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[QuicheFontaine]

The next big Lib Dem Scandal: Farron says "smell my spaniel" to a voter.

May and Corbyn line up to denounce his clear insanity.

Alan was "clinically fed up" for a while...

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

I think the attempts at reforming the welfare system have also struck a chord with your average working / middle class voters.
Anecdotal but, recently while having a drink the conversation turned to welfare benefit abuses and how taxpayers hate to see money going to those who don't deserve it .
They see John Smith who gets out of his bed at about 11am, heads to the shop for his cigarettes on his way to the pub for afternoon drinks and wonder how it works out for him while they spend the days working a job they hate for a life barely better than his.
A friend of mine even suggested going as far as making benefit payments in non transferable voucher form.
Watching Benefits Britain and Benefits St just serves to reinforce this and unfortunately the deserving get tarred with the same brush.
When they hear Corbyn chunnering on about food banks and welfare claimants living in poverty they don't see the genuinely needy they see John Smith.
I think that's why May's just about managings resonates so well .

There was a program recently on how the benefits cap affected the end users and oh boy it did not paint a good picture of the people who received it: ungrateful, relatively lazy and unable to make sacrifices. I could definitely see it adverse reactions from the working class.

The Tories are the party of economics? How did austerity work out again? What happened to the national debt since the Tories have been in power?

To me, the Tories are synonymous with abuse of the poor, a ruinous Brexit referendum and draconian surveillance laws while only the very wealthy benefit. A vote for them means you think these things are ok.

Firing singular statistics is useless in conveying economic competency and can easily be used to paint a different picture:

The reality is economics is a complex system and such the biggest understanding the public have is simply a perception of whats happening. I would say the perception has been positive ever since Cameron's first term.

 

[travisbickle]

The benefits system in the UK does definitely need massive reform. I work in social housing and encounter entire families that are lifelong benefit abusers. Families where the grandparents don't work, the parents have never worked and now the children don't work. Often they live in homes that I, on a respectable combined income of over 75k would never be able to afford.

Are they in privately-owned accommodation that the council are renting?

Maybe if you and your partner resign from your jobs, get your parents to quit to, and then join with your grandparents to get a council-paid house to live in, with your connections it should be easy.

 

[31GhostsIV]

There was a program recently on how the benefits cap affected the end users and oh boy it did not paint a good picture of the people who received it: ungrateful, relatively lazy and unable to make sacrifices. I could definitely see it adverse reactions from the working class.



Firing singular statistics is useless in conveying economic competency and can easily be used to paint a different picture:

The reality is economics is a complex system and such the biggest understanding the public have is simply a perception of whats happening. I would say the perception has been positive ever since Cameron's first term.

The national debt has increased very significantly under Tory rule, one that brought with it cuts and austerity that were allegedly necessary to get the nation's finances under control. That didn't happen though, did it?

Perception appears to be positive because of the right wing bias of the majority of our media.

 

[JimiNutz]

Pulling the rug underneath them isn't going to make things better.

It's all about education. That's the only way to break this generational cycle.
We have to, to a certain degree, "write off" the current generation and concentrate on the kids.
But that's not going to work if the kids have parents who can't afford to live somewhere half decent, not having to be moved around every 6 months and can't afford to feed them etc etc.

Generational benefits "lifestyle" is a problem, no doubt, a problem that Labour never really managed to do anything about.
But it's a problem for the people caught up in it, more than anything else. It's a "wasted" lifetime that should be filled with opportunities.
But it's hardly a problem for the UK debt.... it's fucking peanuts at the end of the day.

I agree that we can't just pull the rug out from underneath them and that will cause a lot more issues anyway.

There does need to be some kind of long term system of reform though because it cant continue as it is.

Every year I am sent a breakdown of where my tax money went... I contributed nearly £10k last year in taxes and deductions and according to the pie chart that I was sent a large amount (over 40% if I remember correctly) of that tax money was used to pay for our benefits system - money that could, and should, be used on education, healthcare, policing etc instead.

 

[DECK'ARD]

A man has been arrested after an incident in Whitehall, near Parliament, police have said.

A witness described seeing two knives on the ground, one of which he described as a large bread knife.

A Metropolitan Police statement said there were no injuries.

Glad no one was hurt. This shit's never going to end.

 

[PJV3]

I agree that we can't just pull the rug out from underneath them and that will cause a lot more issues anyway.

There does need to be some kind of long term system of reform though because it cant continue as it is.

