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[D4Danger]

looking at that yougov data the leave vote is almost entirely Tory now so UKIP can fuck off into obscurity.

The remain vote is split slightly in Labour's favour so it might come down to other issues where these seats are concerned.

It still looks like the Tories will absolutely destroy the centre left parties thanks to FPTP though.

 

[Acorn]

The Tories own the rhetoric in Britain. It's only till you move to a different country that you realise how entrenched the U.K. is in class identity and a language that looks up to its betters and make judgements on the disadvantaged.

Whilst this is true, Blair managed to dictate the rules of play for 10 years.

Even with all his faults, he is a million times better than a tory govt. I guess we needed 2010 & 2015 plus Corbyn's circus to remind us (me included) of that.

 

[pswii60]

The Tories own the rhetoric in Britain. It's only till you move to a different country that you realise how entrenched the U.K. is in class identity and a language that looks up to its betters and make judgements on the disadvantaged.

I spend most of my time in France these days (work) and this is really no different there, perhaps even worse in some ways. I mean, if you're fat in France then people will step over you in the street, never mind disadvantaged.

That said, extreme union culture gives the working class a lot of protection there compared to the UK, but many would agree it goes too far.

 

[Maledict]

Whilst this is true, Blair managed to dictate the rules of play for 10 years.

Even with all his faults, he is a million times better than a tory govt. I guess we needed 2010 & 2015 plus Corbyn's circus to remind us (me included) of that.

Yeah, I never realised how much I miss Blair and new labour. Looking at back at what they did, and it makes the current disaster look even worse.

One of those 'you didn't know how good you had it till you lost it moments!'

 

[Jezbollah]

Yeah, I never realised how much I miss Blair and new labour. Looking at back at what they did, and it makes the current disaster look even worse.

One of those 'you didn't know how good you had it till you lost it moments!'

If only Iraq had never happened

 

[D4Danger]

Yeah, I never realised how much I miss Blair and new labour. Looking at back at what they did, and it makes the current disaster look even worse.

One of those 'you didn't know how good you had it till you lost it moments!'

I'd rather vote Lib Dem than see that arrogant warmonger back in power.

David Miliband would probably be okay. He could just about sneak back in.

 

[Royal_Phalanx]

Back in 2010 when I was 17 I really hoped for a REAL left-wing leader to boot out the Tory-lite people in Labour. Little did I know that I would eventually see how bad and stupid that would be, and that Tory-lite is a million times better than actual Tories. Also, there should be no lock on pensions, it's obscene how unfair and expensive it all is.

 

[Moze]

The way I look at it, I vote for two things. 1) the policies and 2) the competency and ability of those in the cabinet to execute those policies. There are a lot of Labour policies I like, but I just cannot entertain the prospect of voting for Corbyn or his Shadow Cabinet.

Give me better parties, better leaders, better manifestos.. Please.

I can understand. Corbyn just comes across as far too tame and incompetent to become prime minister. And that's before we get to his party not wanting to work with him. It also doesn't help his chancellor often comes across as very unpleasant and militant.

I will vote for Corbyn because I value what he stands for. Not that my vote matters too much in my safe Tory seat.

 

[DECK'ARD]

If only Iraq had never happened

It's not Tony's fault, God wanted him to do it.

 

[Acorn]

If only Iraq had never happened

With a tory admin we would've still invaded tbf. Although I agree with the sentiment, he destroyed his own legacy.

 

[Acorn]

I'd rather vote Lib Dem than see that arrogant warmonger back in power.

David Miliband would probably be okay. He could just about sneak back in.

Still think Ed as the policy wonk and David selling it was the optimal way forward in 2010. Ed is extremely good at policy but was poor at presentation - Although post 2015 Ed has been pretty good at presentation because he isn't so nervous I guess. David's weakness was domestic policies with a strength in presentation.

They would compliment eachother well. Like a functional Blair/Brown in the early days.

