That'd open the door for quite a few new stories.
Dragon Ball Super |OT6| Put your back into it.
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That'd open the door for quite a few new stories.
Zeno and Whis senior said the gods will be erased as they stand
I mean, it's about the methodology and quantity of mental gymnastics you want to do to make sense of the power scaling. What it comes down to is whether Goku/Vegeta's power constantly fluctuating changing on an arc-by-arc basis as a result of the respective characters' agencies or creative liberties on the part of the writers.
Do you want to keep saying Goku is transforming to higher, more inefficient SSJ forms only to power down to below his base form to create an even match...for reasons. Surely you see how dumb this is from a narrative standpoint. That gives anyone the avenue to say that Goku could've gotten mandhandled by 17 because he powered down his SSJ form to farmer-with-shotgun levels, then 17 forced him to to get super serious at Hercule-tier SSB form. To keep hand-waving away every Goku fight you have to keep double-downing on the "holding back" angle and in doing so confront the terrible writing in Super.
Or just concede to the more likely scenario that the writers have consistently adapted his level to fit the events of the specific arcs as they were working on them and don't give two shits about western fanboys wanting a non-contradictory display of power scaling feats? The Krillin fight was clearly different to Gohan vs. Goku. The latter had direct exchanges of blows while the former was mostly indirect tomfoolery on the part of Krillin. I joked that Krillin was stronger than SSJ Goku but really he was forced to transform to simply not get pushed off the edge of the building by the beam he was blocking as per the rules of the match. It wasn't necessarily to avoid getting damaged. Blue was then subsequently shown as a display of power. We don't know the exact mechanics of beam struggles, anyways. It's not like Goku's Kamehameha was the biggest or strongest-looking we'd ever seen in the series at that point. Also, Buu didn't exert himself in his Goku spar, either.
This degree of holding back isn't something that ever happened in the original series. Characters didn't just transform only to power down to below their base forms for no reason. Goku/Gohan were walking around in SSJ1 as mastery training during the Cell arc but that's it. Even then they were never implied to be walking around at weak levels.
And yes, identifying retcons requires reading between the lines. The same way identifying Goku sandbagging does. Neither is explicitly stated, so either (or both in combination) of these statements could be valid. Just one is stupider than the other and 100% redundant by in-universe metrics.
zeno says a lot of things
dunno if Toriyama will want to go on without his new favorites
they are p specific in the Cell saga manga that Goku intended for SSJ1 to become their new base form. they are probably walking around as weak as they possible can get; the scene of Krillin throwing a rock at Goku is anime only, but as a lot of anime only stuff, could easily be canon now
at several points Goku or someone else was just holding back massively for different reasons; easily come to mind Cell in his fight with Goku, SSJ3 Goku vs Buu who said he could have handled Fat Buu back then -although he is prolly wrong- and 17 vs FTrunks in the future timeline. Piccolo in his fight vs Cell too. Was Goku just sandbagging everyone in the third tournament by not using flight? probably?
To be fair, who hasn't died in the main cast?
Mr. Satan/Pan are the only two who haven't bit it yet I think.
Pan hasn't died simply because there hasn't been any world ending bad guys showing up since Buu. Beerus just wanted a good fight and Goku/Vegeta were already stronger than Freeza so no one was ever in any real danger.
Crimsonlink
Member
Freiza has something to say about that. Though to be fair, Whis turned back time so that it never happened.
RocknRola
Member
Pan is still a baby give her some time! hehe
She already achieved a level beyond the average baby, soon she will actually die younger thant the cast
U10 wins, but since they are just, they wish all the universes back. Goku realizing his actions almost jeopardized everyone he loves decides to take a long break from fighting (to End of Z).
When original Buu nuked the Earth before Goku and Vegeta fought him on the planet of the kais. It's also where Gohan ate his only death. I mean, they were all unconscious so they may not have even noticed.