Every year I am sent a breakdown of where my tax money went... I contributed nearly £10k last year in taxes and deductions and according to the pie chart that I was sent a large amount (over 40% if I remember correctly) of that tax money was used to pay for our benefits system - money that could, and should, be used on education, healthcare, policing etc instead.

I think welfare is at about 15%.

 

[empyrean]

The media and tories have us regular people fighting the wrong fights.

This idea that lazy benefit claimants are the problem is a falsehood. They amount to such a tiny proportion (financially) that they aren't significant. Vastly more money is given away to rich multinational corporations and top earners in tax breaks and uncollected taxes.

THey are playing the people off against each other whilst they cream off the profits.

 

[anonymous_abc]

The media and tories have us regular people fighting the wrong fights.

This idea that lazy benefit claimants are the problem is a falsehood. They amount to such a tiny proportion (financially) that they aren't significant. Vastly more money is given away to rich multinational corporations and top earners in tax breaks and uncollected taxes.

THey are playing the people off against each other whilst they cream off the profits.

 

[TimmmV]

Yes, I heard recently from someone who is voting Tory that they just can't stand "benefits scroungers". It's fair enough, but when you look at the actual cost of benefit fraud it's something like £1B compared to £30B in company tax evasion. And then you have the tories planning to cut another £64B from corporation tax over the next 5 years, which makes that £1B benefit fraud almost completely insignificant.

Yep, which is the best demonstration that the whole "scrounger" thing is basically just right wing propaganda. Take too much from the system and you're a "scrounger", but denying funding to the system through tax avoidance is just "good business sense". If they actually cared about people screwing the system, then focus would be on that instead

The benefits system in the UK does definitely need massive reform. I work in social housing and encounter entire families that are lifelong benefit abusers. Families where the grandparents don't work, the parents have never worked and now the children don't work. Often they live in homes that I, on a respectable combined income of over 75k would never be able to afford.

The bottom line is that the system isn't working when you have entire families living relatively comfortable lives without having to work. The current benefits system simply cannot maintain itself when you have people taking, taking, taking without paying anything in themselves. I know that there are many people that don't abuse the system but people shouldn't have the ability to abuse it in the first place. Its created an entire section of society that feel entitled to free benefits and who can blame them when they've been able to do it for so long.

Any welfare system will always have some element of waste in it, whether that's a family getting a big house, or their staff goofing off on the internet in working hours. The only way to absolutely eliminate abuse is to totally scrap the entire system. Additionally, often the costs of even trying to prevent the "ability to abuse it in the first place" outweigh any possible savings you'd make anyway.

With regard to the bolded, that doesn't therefore you need to demonise applicants in the way that Beefy and StayDead have just described. The bottom line is that the welfare system isn't working when you aren't getting help to people that need it (not to mention treating all applicants like shit too)

To be perfectly honest, it's worrying that someone senior (presumably, given your stated salary) who works in social housing would have an opinion like that.

 

[PJV3]

The media and tories have us regular people fighting the wrong fights.

This idea that lazy benefit claimants are the problem is a falsehood. They amount to such a tiny proportion (financially) that they aren't significant. Vastly more money is given away to rich multinational corporations and top earners in tax breaks and uncollected taxes.

THey are playing the people off against each other whilst they cream off the profits.

I get more annoyed at the idea that the benefits system created problem families, it's one of the reasons the system came in to being. People living like animals in slums, crime and disease etc, it's not a recent invention.

 

[JimiNutz]

I think welfare is at about 15%.

When I was sent my pie chart showing the breakdown, benefits was the largest slice of the pie.


I'm sure it was over 15% but don't have it to hand to double check. Regardless of the exact percentage figure it was significantly larger than all other areas including education and healthcare.

 

[31GhostsIV]

I agree that we can't just pull the rug out from underneath them and that will cause a lot more issues anyway.

There does need to be some kind of long term system of reform though because it cant continue as it is.

Every year I am sent a breakdown of where my tax money went... I contributed nearly £10k last year in taxes and deductions and according to the pie chart that I was sent a large amount (over 40% if I remember correctly) of that tax money was used to pay for our benefits system - money that could, and should, be used on education, healthcare, policing etc instead.

Like the unpaid taxes of major corporations.

I'm more bothered by the percentage of my income tax etc taking around 25% of my income each month, but the very wealthy pay a lower percentage. That bothers me more than someone living in a rundown house and buying bottles of cider paid for by 'my' taxes.

 

[empyrean]

When I was sent my pie chart showing the breakdown, benefits was the largest slice of the pie.