 

[travisbickle]

I spend most of my time in France these days (work) and this is really no different there, perhaps even worse in some ways. I mean, if you're fat in France then people will step over you in the street, never mind disadvantaged.

That said, extreme union culture gives the working class a lot of protection there compared to the UK, but many would agree it goes too far.

They have a better union culture, and they chopped off the royals' heads (and wrote les mis). The British (media) have a fit if you don't visit the queen before a certain date.

 

[D4Danger]

Still think Ed as the policy wonk and David selling it was the optimal way forward in 2010. Ed is extremely good at policy but was poor at presentation - Although post 2015 Ed has been pretty good at presentation because he isn't so nervous I guess. David's weakness was domestic policies with a strength in presentation.

They would compliment eachother well. Like a functional Blair/Brown in the early days.

I remember at the time people said Labour had the best candidate and then voted for his brother. Which were probably still ripples from the Blair era and Iraq.

Ed had the same problem as Corbyn (well, one of them) where the Tory leader just appears more statesman like in the media. Labour definitely need to do something about that next time. Yvette Cooper ain't gonna win you any new fans.

 

[harriet the spy]

I spend most of my time in France these days (work) and this is really no different there, perhaps even worse in some ways. I mean, if you're fat in France then people will step over you in the street, never mind disadvantaged.

That said, extreme union culture gives the working class a lot of protection there compared to the UK, but many would agree it goes too far.

As a Frenchman living in the U.K. - I completely disagree. Class culture is FAR worse in the U.K.
Not that there is not any in France, or that we indeed are less tolerant of obesity.
But this probably depends on where you come from, where you went, and where you work.

 

[Acorn]

I remember at the time people said Labour had the best candidate and then voted for his brother.

Ed had the same problem as Corbyn (well, one of them) where the Tory leader just appears more statesman like in the media. Labour definitely need to do something about that next time. Yvette Cooper ain't gonna win you any new fans.

Agreed.


Ed's defeat hurt, because I believed and still believe Cameron was beatable. He is a cheap Blair cosplay. It's like Tory scientists created a robot in 2005 to copy Blair but spilt coffee on his cpu.

 

[pswii60]

As a Frenchman living in the U.K. - I completely disagree. Class culture is FAR worse in the U.K.
Not that there is not any in France, or that we indeed are less tolerant of obesity.
But this probably depends on where you come from, where you went, and where you work.

Pas de Calais region. Fair enough.

But you can say same about UK. Class culture is indeed horrendous in the South East and especially London, but rest of the UK not as much. I mean, people in the South East basically write off the North altogether.

 

[DECK'ARD]

I remember at the time people said Labour had the best candidate and then voted for his brother.

Ed had the same problem as Corbyn (well, one of them) where the Tory leader just appears more statesman like in the media.

I wasn't that much of a fan of David at the time (although Ed was a WTF moment), and after Blair not in much desire for someone as much salesman as potential leader but he really should have parachuted into the country to sort things out by now.

Help us David, you're our only hope.

 

[Acorn]

I wasn't that much of a fan of David at the time (although Ed was a WTF moment), and after Blair not in much desire for someone as much salesman as potential leader but he really should have parachuted into the country to sort things out by now.

Help us David, you're our only hope.

David was always more interested in foreign policy than domestic. Hence partly his current role and still partly explains his reticience to jump back in.

He isn't really our only hope anyway, Starmer can hopefully fill that role. Hopefully with Ed involved in frontline politics again and actively contributing to Labours policy platform.

 

[DECK'ARD]

David was always more interested in foreign policy than domestic. Hence partly his current role and still partly explains his reticience to jump back in.

He isn't really our only hope anyway, Starmer can hopefully fill that role. Hopefully with Ed involved in frontline politics again and actively contributing to Labours policy platform.

Yeah I was exaggerating, but desperately need someone like that and the party is just going to be obliterated before it can happen.

Corbyn is a roadblock to common-sense.