Well by anime, SSJ2 Goku and Vegeta > Ultimate Gohan and Gotenks in the Buu saga due to their fight in Buu's belly. In the manga, there was no indication they were below their base forms. Even then, it'd only be one example of this.
It's not the holding back itself that presents issues, it's literally transforming and then de-powering yourself to a level below vanilla. Talk about redundant to the max if thinking about it from an in-universe perspective. Not to mention how stupid Goku must think his opponents to be to believe that he's taking them seriously or knowing what's up and then being okay with this arbitrary presentation of his forms.
I recall that they were directly stated to be as strong as the originals...yeah. In any case, there's a lot of contradictions in anime-only material in general to take any of it seriously.
?
He has been to Kame House before, he knows where that is...
More importantly, he can also just call her directly.
1) So if he's told "I'm at capsule corp" and he inputs that in his smartphone, it literally tells him where it is, being the capital and all.
2) Why do you do this ? I don't get it. We've argued about it. I told you what I thought happened. To me he wasn't flying around the world anyway. You have virtually nothing to back your assumption up.
He felt something in the air. Literally.
He thought it was a volcano... Top tier sensing.
So again I don't get your point. Plus not only Buu would have triggered those "feels" potentially, but Trunks, Goten, Gohan, Vegeta, Goku, Dabura etc... so he probably shrugged it off if he did feel those (something neither of us can know).
I seriously need to sit for a few weekends and rewatch all of Kai.
so could he call her directly after sensing all the huge earth shattering fights going on in the buu saga?
I believed that interview said that he ran into them. Not that he visited the house.
If anything, I see 17 staying on his island until it's time to leave since Trunks and Goten are still with Vegeta, and they're supposed to watch the island while he's gone. He isn't suddenly going to leave to train with his sister.
How was anything I wrote mental gymnastics? I used what was actually shown in the show instead of using fan theories with more holes in it then Swiss cheese. Nothing has been shown that Goku and Vegeta power constantly fluctuating changing. It's the opposite, they have shown to be stronger since Goku went from needing Kaioken against Hit to not needing it and can used Kaioken more freely. They even say all time, 'you're gotten stronger'. And the writers don't just override themselves or each other. Seriously, where did this idea come from?
Goku uses his Super Saiyan for to test and train. He never uses it when he's serious as we seen in the Future Trunks Saga after Vegeta got impaled. He got manhandled by 17 because 17 was stronger than Super Saiyan Goku. Just like how Goku got manhandled by Toppo before going Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. This isn't hard to follow.
The writing in Super doesn't work like that. Writer don't just ignore what happened before, especially since Super has have the same writing staff since the Champa Saga and they even reference each other like Copy-Vegeta being mentioned by Goku when Vegeta was fighting Black. To pretend this like DC comic when things change depending on the writer isn't true in Super outside of some characterizations like how childish Goku can be. Power scaling isn't one of them.
Krillin actually made Goku moved, dodge, and he went Super Saiyan to keep from getting ringed out and he held back the Kamehameha from Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku for several seconds. Far more impressive than anything Future Trunks or Gohan did, yet no one claims Krillin is more powerful than those two. And why wouldn't Buu exert him. Goku sparred Buu specifically to see how strong he has become. So it would make no sense for Buu to hold back, especially since he knows Goku is stronger than him. If anything, Buu would want Goku to transformed instead of fight exactly at his level, otherwise Goku won't get the sense of how powerful Buu became. It would be just as pointless as 17 matching Super Saiyan Goku.
This isn't the original series, this is Super. Even then you have stuff like Goku getting hurt by rock and even Goku getting down by a laser as Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. I am also not getting 'they go below their transformed state when they transformed'. They hold back even transformed because if he didn't, Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku would have vaporized Krillin. No beam struggle needed. He also got his blast kicked away by 18.