I'm sure it was over 15% but don't have it to hand to double check. Regardless of the exact percentage figure it was significantly larger than all other areas including education and healthcare.

The number one cost in the welfare budget? Pensions.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

I think the attempts at reforming the welfare system have also struck a chord with your average working / middle class voters.
Anecdotal but, recently while having a drink the conversation turned to welfare benefit abuses and how taxpayers hate to see money going to those who don't deserve it .
They see John Smith who gets out of his bed at about 11am, heads to the shop for his cigarettes on his way to the pub for afternoon drinks and wonder how it works out for him while they spend the days working a job they hate for a life barely better than his.
A friend of mine even suggested going as far as making benefit payments in non transferable voucher form.
Watching Benefits Britain and Benefits St just serves to reinforce this and unfortunately the deserving get tarred with the same brush.
When they hear Corbyn chunnering on about food banks and welfare claimants living in poverty they don't see the genuinely needy they see John Smith.
I think that's why May's just about managings resonates so well .

What are their thoughts on corporate welfare?

 

[Mr. Sam]

Those arguing the merits of austerity might be interested in Stephen Bush's recent article (I'm not at all affiliated with Bush or The New Statesman beyond being a subscriber, I promise):

Remember austerity?

I’m not talking about the cuts to public services, which are very much still ongoing. I’m talking about the economic argument advanced by the Conservatives from the financial crisis in 2007-8 up until the European referendum: that unlesss the British government got hold of its public finances and paid down its debt, the United Kingdom would be thrown into crisis as its creditors would get nervous.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politic...ry-wheres-philip-hammonds-deficit-target-gone

 

[PJV3]

When I was sent my pie chart showing the breakdown, benefits was the largest slice of the pie.


I'm sure it was over 15% but don't have it to hand to double check. Regardless of the exact percentage figure it was significantly larger than all other areas including education and healthcare.

It depends if they lump the old in there, I might be wrong though. I thought pensions and health were the bigger spending areas.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

When I was sent my pie chart showing the breakdown, benefits was the largest slice of the pie.


I'm sure it was over 15% but don't have it to hand to double check. Regardless of the exact percentage figure it was significantly larger than all other areas including education and healthcare.

Did you see the pension slice?

 

[QuicheFontaine]

The national debt has increased very significantly under Tory rule, one that brought with it cuts and austerity that were allegedly necessary to get the nation's finances under control. That didn't happen though, did it?

Perception appears to be positive because of the right wing bias of the majority of our media.

Well, if you're going down the route of the national debt being a concern then Labour are even worse on that - they're planning to borrow £500bn.

 

[empyrean]

Well, if you're going down the route of the national debt being a concern then Labour are even worse on that - they're planning to borrow £500bn.

That's not true either.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...-to-make-britain-more-socialist-a7337651.html

 

[Bony Manifesto]

When I was sent my pie chart showing the breakdown, benefits was the largest slice of the pie.


I'm sure it was over 15% but don't have it to hand to double check. Regardless of the exact percentage figure it was significantly larger than all other areas including education and healthcare.

They were being a bit disingenuous with their pie chart plotting.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-29898083

It's (probably, if you accept the IFS's tweaks) 6% for benefits that go to the unemployed and low-paid.

 

[*Splinter]

Every year I am sent a breakdown of where my tax money went... I contributed nearly £10k last year in taxes and deductions and according to the pie chart that I was sent a large amount (over 40% if I remember correctly) of that tax money was used to pay for our benefits system - money that could, and should, be used on education, healthcare, policing etc instead.

And how much of that slice (whether it's 40% or 15%) is due to benefit fraud?

Well, if you're going down the route of the national debt being a concern then Labour are even worse on that - they're planning to borrow £500bn.

Come off it Quiche even I know this is misleading.

IIRC only ~half of it was to be burrowed and it was spread over 10 years.

 

[RedSparrows]

Ah, the pie chart. I remember when that was released.

This is the one, right? (for c.45k p/a earnings)

Welfare can be broken down a fair bit further:

https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/7424

 

[travisbickle]

When I was sent my pie chart showing the breakdown, benefits was the largest slice of the pie.


I'm sure it was over 15% but don't have it to hand to double check. Regardless of the exact percentage figure it was significantly larger than all other areas including education and healthcare.

Those pie charts are fudged to make people like you grind your teeth.

Looking at the posted article, appears to be fudged by Philip Hammond no less.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

That's not true either.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...-to-make-britain-more-socialist-a7337651.html

Sorry, I'll be sure to say "borrow / print" in future

Come off it Quiche even I know this is misleading.