 

[Acorn]

Yeah I was exaggerating, but desperately need someone like that and the party is just going to be obliterated before it can happen.

Corbyn is a roadblock to common-sense.

Ah okay agreed on both counts.

If Corbyn doesn't resign after he loses I'll go fucking nuts. It would further convince me that he is determined to destroy the labour party as a possible party of govt, instead making them a useless protest party like the Scottish Socialist Party and other assorted forever no hopers. Obsessed with purity tests instead of governing.

 

[Huw_Dawson]

Frankly the future of the Labour Party is almost certainly Chukka Umunna (I have probably butchered his name), as he is the only Labour person I have seen who I've pointed at and gone 'yup, that's a leader right there'.

But he's not *that* amazing, and he is a social democrat Blairite, not a socialist.

Labour's massive issue is lack of talent.

 

[Abelard]

Whilst this is true, Blair managed to dictate the rules of play for 10 years.

Even with all his faults, he is a million times better than a tory govt. I guess we needed 2010 & 2015 plus Corbyn's circus to remind us (me included) of that.

I don't know how anyone can subscribe to this logic. What Tony and his government did was objectively evil, he belongs in a jail cell with his buddy George Bush. Its the same thing that's happening with Trump and how we are now romanticizing republicans of yore because Trump is so bad.

 

[Pixieking]

I don't know how anyone can subscribe to this logic. What Tony and his government did was objectively evil, he belongs in a jail cell with his buddy George Bush. Its the same thing that's happening with Trump and how we are now romanticizing republicans of yore because Trump is so bad.

Tarring everything that Blair and his Labour governments did with the brush of Iraq War is politically naive. The repeal of Section 28 alone should count for something.

 

[Moze]

Tarring everything that Blair and his Labour governments did with the brush of Iraq War is politically naive. The repeal of Section 28 alone should count for something.

I guess New Labour were very important in bringing social change around and moving the Tories to the centre regarding social issues.

New Labour wasn't all that different from Cameron in alot of ways, though. They were authoritarian, had awful housing policy and pretty much just gave up on social housing, and created many of the policies on welfare that the Tories would keep and expand on. There are many similarities between current Tory and New Labour.

But would I rather gave a New Labour government than the current Tory government? Yes. Still, not by a whole lot.

 

[Pixieking]

I guess New Labour were very important in bringing social change around and moving the Tories to the centre regarding social issues.

New Labour wasn't all that different from Cameron in alot of ways, though. They were authoritarian, had awful housing policy and pretty much just gave up on social housing, and created many of the policies on welfare that the Tories would keep and expand on. There are many similarities between current Tory and New Labour.

But would I rather gave a New Labour government than the current Tory government? Yes. Still, not by a whole lot.

Oh, indeed, I'm not a big fan of New Labour myself, I'm just trying to temper the talk a little, away from the polarised extreme of "This was all bad".

 

[DECK'ARD]

Speaking of Tony Blair, guess who's more popular?

And this:

Full results

Corbyn romped in with 23%

It's going to be a bloodbath.

 

[Roberto Larcos]

I don't know how anyone can subscribe to this logic. What Tony and his government did was objectively evil, he belongs in a jail cell with his buddy George Bush. Its the same thing that's happening with Trump and how we are now romanticizing republicans of yore because Trump is so bad.

Domestically, Blair's Labour was very good. Foreign policy 2nd-term onwards, awful - and I don't think anyone really disputes that - but always solid domestically.

I guess New Labour were very important in bringing social change around and moving the Tories to the centre regarding social issues.

New Labour wasn't all that different from Cameron in alot of ways, though. They were authoritarian, had awful housing policy and pretty much just gave up on social housing, and created many of the policies on welfare that the Tories would keep and expand on. There are many similarities between current Tory and New Labour.

But would I rather gave a New Labour government than the current Tory government? Yes. Still, not by a whole lot.