No, retcon is something that is acknowledge in-universe, just like Vegito being retcon was talked about. Why would Super retcon the entire power scale, yet make no mention of this. And it isn't something Toriyama do. He doesn't nerf characters and when he does he tells us like Gohan. And we know Goku sandbag because not only have we seen Goku do it in the past, characters call him out on it.
I clearly have more back up that your silly "17 was in a cave" theory?
well 17 is not completely stupid. he MUST have associated that such a sensation was actually a fight, given that 16 was there to tell him so
and just not feeling nothing in the Buu saga when much stronger kis were going off? Dabura / Gohan is around Gohan / Cell and those two were way above Piccolo vs Cell
so basically 17 sensed a ton of "Volcanos going off", tried calling her sister, could not reach them and just sat on his island, going "this is fine"
just pointing out that 17 absence in Buu saga was super weird, particularly if he is ridic strong now
then again, he prolly started training after Buu
Icyflamez96
Member
Vegeta was too much of a degenerate to grab Trunks and Goten, and Goku went over to Dende to grab him and Hercule. Probably to save the Dragon Balls. Then Vegeta, being the degenerate that he was, yelled at Goku for not saving Trunks and Goten when Goku told HIM to do it and he didn't grab anyone 🤔
And no one even bothered thinking about poor Gohan.
Host Samurai
Member
Arc will end with Mr Satan stealing the wish and wishing to be the most powerful being in the DBVerse.
Host Samurai
Member
What if it was in 17's design to just grow in power automatically by design as time goes on? Just absorbing small amounts of energy through is pours to grow stronger. It's not a too far fetched theory that they can retcon to make the cyborgs stronger. 19/20 had that ability to a certain extent.
I just hope they pull it off well.
Icyflamez96
Member
I hope Yamcha gets to go as a spectator this time.
Lol it all feels like stuff I should remember, but it's been so long.
make it stop
Actually, to revisit an earlier conversation, about how Goten and Trunks became Super Saiyans too early. I just figured that if a parent had reached Super Saiyan during conception than the offspring would be born with the potential to become a Super Saiyan already unlocked. They child would also be much more comfortable using the form than the parent originally was since they don't have the anger association.
Which makes me imagine the same transference happening with all forms. Would you guys be happy with Mystic Pan and Super Saiyan Blue Bra?
Actually, to revisit an earlier conversation, about how Goten and Trunks became Super Saiyans too early. I just figured that if a parent had reached Super Saiyan during conception than the offspring would be born with the potential to become a Super Saiyan already unlocked. They child would also be much more comfortable using the form than the parent originally was since they don't have the anger association.
Which makes me imagine the same transference happening with all forms. Would you guys be happy with Mystic Pan and Super Saiyan Blue Bra?
maybe going super saiyan so early stunts your growth tho
Undead Fantasy
Member
I really hope they don't pull a 17 and have Tenshinhan fight toe and toe with Gohan or Piccolo.
Mister Wolf
Member
I mean, Pan's already flying and shit so she probably did inherit some of Gohan's powers.
only to be killed by a wayward ki blast
That is not hard to do.. lol
Undead Fantasy
Member
roflwaffles
Member
If they did it with 17, they might as well do it with every other character.
Undead Fantasy
Member
Then your reply makes even less sense.
He ran into them ? I mean, that doesn't make a lot of sense
? I'd assume it was a voluntary decision to meet them rather than casually running into them.And I didn't say he's training with her now (obviously not since we saw her with Krilin), virtually nothing stops Goku from telling Goten and Trunks about it by episode 90. If Gohan had time to finish his training and Goku recruited Tien, I'm sure he had time to tell Trunks and Goten about the gig at the very least then (even if they don't go directly).
So from that it could go either way.
You're assuming he would be concerned. Why would he be ? People are fighting ? Big whoop ? 1) Heroes are still on earth as far as he knows 2) Dragon Balls 3) He doesn't exactly see himself as a hero.
4) he felt something through the air, physically, it's entirely possible he didn't feel all of them depending on where they were and how they affected the planet.