IIRC only ~half of it was to be burrowed and it was spread over 10 years.

I guess we'll see the details when the manifestos are published. I'm betting the £500bn figure will make an appearance though.

 

[PJV3]

They were being a bit disingenuous with their pie chart plotting.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-29898083

It's (probably, if you accept the IFS's tweaks) 6% for benefits that go to the unemployed and low-paid.

They actually tried to include public sector pensions in the figure?

Un-fucking believable, I must have missed that coming out.

 

[31GhostsIV]

Well, if you're going down the route of the national debt being a concern then Labour are even worse on that - they're planning to borrow £500bn.

I was actually pointing out that the Tories are considered to be economic wizards for no legitimate reason.

And I won't be voting Labour, they've never been able to get even a sniff of the seat in my constituency, even in the prime Blair years.

 

[RulkezX]

I agree that we can't just pull the rug out from underneath them and that will cause a lot more issues anyway.

There does need to be some kind of long term system of reform though because it cant continue as it is.

Every year I am sent a breakdown of where my tax money went... I contributed nearly £10k last year in taxes and deductions and according to the pie chart that I was sent a large amount (over 40% if I remember correctly) of that tax money was used to pay for our benefits system - money that could, and should, be used on education, healthcare, policing etc instead.

They conveniently hide the old age pension under"welfare" because it has the desired effect on people like yourself.

Old age pension makes up the vast majority off the welfare bill.

 

[Linkstrikesback]

They actually tried to include public sector pensions in the figure?

Un-fucking believable, I must have missed that coming out.

Of course they do.

Can't get the public backing austerity measures just by telling them the truth, after all.

 

[TimmmV]

They actually tried to include public sector pensions in the figure?

Un-fucking believable, I must have missed that coming out.

And separated out State Pensions to make it seem like pensions aren't included too.

I also get infuriated at the anger people had towards that tiny sliver going towards the EU as well

Sorry, I'll be sure to say "borrow / print" in future

And? That would be increasing the national debt to fund investment projects (which if done correctly will be a long term economic benefit to the country, especially with historically low interest rates). The Tories managed to increase it while cutting everything

 

[Mr. Sam]

Lib Dems shouldn't count on Remain votes - the data looks bleak

https://www.theguardian.com/science...n-votes-the-data-looks-bleak?CMP=share_btn_tw

It would appear that silver lining around the cloud was actually not the sun at all but the fiery fucking apocalypse.

 

[haxamin]

Its okay everyone. We've got the wonderful Bernie-Bros helping out..

 

[PJV3]

Of course they do.

Can't get the public backing austerity measures just by telling them the truth, after all.

I've heard of including the regular state pension, but NHS or fire service type ones is taking the piss.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

And? That would be increasing the national debt to fund investment projects (which if done correctly will be a long term economic benefit to the country, especially with historically low interest rates). The Tories managed to increase it while cutting everything

The point is that the national debt is either a concern or it isn't. It's kinda strange to see the Tories getting bashed on the national debt when left wingers are usually happy to run it up (see Carwyn Jones: "There's never been a better time to borrow" on Sunday Politics).

 

[Huw_Dawson]

It would appear that silver lining around the cloud was actually not the sun at all but the fiery fucking apocalypse.

The logic is that there is an effective swing away from the Lib Dems because of the Tory surge.

Up and down the country we've seen stonking great results in local council elections, which we expect to see repeated in the May local and mayoral elections.

Universal swing will be a poor judge of how well the Lib Dems actually do in contests where they are in first place, or seen as the clear second place candidate.

In addition, it's still a long time to election day.

We'll be fine.

 

[RedSparrows]

And separated out State Pensions to make it seem like pensions aren't included too.

I also get infuriated at the anger people had towards that tiny sliver going towards the EU as well

Those pie-charts were sent out in 2014. They clearly stated the EU contribution was, with leeway for some fudging, small relative to the whole public budget.

£350,000,000 a week though, that's big. Real big.

Expecting people to remember, or even pay attention, is too much. Democracy is a funny thing.

 

[anonymous_abc]

Ah, the pie chart. I remember when that was released.

This is the one, right? (for c.45k p/a earnings)

Welfare can be broken down a fair bit further:

https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/7424

At least the UK is not getting rid of that huge slice of EU budget contributions. That alone will pay for... erm...

 

[pswii60]

If Corbyn really cared about getting the Tories out of power, he would have stood aside last year and let a new leader take over. But he didn't, because it's all about him, not us.

Ah, the pie chart. I remember when that was released.