I think this is pretty unfair. By saying he had policies that the Tories expanded on, you make it sound like one is a natural consequence. It isn't. The welfare policies, as implemented, were far fairer than they are today. It was a choice to make them less fair, but not Blair's choice. Also, the NHS. From a similar situation to today, to the best health it was perhaps ever in - Blair's government transformed the NHS for the better. Education too, Sure Start helped those that needed help, class sizes were down - uni fees were introduced, but 1/3 of what they are today. Real wages were higher, we took a leading role in the EU, the minimum wage was introduced, peace in Northern Ireland.

The government​ did a huge amount of good. Leagues better one than what we have now.

Also, why are so many of you guys awake at this ungodly hour?

 

[DECK'ARD]

Alarmingly for Lib Dem leader Tim Farron, 60 per cent of his supporters say they may in the end back a different party.

Well that's going swimmingly.

 

[Roberto Larcos]

Well that's going swimmingly.

I don't think it's for the same reason that Labour are struggling, though.

It'll be an issue of "should I really vote Lib Dem considering I'm in a red or blue seat, and I really want to keep the red or blue candidate out?".

Divisive leaders aren't good for smaller parties under FPTP. I expect the vote will increase in areas where the Lib Dems are seen as the second party and thus viable, but they'll fall even further down the order in red / blue marginals (of which there are more than ever based on national opinion polling), with voters fighting to keep Corbyn or May out.

 

[Pixieking]

The government​ did a huge amount of good. Leagues better one than what we have now.

Also, why are so many of you guys awake at this ungodly hour?

I totally forgot about Sure Start... I worked admin at a couple of them.

And I'm awake because it's just gone 9am here (in Jordan). Been up since 6am local time.

I don't think it's for the same reason that Labour are struggling, though.

It'll be an issue of "should I really vote Lib Dem considering I'm in a red or blue seat, and I really want to keep the red or blue candidate out?".

Divisive leaders aren't good for smaller parties under FPTP. I expect the vote will increase in areas where the Lib Dems are seen as the second party and thus viable, but they'll fall even further down the order in red / blue marginals (of which there are more than ever based on national opinion polling), with voters fighting to keep Corbyn or May out.

This is the sole reason I dithered about voting Lib Dem, but I can't vote for Labour - they're useless as Opposition, and I have no doubt they'd be useless if they happened to win. So, regardless of whether it's tactically the best, I'm going for Lib Dems, and hoping others do the same.

 

[boxoctosis]

Back in 2010 when I was 17 I really hoped for a REAL left-wing leader to boot out the Tory-lite people in Labour. Little did I know that I would eventually see how bad and stupid that would be, and that Tory-lite is a million times better than actual Tories. Also, there should be no lock on pensions, it's obscene how unfair and expensive it all is.

Yeah the triple lock is pretty poor given the cuts absolutely everywhere else. Yet another unfunded and unsustainable pension liability. The inability of any government to grasp the nettle on pensions is appalling IMO.

Although given everyone seems to grow more conservative as they age, unsurprising the tories prioritise the grey vote.

 

[31GhostsIV]

Speaking of Tony Blair, guess who's more popular?

And this:

Full results

Corbyn romped in with 23%

It's going to be a bloodbath.

Remind me... who's recently taken a job as editor of the Evening Standard? 🤔

 

[DECK'ARD]

I don't think it's for the same reason that Labour are struggling, though.

It'll be an issue of "should I really vote Lib Dem considering I'm in a red or blue seat, and I really want to keep the red or blue candidate out?".

Divisive leaders aren't good for smaller parties under FPTP. I expect the vote will increase in areas where the Lib Dems are seen as the second party and thus viable, but they'll fall even further down the order in red / blue marginals (of which there are more than ever based on national opinion polling), with voters fighting to keep Corbyn or May out.

I expected them to get sort of an automatic bounce from Brexit in this, that this was really important and the Lib Dems were the only clear choice. Instead they've flatlined and if even their supporters can't get behind them then I don't see them drawing in many others.

