makes the show much more enjoyable to just ignore it to some extent because everyone will be as strong as they need to be as the plot dictates. It's only a matter of how clumsy they are about explaining it.
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