This is the one, right? (for c.45k p/a earnings)

Welfare can be broken down a fair bit further:

https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/7424

Fuck me that's a lot of national debt interest. Thanks Labour/Gordon.

 

[31GhostsIV]

If Corbyn really cared about getting the Tories out of power, he would have stood aside last year and let a new leader take over. But he didn't, because it's all about him, not us.


Fuck me that's a lot of national debt interest. Thanks Labour/Gordon.

But we had seven years of austerity to fix this, remember?

 

[Royal_Phalanx]

Are people now starting to regret their vote?

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...-now-voters-say-leaving-eu-is-wrong-sdjj30kh7

 

[TimmmV]

The point is that the national debt is either a concern or it isn't. It's kinda strange to see the Tories getting bashed on the national debt when left wingers are usually happy to run it up (see Carwyn Jones: "There's never been a better time to borrow" on Sunday Politics).

No sorry, its not that simple.

Running up the national debt while borrowing for investment spending and running up the national debt while cutting investment spending are totally different things in the long run.

Those pie-charts were sent out in 2014. They clearly stated the EU contribution was, with leeway for some fudging, small relative to the whole public budget.

£350,000,000 a week though, that's big. Real big.

Expecting people to remember, or even pay attention, is too much. Democracy is a funny thing.

If only remain had put the pie chart on the side of a bus too

Fuck me that's a lot of national debt interest. Thanks Labour/Gordon.

Not necessarily, it would depend on what those loans paid for - and whether the growth they create is enough to pay for the original loan in the first place.

Looking at interest spending just as a number on a pie chart isn't very fair really

 

[Uzzy]

The point is that the national debt is either a concern or it isn't. It's kinda strange to see the Tories getting bashed on the national debt when left wingers are usually happy to run it up (see Carwyn Jones: "There's never been a better time to borrow" on Sunday Politics).

If it is a concern, then the Tories have failed miserably at resolving it. If it isn't, then the Tories have cut a whole mass of public services for little reason.

 

[Jezbollah]

Are people now starting to regret their vote?

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...-now-voters-say-leaving-eu-is-wrong-sdjj30kh7

I think a lot were already doing that the day after the referendum.

People just don't comprehend the power of the vote...

 

[Mr. Sam]

Are people now starting to regret their vote?

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...-now-voters-say-leaving-eu-is-wrong-sdjj30kh7

No. Much ado about nothing.

 

[PJV3]

Are people now starting to regret their vote?

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...-now-voters-say-leaving-eu-is-wrong-sdjj30kh7

I think more will be very soon with May in charge. She sat around for a year doing almost bugger all, starts the article 50 process and then calls an election after a chat with hubby.

 

[Huw_Dawson]

I mean, if the polls consistently show that more people are regretting their vote now, and the Tories/Labour don't shift to a less hardline attitude, it will be really good late on in the campaign for the Lib Dems.

 

[Atrophis]

The point is that the national debt is either a concern or it isn't. It's kinda strange to see the Tories getting bashed on the national debt when left wingers are usually happy to run it up (see Carwyn Jones: "There's never been a better time to borrow" on Sunday Politics).

It's not at all strange. It's attacking the Tories using their own criteria of what good fiscal policy looks like to show them up for the useless hypocrites they are.

It's like attacking them on immigration. I don't see immigration as a problem but the Tories do and they have totally failed to cut immigration to the 10000's as promised. Their supporters only seem to care if immigration happens under a Labour government though. Funny that.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

It's not at all strange. It's attacking the Tories using their own criteria of what good fiscal policy looks like to show them up for useless hypocrite they are.

It's like attacking them on immigration. I don't see immigration as a problem but the Tories do and they have totally failed to cut immigration to the 10000's as promised. Their supporters only seem to care if immigration happens under a Labour government though. Funny that.

It is! Maybe that's a good way to explain what I mean.

So yes, the Tories have failed in their target to reduce immigration to the tens of thousands (a lolsworthy target while we were still in the EU imo). That's true. But if you like immigration, and you would actually increase immigration, then you can't attack them on that.

 

[Maledict]

It is! Maybe that's a good way to explain what I mean.

So yes, the Tories have failed in their target to reduce immigration to the tens of thousands (a lolsworthy target while we were still in the EU imo). That's true. But if you like immigration, and you would actually increase immigration, then you can't attack them on that.

It's the hypocrisy of politics. Labour attacking the tories for abandoning the triple lock last week was frankly disgusting.

 

[D4Danger]

I see Boris is out today signing us up to another war. That's great.