Obviously the campaign is to come, but this early you'd expect people to be more idealistic rather than when reality sets in at the ballot box.

Remind me... who's recently taken a job as editor of the Evening Standard? 🤔

Not aware of any problems with Ipsos Mori, or I wouldn't have posted it. Had to go to the Daily Mail for the pics, so consider my sacrifice while I go for a chemical shower.

 

[Uzzy]

I think BoJo was feeling left out.

Boris Johnson has made his first intervention in the election campaign to accuse Jeremy Corbyn of being a security threat and not just a “mutton-headed old mugwump”.

After speculation that the Conservative party was hiding the foreign secretary away during the campaign, Johnson used an article in Sun to claim that the Labour leader had “no grasp of the need for this country to be strong in the world”.

He claimed the electorate should not be fooled by Corbyn’s “meandering and nonsensical questions”. He added: “They say to themselves: he may be a mutton-headed old mugwump, but he is probably harmless.

“It is absolutely vital for Britain’s security that we have the strong, stable and decisive leadership of Theresa May.”

Johnson questioned how Corbyn would respond to the “semi-deranged” regime in North Korea. And he warned that the UK would be “totally stiffed” in Brexit negotiations if Corbyn were dealing with Brussels.

 

[King_Moc]

Boris Johnson describing someone else as 'meandering and nonsensical'. Does he have any self awareness?

 

[DECK'ARD]

mugwump. [muhg-wuhmp] a Republican who refused to support the party nominee, James G. Blaine, in the presidential campaign of 1884. a person who is unable to make up his or her mind on an issue, especially in politics; a person who is neutral on a controversial issue.

The more you know.

 

[Huw_Dawson]

Latest Yougov poll on the topic has 45% of people reporting that leaving the EU was the wrong decision - a majority of those asked.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

How much longer does everyone think they can push the 'security' narrative before voters get tired of hearing it?

Not just for this election, but going forward. They've been fucking that chicken for a decade and a change now...

 

[StayDead]

Latest Yougov poll on the topic has 45% of people reporting that leaving the EU was the wrong decision - a majority of those asked.

yay!

 

[Deleted member 231381]

How much longer does everyone think they can push the 'security' narrative before voters get tired of hearing it?

Not just for this election, but going forward. They've been fucking that chicken for a decade and a change now...

I mean, security is pretty much always an issue, though. Nobody ever said "I don't want some of that security this year." It's Labour's responsibility to be as credible as the Conservatives on that front, rather than wait for the Conservatives to stop doing anything about it, which will happen on the 12th of Never.

I mean, Corbyn could have argued for an increase in military spending by focusing on reskilling soldiers after they leave active service, something which is woefully underfunded, and could be a bridge issue between the working classes and the metropolitan elites - patriotism on the one hand, liberal nicety on the other. Pretty much everyone in this thread would back that, right - who doesn't want less former servicemen on the streets? But instead, he just ignores the topic, and rightly gets painted as weak.

 

[TimmmV]

As a Frenchman living in the U.K. - I completely disagree. Class culture is FAR worse in the U.K.
Not that there is not any in France, or that we indeed are less tolerant of obesity.
But this probably depends on where you come from, where you went, and where you work.

My German mother and Spanish gf (although to a lesser extent with her) have both independently said things similar to this too

But you can say same about UK. Class culture is indeed horrendous in the South East and especially London, but rest of the UK not as much. I mean, people in the South East basically write off the North altogether.

Well, yeah it might not be as extreme, but it's still there. You could see extremely stark differences in class just by driving from North Cheshire to central bits of Manchester for instance, ant thats only around 10-15 miles distance

Whilst this is true, Blair managed to dictate the rules of play for 10 years.

Even with all his faults, he is a million times better than a tory govt. I guess we needed 2010 & 2015 plus Corbyn's circus to remind us (me included) of that.

You'd hope that after 12-15ish years of Tory rule, another Blair will come along and make the Left electable again

 

[Huw_Dawson]

yay!