5) He was in an ice area, so you'd expect him to shudder plenty already.
6) They didn't have mobile phones back then, 18 was probably not reachable anyway.
Far too many possibilities.
Awh, Elfy boy. <3
First of all, thanks for reducing to this what I took the time to elaborate upon because you wouldn't let go.
But then, your theory is contradicted by this :
On top of that, 17's dialogue regarding Buu in Super doesn't imply he had any idea what Buu was besides being killed by the genkidama. Which goes my way, not yours.
Sorry for being silly.
Ok so I'm curious, I thought we agreed to disagree.
You spontaneously bring that whole thing back up, out of nowhere, to add nothing besides some half assed attempt to call me out. Like we're gonna have another shitty argument (and it's shitty because we're forced to infer many things with almost no basis from the manga, while you are deliberately looking for plotholes based off biased and questionable assumptions, instead of finding what could make sense), just cause I said "17 can find capsule corp easily thanks to his smartphone." That looks like stirring shit to me. But okay.
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If he felt them, maybe he did yeah. Still don't see why he would give care honestly. I personally wouldn't, so someone like 17 who's pretty laid back probably wouldn't either (see above). Reminder that the saga wasn't some never ending battle with no pause, or a thing that lasted for months.
Plus your point would also work for Beerus,Frieza,Hit, Black, Trunks, when Goku turns Blue to open a pickles jar and basically anything else that came to earth : He doesn't care. I mean, that's how I see it, silly me !
Well considering Gohan can get up there in 6 hours, maybe he didn't need those 13 years after all, so as you said, he might have trained after being killed in the earth explosion.
Or you know, as made relatively clear in his depiction in Super, he doesn't care about playing the Hero part. That doesn't mean he would let people die if they were in danger right in front of him, but he is immature as 18 pointed out and minds his own business. It's also highly possible that he underestimated some potential threats, nobody's perfect. But on top of that, we disagree on whether he knew about Buu or not.
Undead Fantasy
Member
They didn't with Krillin. In direct combat he got his ass kicked.
I don't think he'll get a transformation. More likely they'll just make Ultimate Gohan on par/surpass Blue.
Piccolo isn't Goku, Tien matching Piccolo is a smaller gap than Krilin matching Goku.
Plus they stated Tien has special moves so even if he's not as powerful as Piccolo he can still make him lose due to ring outs or incapacitating him. Think about Kikoho on Cell, that's pretty nasty.
And he initially invented the solar flare too. Tien can be pretty powerful without being quite on Piccolo's level. Just like Piccolo can be dangerous to Goku with good strategy.
Undead Fantasy
Member
The gap is actually bigger. 100 times bigger.
And there's a reason I said direct combat. I have no problem with Tenshinhan beating Piccolo with some crazy new technique like Krillin did with Gohan.
No... No it's not... Goku = god vs Krilin , and Tien vs Piccolo ? I mean I don't really care, so have it your way
.Ah my bad. Yeah I don't think Tien will flat out be on Piccolo's level but I wouldn't be surprised if his techniques trap Piccolo by surprise to let Tien shine a bit and show he's not useless despite being weaker.
I kinda hope Piccolo benefits from his miraculous training though. But maybe he already used it and that's why he's past ssj2.
Undead Fantasy
Member
No... No it's not... Goku = god vs Krilin , and Tien vs Piccolo ? I mean I don't really care, so have it your way
Ah my bad. Yeah I don't think Tien will flat out be on Piccolo's level but I wouldn't be surprised if his techniques trap Piccolo by surprise to let Tien shine a bit and show he's not useless despite being weaker.
I kinda hope Piccolo benefits from his miraculous training though. But maybe he already used it and that's why he's past ssj2.
Well Piccolo beat SSJ2 Gohan and Gohan matched Goku at equal forms.
It is a bigger gap.
BlazinSkatinAxel
Member
They died when Freeza blew up the planet.
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