Just one poll.

If we got that result consistently for the next few weeks though...

 

[ittoryu]

I won't be able to vote as I am a dirty immigrant, but I still don't understand how can Corbyn be so bad in everything he does. Every chance he has ever got, he was unable to actually do anything.
Brexit? Didn't even move a finger.
PMQs? Nill.
TV Debate? Nada.

How is he planning to even get as many seats as they have now?
Don't get me wrong, I'd never ever vote Tory (if I was allowed to), I'd prefer to jump off a cliff than seeing that smug smile of May again, but how can Labour even think someone will see Corbyn as suitable to be a PM?
Blair has fucked up horribly and all, but he was on a different level...

 

[PJV3]

This is the sole reason I dithered about voting Lib Dem, but I can't vote for Labour - they're useless as Opposition, and I have no doubt they'd be useless if they happened to win. So, regardless of whether it's tactically the best, I'm going for Lib Dems, and hoping others do the same.

This might not apply to your situation but I'm hoping they are also considering Labour post Corbyn, if you have a Labour MP are they any good for creating a better opposition in the future.

 

[hodgy100]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1l1XGiXgo0

My Dad loves Spitting image.

He votes Tory every time

I won't be able to vote as I am a dirty immigrant, but I still don't understand how can Corbyn be so bad in everything he does. Every chance he has ever got, he was unable to actually do anything.
Brexit? Didn't even move a finger.
PMQs? Nill.
TV Debate? Nada.

How is he planning to even get as many seats as they have now?
Don't get me wrong, I'd never ever vote Tory (if I was allowed to), I'd prefer to jump off a cliff than seeing that smug smile of May again, but how can Labour even think someone will see Corbyn as suitable to be a PM?
Blair has fucked up horribly and all, but he was on a different level...

I highly suspect hes going for accelerationism. in that hes trying to let the tories have their way with the country only to go "see i told you now all vote for me to save you all"

its exactly the kind of privileged lefty we dont need.

 

[Fernando Fernandez]

As sad as it makes me to type this, the next Labour leader has to get in bed with The Sun. If not, like Ed, Brown and Corbyn they will do their best to dismantle them to their readers.

 

[Ghost]

Green party in Brighton Kemptown (Not Caroline Lucas' constituency, the one next to it) have voted to not stand a candidate against Simon Kirby (Tory).

In 2015 Kirby won his seat with a majority of 600 over Labour's Nancy Platts and 3,000 people voted Green.

 

[PJV3]

As sad as it makes me to type this, the next Labour leader has to get in bed with The Sun. If not, like Ed, Brown and Corbyn they will do their best to dismantle them to their readers.

I'm not 100% about that, if public opinion swings strongly against the Tories it is likely Murdoch will have the sun follow it.

It obviously helps to have his papers on side not turning you into a joke, so I agree with you in the build up to getting them out.

 

[Mr. Sam]

Latest Yougov poll on the topic has 45% of people reporting that leaving the EU was the wrong decision - a majority of those asked.

yay!

The margin for error on the poll is plus or minus three and, considering the "regretters" have a majority of three, well...

Edit: Public expectations for Brexit are still, on the whole, sky high, and likely won't come down for years - i.e. after the obliteration of the opposition. They will, inevitably, come crashing down - as they're higher than even the most optimistic Brexiteers could accomodate - but then the alternative to the Tories who sold them false promises will be... the wounded, thrashing, divided opposition.

I highly suspect hes going for accelerationism. in that hes trying to let the tories have their way with the country only to go "see i told you now all vote for me to save you all"

I think you're giving Corbyn altogether too much credit.

 

[Jezbollah]

Green party in Brighton Kemptown (Not Caroline Lucas' constituency, the one next to it) have voted to not stand a candidate against Simon Kirby (Tory).

In 2015 Kirby won his seat with a majority of 600 over Labour's Nancy Platts and 3,000 people voted Green.

Some real tactical candidacy shit going down here.